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Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

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[X] [Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should host them. They are the representatives of liberty, and do not wish to cause trouble besides. They have conducted themselves honorably, and present advantage to Eretria without creating a route to war.

The whole Epidamnian business was the result of Leontios' scheming, IIRC.

[X] [Immigration] Manpower. What the city needs above all is people, to work its fields and fight its wars. The emissaries of the city ought to look for healthy, hale, and strong men who would be willing to come to Eretria to work as tenant labourers for merchants and farmers. These men shall girdle the city and be the legs that carry it forward [If successful, higher number of low-skill immigrants with higher overall immigration].

[X] [Prytanis] The Prytanis will remain a chosen citizen.
[X] [Standardization] Allow a standard presentation of grievances every eight years, counting from 346 OL.
[X] [Marriage] To place the Metic father at the same level as his citizen counterpart as unacceptable.
[X] [Citizenship] If the city should bound citizenship grants by strict rules, then Metic heroes should be given it.
[X] [Juries] Allow Metics to appear on the city's juries if the situation involves their peers as defendent.
 
On marriage, consider the theoretical situation of a citizen marrying a metic. If we allow metic fathers the same rights as his citizen counterpart then we create the potential situation where a metic could interfere in the marriage of the citizen. This, I am sure, would be a monstrous imposition on the rights of a citizen and sets a dangerous precedent. As a father though, I do empathise with their concerns. Perhaps a middle path can be charted, allow the metic father these rights where all concerned are metics.

On juries I have similar concerns, should a citizen plaintiff with a metic defendant be forced to present his complaints to a jury not of his peers? Let the metics be allowed to sit as part of a jury on cases involving metics alone.

As it stands I must vote thus:

[X] [Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should host them.
[X] [Immigration] Talent.
[X] [Prytanis] Allow them to elect a Prytanis among themselves.
[X] [Standardization] Allow a standard presentation of grievances every eight years, counting from 346 OL.
[X] [Marriage] To place the Metic father at the same level as his citizen counterpart as unacceptable.
[X] [Citizenship] If the city should bound citizenship grants by strict rules, then Metic heroes should be given it.
[X] [Juries] Citizens are just as good a judge as metics, and there is no need to involve them.
 
[X] [Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should host them.
[X] [Immigration] Talent

[X] [Prytanis] The Prytanis will remain a chosen citizen.
[X] [Standardization] Allow a standard presentation of grievances every eight years, counting from 346 OL.
[X] [Marriage] To place the Metic father at the same level as his citizen counterpart as unacceptable.
[X] [Citizenship] If the city should bound citizenship grants by strict rules, then Metic heroes should be given it.
[X] [Juries] Allow Metics to appear on the city's juries if the situation involves their peers as defendant

Personally I favour talent as a way to increase our chances of getting Metics who might prove worthy of citizenship.
We have plenty of cheap labour right now.
It may also help improve our prestige if we manage to attract great artists and thinkers from across the Greek world.
 
Cetashwayo said:
Please don't use plan votes for this just for consistency's sake :)
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Sorry, didn't want to copy his vote and delete his explanations due to lazyness :p

[X] [Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should host them. They are the representatives of liberty, and do not wish to cause trouble besides. They have conducted themselves honorably, and present advantage to Eretria without creating a route to war.

[X] [Prytanis] The Prytanis will remain a chosen citizen.
[X] [Standardization] Allow a standard presentation of grievances every eight years, counting from 346 OL.
[X] [Marriage] To place the Metic father at the same level as his citizen counterpart as unacceptable.
[X] [Citizenship] If the city should bound citizenship grants by strict rules, then Metic heroes should be given it.
[X] [Juries] Allow Metics to appear on the city's juries if the situation involves their peers as defendent.
 
[X] [Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should host them. They are the representatives of liberty, and do not wish to cause trouble besides. They have conducted themselves honorably, and present advantage to Eretria without creating a route to war.

[X] [Immigration] Manpower. What the city needs above all is people, to work its fields and fight its wars. The emissaries of the city ought to look for healthy, hale, and strong men who would be willing to come to Eretria to work as tenant labourers for merchants and farmers. These men shall girdle the city and be the legs that carry it forward [If successful, higher number of low-skill immigrants with higher overall immigration].

[X] [Prytanis] The Prytanis will remain a chosen citizen.
[X] [Standardization] Allow a standard presentation of grievances every eight years, counting from 346 OL.
[X] [Marriage] Reform the laws so the Metic Father has the same rights in the marriage of his daughter.
[X] [Citizenship] If the city should bound citizenship grants by strict rules, then Metic heroes should be given it.
[X] [Juries] Allow Metics to appear on the city's juries if the situation involves their peers as defendent.
 
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On the marriage issue, can we not elevate the second class citizens to the same level of our actual peoples in such a blindingly obvious way? The text itself directly equates it to infringing in the rights of the Citizens, it's a minor reform, and should not cause too much strife to dismiss. I know some of you want to go full hog on this, but we need to compromise, and the Marriage issue is the most glaringly obvious infringement on Citizen rights whilst also being a minor issue, one that can be dismissed more easily than others.

We should not jump headlong into this.
 
[X] [Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should host them.
[X] [Immigration] Talent

[X] [Prytanis] The Prytanis will remain a chosen citizen.
[X] [Standardization] Allow a standard presentation of grievances every eight years, counting from 346 OL.
[X] [Marriage] To place the Metic father at the same level as his citizen counterpart as unacceptable.
[X] [Citizenship] If the city should bound citizenship grants by strict rules, then Metic heroes should be given it.
[X] [Juries] Allow Metics to appear on the city's juries if the situation involves their peers as defendant
 
What exactly are the implications of allowing Metic fathers the same rights as citizens over their daughters' marriages? This is perhaps a situation where having the representatives of the demes express their opinions of the choices might have been really useful to help establish what the stakes really are.
 
Is there any sort of historical precedence for Metic Heroes getting citizenship? Or is it just an Eretria gonna Eretria thing?
 
Cavalier said:
What exactly are the implications of allowing Metic fathers the same rights as citizens over their daughters' marriages? This is perhaps a situation where having the representatives of the demes express their opinions of the choices might have been really useful to help establish what the stakes really are.
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To me, from the text given, it's essentially gifting the Metics a right exclusive to Citizens for a good long time on a wide basis. Even in its own blurb it's noted that it places them on a similar level. Which is where I draw my concern from, as Metics are a second class citizenry. To start outright elevating them so blatantly by sharing such obvious, and IC noted, rights may cause some controversy and conflict.

Thankfully, is seems the Metics view this as a lesser concern, so we may be able to dismiss it easily.

Though I too would've preferred a bit of debate from our citizens on wether or not we should grant these, to give an IC look at the Citizens opinions on this.
 
Stealthy said:
Is there any sort of historical precedence for Metic Heroes getting citizenship? Or is it just an Eretria gonna Eretria thing?
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No, there were several dozen citizenship rewards given throughout the 4th century BCE in Athenai to notable Metics.

Cavalier said:
What exactly are the implications of allowing Metic fathers the same rights as citizens over their daughters' marriages? This is perhaps a situation where having the representatives of the demes express their opinions of the choices might have been really useful to help establish what the stakes really are.
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It's mostly a legal thing granting the father the ability to initiate a divorce in very specific circumstances as was the case in some Greek states. As is customary the representatives of the demes do not express their opinion on this issue, but in general the opinion among prominent members of the demoi that this is not a great concern, though they feel the strong messagaging used by the Metics are to their disadvantage in this case and some citizens have responded unhappily to it; hence the wording of the rejection.
 
[X] [Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should send them away. Every step we take away from neutrality is a step we take to conflict. No matter the cost and no matter how simple it seems to be, we must not get involved under any circumstances in the squabbles of Hellas.
Mnemon is a great man, but he is known among all to be reckless with his kindness, and in all other things besides. He claims that"It will send a strong warning to Korinthos that their recent behavior in the sea has been unacceptable". What can that be a warning of, if not war? We have no other means with which to hurt Korinthos, for they already spurn our bountiful markets. Obander has the right of it; we do not know these people, and any insult we give Korinth shall surely inspire rage in equal amounts to fear."

[X] [Immigration] Talent. The city cannot waste its time searching for the barest and most boorish men. If the city is to become one of glory and renown among all Hellenes, then it must attract those who are made of finer stuff; artisans, professionals, intellectuals and playwrights who can make Eretria a true hub of culture [If successful, lower number of high-skill immigrants with the chance to eventually produce another luxury trade route].
I have already spoken of the dire consequences of bringing more metics to a city already overflowing with filth such that it has reached the very temples! If we are to do so, let us at least bring the least number, and among those the ones most able to pay for a sewer! As the construction on the Hill begins, 99 of every 100 talents brought in by the tax collecters now flow out of the treasury the day they flow in, and in this time of great expense even a single craftsman's shop may make the difference between prosperity and desperation.
 
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[X] [Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should host them. They are the representatives of liberty, and do not wish to cause trouble besides. They have conducted themselves honorably, and present advantage to Eretria without creating a route to war.
[X] [Immigration] Loyalty. What good are fieldhands who plot against you, or artists who sing one song among citizens and another among metics? If the city is to grow, it needs those who are loyal and grateful. Look among the refugees of war, or those from old Euboaea, and those who embrace Eretria's vision and government [If successful, random assortment of immigrants grateful to the city with random effects].
[X] [Prytanis] The Prytanis will remain a chosen citizen.
[X] [Standardization] Allow a standard presentation of grievances every eight years, counting from 346 OL.
[X] [Marriage] Reform the laws so the Metic Father has the same rights in the marriage of his daughter.
[X] [Citizenship] If the city should bound citizenship grants by strict rules, then Metic heroes should be given it.
[X] [Juries] Citizens are just as good a judge as metics, and there is no need to involve them.

Edit: Changed vote.
 
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So I've been rereading the previous 2 threads and I just came across the fact that Hanno went on a voyage beyond the pillars of Heracles.
That's after the voyage he made in our history right?
Did anything come from that in the end or did he just vanish?
 
[X] [Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should host them. They are the representatives of liberty, and do not wish to cause trouble besides. They have conducted themselves honorably, and present advantage to Eretria without creating a route to war.
[X] [Immigration] Talent. The city cannot waste its time searching for the barest and most boorish men. If the city is to become one of glory and renown among all Hellenes, then it must attract those who are made of finer stuff; artisans, professionals, intellectuals and playwrights who can make Eretria a true hub of culture [If successful, lower number of high-skill immigrants with the chance to eventually produce another luxury trade route].
[X] [Prytanis] The Prytanis will remain a chosen citizen.
[X] [Standardization] Allow a standard presentation of grievances every eight years, counting from 346 OL.
[X] [Marriage] Reform the laws so the Metic Father has the same rights in the marriage of his daughter.
[X] [Citizenship] If the city should bound citizenship grants by strict rules, then Metic heroes should be given it.
[X] [Juries] Allow Metics to appear on the city's juries if the situation involves their peers as defendant.
 
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So speaks Glaukommes, son of Perixeontes, a hoplite and son of a hoplite:

Citizens, what is Eretria the Furthest? It is excellence and liberty! In furthest Italia, westwards and far from Hellas, we have made ourselves not a refuge but a home. We have created not an island of freedom but a beacon of Hellenic liberty, we have made for ourselves not a life of eking out another day of meager existence against the endless tides, but thrived and tamed the tides to an Eretrian ship. The wise captain does not challenge Poseidon's whims, but accepts them with calm tranquility and steel-set resolve. The wise captain does not reject sailors based on their origin, but their skill alone. He knows that only skill, craftsmanship and the will of the eternal and immutable gods save him from the waves. The ship of Eretria the Furthest is excellently crafted, and she is beloved of the gods, as long as she knows her place as well. So why should we reject skill when it comes to our port? I, for one, see no reason to shackle ourselves to this, for is it not in our constitution and in our history that we set free the slaves at our origin. Does this not please the gods, with how far they have let us come? The first breath of Furthest Eretria was a breath of liberty, an exuberant sigh of eternal eleutheria. We are free Hellenes, let us exult in that fact.

Therefore, let the Epidamnians come to us and take part of that eleutheria which we call our own. Let them take joy in Furthest Eretria, for have they not conducted themselves as proper Hellenes? As good men who love their wives and have their polis in their hearts? Absolutely. Eris may send the eastern winds to carry misfortune with them, but misfortune is often accompanied by fortune for the man who treats it with proper bearings. I gladly welcome the Epidamnians to Furthest Eretria, knowing that the wind in her sails shall not betray her as long as the gods are respected and treated with the respect they deserve. Similarly, I do not consider Eretria fit to boorishly call for any man who can work with the lowest of tools; Eretria is far too beautiful and grand for petty men. No, I say that we call to our streets and assemblies, the great men, the beautiful men, the clever men. The artisans and philosophoi, the poets and the playwrights. Eretria is a libertine beacon of light in Italia, but she must be a sun, illuminating it in its entirety with her culture and enlightenment. The entire Hellenic world must know the well-behaved nature of Eretrian women, the culture of her citizens, the grandeur of her monuments and the piety of her populace.

Finally, I am of the opinion that we, as citizenry, as a polis, must bear in mind that while our metics are important and a key to our great success along with the virtue of our citizens and they shall receive the rights they deserve, we must keep in mind a necessary moderation or find ourselves lost in the myopic madness of endless reform. We should aim to not cast our own city up for lot as sacrifice to discord-sowing Eris but instead cultivate the safe and strong winds that the wise captain seeks on his journey.

[x] [Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should host them. They are the representatives of liberty, and do not wish to cause trouble besides. They have conducted themselves honorably, and present advantage to Eretria without creating a route to war.

[X] [Immigration] Talent. The city cannot waste its time searching for the barest and most boorish men. If the city is to become one of glory and renown among all Hellenes, then it must attract those who are made of finer stuff; artisans, professionals, intellectuals and playwrights who can make Eretria a true hub of culture [If successful, lower number of high-skill immigrants with the chance to eventually produce another luxury trade route].

[X] [Prytanis] The Prytanis will remain a chosen citizen.
[X] [Standardization] Allow a standard presentation of grievances every eight years, counting from 346 OL.
[X] [Marriage] To place the Metic father at the same level as his citizen counterpart as unacceptable.
[X] [Citizenship] If the city should bound citizenship grants by strict rules, then Metic heroes should be given it.
[X] [Juries] Allow Metics to appear on the city's juries if the situation involves their peers as defendent.
 
NavySeel said:
Honestly the introduction of potatoes would probably be bad for us they grow well in northern Europe... so a surge in the population of Germanic and Celtic tribes might be the result of that.
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They are tolerant of poor soil, resistant to being trampled by rampaging soldiers, and provide huge amounts of calories per acre. In a game like this, they're actually kinda OP. :p
 
[X] [Epidamnians] Eretria Eskhata should host them. They are the representatives of liberty, and do not wish to cause trouble besides. They have conducted themselves honorably, and present advantage to Eretria without creating a route to war.
[X] [Immigration] Loyalty. What good are fieldhands who plot against you, or artists who sing one song among citizens and another among metics? If the city is to grow, it needs those who are loyal and grateful. Look among the refugees of war, or those from old Euboaea, and those who embrace Eretria's vision and government [If successful, random assortment of immigrants grateful to the city with random effects].
[X] [Prytanis] The Prytanis will remain a chosen citizen.
[X] [Standardization] Allow a standard presentation of grievances every eight years, counting from 346 OL.
[X] [Marriage] Reform the laws so the Metic Father has the same rights in the marriage of his daughter.
[X] [Citizenship] If the city should bound citizenship grants by strict rules, then Metic heroes should be given it.
[X] [Juries] Allow Metics to appear on the city's juries if the situation involves their peers as defendent.

"The divine thunderer Zeus, who has already expressed his displeasure at our impiety, commands hospitality and sanctuary be given to the stranger and exile. This is a sacred charge that a polis forgets only at its peril. These Epidamnians come before us bereft of their homeland due to the actions of our rivals. Only a cur would turn away those who looked to our city as an inspiration and were oppressed in turn by our common enemy. Let the exiles have shelter and honor in our city; and if Korinthos should be so determined to hound them beyond the injustices they have already committed they should know our fine triremes and expert rowers can upend the balance of their war with Kerkyra in the Adriatic. Indeed as it is not in the interests of our city to have Korinthos win victory over Kerkyra it might yet come to a contest of strength and will. And should that be the case restoring these exiles to their homeland would be of immense value to Eretrea.

But these exiles present not just an opportunity but an example to guide our deliberations on the sort of metic we should look to encourage to our city. These are dangerous and troubling times. To recruit indiscriminately is to allow the risk of infiltration by traitors or spies. Lest one think I am paranoid, this war in Hellas has been marked by the defection of polises from one side or another by the actions of domestic factions serving foreign ends. The fate of the democracy of Epidamnos is an object lesson in that regard. We should recruit primarily from those we can trust to be grateful to our city. We will find strong backs as well as strong minds, but most importantly we will find the strength and nobility of spirit we need to keep an even keel in our city. The grievances of the Metic Assembly are a warning enough that in time a population that feels itself responsible for the success of the polis will demand more rights. Let us not run the risk of metics overstepping their bounds, either, in this period of great danger.

But as for the presented grievances, we must dismiss the demand for a Metic representative out of hand. We would not dare violate the sanctity of the Assembly by allowing a non-citizen to be present. But it is fitting to establish a regular period in which the Metic Assembly may present its grievances and issues before us. Such certainty is advantageous to them as well as to us. And for these petty issues I care not to quarrel right now. There is justice in those claims. Perhaps the rebuke we deliver for their demand of a representative will be sufficient chastisement for their arrogance. But that makes clear we should be careful dealing with the metics going forward and should be all the more reason to bring in only trustworthy new Metics.

Phocion son of Aristedes the Younger, thinks this the best of courses for the city."
 
Cavalier said:
And for these petty issues I care not to quarrel right now. There is justice in those claims. Perhaps the rebuke we deliver for their demand of a representative will be sufficient chastisement for their arrogance. But that makes clear we should be careful dealing with the metics going forward and should be all the more reason to bring in only trustworthy new Metics.
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You call it arrogance but ebuke them with only a single denial! They ask for the rights reserved for a citizen of Eretria! They ask to be as Zeus over all marriages! They are Metics! Our brethren yes, but there is a sacred right for our citizens! And to blatantly dismiss the gifting away of one of the rights we obtained under the wisdom of the Divine Marriage, as simply a petty issue? I disagree with your uncaring nature!

No! Let us not elevate the Metics in such a way! Even you yourself admit their arrogance! You do not reward a boy for the foolish boldness of youth! We should not reward them with elevation here!

Many a man would find themselves feeling greatly lessened, indeed, even slighted, to see a Metic enjoy the same exact rights as they do! Many may become discontent and aggravated, do we not give them the structure they desired? A position in courts? And access to more citizenship for those who display Arete? Now they wish for our rights as well as their own?

Do not insult our fellow citizens with your uncaring dismissal! Do not allow the Metics to be gifted a divine and sacred right for the act of arrogance!

So speaks Ajax, son of Lalage, if the Ekdromoi!
 
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