Darik29
Verified Delicious
What, the game? Isn't it on sale like every other month or so though?
Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)
- Thread starter Cetashwayo
- Start date
- Original Alt. History
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- Tags
- ancient greece alternate history empire builder civ quest democracy gods save us granary management hubris it's an eretrian thing. let lose the weasels of war lithocracy lithocracy is my fetish maximum hellene my big fat greek divine wedding this granary aint gonna fill itself cetash unwinnable
What, the game? Isn't it on sale like every other month or so though?
- Location
- Texas
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Yeah. This is actually a big reason in my voting for the Exoria guy for the, uh... speaker-to-foreigners. It's not necessarily that I consider his foreign policy to be best, though it's not bad, but... Well.
It would probably be a bad idea to elect a guy with Friendliness 2 to be our arch-diplomat. That is almost certainly not going to end well.
I'm sure that a low-Friendliness person can nonetheless be effective as a diplomat, sometimes, but it's not the way I'd want to bet.
Speaking for myself, I genuinely like the Exoria domestic policy platform and I was genuinely torn between him and Kyros. I consider both sewers and actually engaging with the metics to be important.
Aside from some myths floating around about a Captain Hellas who likes to chuck his round bronze shield at things, probably not.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Same for me, honestly. As is, without the augury, I would really much rather have the sewers than the temple, especially before the Antipatri set up their immigration program and bring to the city a sample of Italia's finest plagues. As I noted, it does increase the risk of the spy mission being a disaster to not go with the Antipatri, but I'd accept that increased risk for the decreased plague risk.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
The cost. Fixing the temple gives us 5 years with a net income of 13 talents with our current income.
As my father's brother once told me, Barbaroi are like a pack of unruly mongrels.
It requires a stern will and a firm brow like a granite cliff to bring them to heel!
I hearkened to his words, for he had once led a very successful trade expedition to the keltoi, returning with almost half his original numbers!
According to my uncle, it may also help to reward barbaroi with small pieces of liver, although I suspect he may have only meant mongrels in that instance.
The strategic voting to reduce a given candidate's vote share because of fear of lack of diversity's going to be pretty hilarious when rendered IC.
Where Europe is concerned I think the main force for homogenizing stricter gender roles might be the Roman hegemony? They had a very particular view on masculinity compared to anyone else around prior to them, and the Church took a lot of its culture off Roman institutions.
That, and the overall relaxation of traditionally gendered jobs as society got a lot more complicated.
Really, a surprisingly number of ancient cultures more or less went with "If you can do a traditionally male job, you are perfectly fine if you dress up and do it as a man, and you will be considered a man for all intents and purposes, though nobody expects you to successfully sire a child and you don't get to drop that role ever." And somewhat less common(not sure if the historians aren't looking for it, or if the very common macho warrior cultures reject it) is the reverse.
Where Europe is concerned I think the main force for homogenizing stricter gender roles might be the Roman hegemony? They had a very particular view on masculinity compared to anyone else around prior to them, and the Church took a lot of its culture off Roman institutions.
That, and the overall relaxation of traditionally gendered jobs as society got a lot more complicated.
- Location
- Orlando, Florida
Hmm. The way Greek culture treats women performing male roles is very reminiscent of the Qunari in Dragon Age, who, due to their jobs being strictly gendered, essentially force people of gender opposite the job to live as the opposite gender in order to perform said job. Essentially, both cultures force opposite gender workers to become "transgender," in a sense, despite what their actual gender may be.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
I think it would be a mistake to assume that friendliness is a catch-all stat for diplomacy. Never did I actually say that, nor is friendliness the most important attribute for a diplomat in antiquity. The primary requirement of any diplomatic mission in the ancient world is that it inspires respect among those it is dealing with, which can be gained in any number of ways. Strength, honesty, and steadfastness are all more attractive qualities than mere gregariousness by itself. Respect is necessary to establish a common ground of negotiation.
- Location
- Southern Virginia
"This dude is honorable and will keep his promises and holds great sway with his people" is probably the best diplomatic impression in the period. Being a stern fountain of rectitude who displays the virtues of austerity and manliness is quite possibly the best characteristic for a diplomat in most cases.
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
so what you're saying is that we have to signal credibility
- Location
- Southern Virginia
Given the absence of existing diplomatic institutions and persistent contact, as well as the primitive nature of diplomatic norms... yeah pretty much.
- Location
- Europe
[X] Proboulos: Kyros Gennadios (Demos Antipatria)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Athenagoras Symmachos (Demos Drakonia)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Athenagoras Symmachos (Demos Drakonia)
And there isn't an Ares/Aphrodite match up yet?
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- Location
- Sydney
[X] Proboulos: Theron Archippos (Demos Exoria)
Our city is in great need of a sewer system.
[X] Xenoparakletor: Athenagoras Symmachos (Demos Drakonia)
No mercy to pirates
Our city is in great need of a sewer system.
[X] Xenoparakletor: Athenagoras Symmachos (Demos Drakonia)
No mercy to pirates
Spartans were supposed to be the best musicians and dancers in all of Greece. (Partly, this is because both helped Spartan hopilites coordinate better in the phalanx, since such a tight interlaced formation of men, shields and spears gets in trouble fast if the men aren't dancing to the same rhythm.)
And Sparta seems to have been pretty far from totalitarian. The two kings had pretty limited power outside of war time, the Euphorate, Gerousia and kings seem to have been able to keep each-other in check. So it was a very conservative oligarchic caste system - and Athens, while it won the propaganda war - wasn't so different. In some ways it was a more open society, was in other ways very much not. Also, Athens behaved like real asses through the whole Peloponnesian War.
In short, Eretria is the best of all Greek cities, and while Athens and Sparta each have their Arete, Eretria outdoes them both, as proven by the rapid rise of the city.
In order to increase the Arete of the city, I will vote for these two excellent citizens:
[X] Proboulos: Kyros Gennadios (Demos Antipatria)
A solid man, and we ignore the warnings of Zeus at our peril.
[X] Xenoparakletor: Athenagoras Symmachos (Demos Drakonia)
The glory and magnificence of his past achievements speak for themselves. When Athenagoras says he will bring the pirates to heel and secure for us the amber trade, I believe him. And is trade not the lifeblood of our city? Let the blood flow more strongly and our enemies shall rightly fear us!
Though I believe that the courage of Mnemnon Keylonos of Demos Exoria would mean he would also do great things for the city.
fasquardon
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This was a large part of why I argued that it would probably be mistaken to assume that Athenagoras Symmachos would make a poor diplomat for the trade mission to the Venetian lagoon. Nothing in his description says that he's a buffoon, or offensive, just that he's forcefully spoken when putting his point across and can be quite direct. In a trade negotiation where you want to talk brass tacks, so to speak, and in the context of diplomacy in antiquity where a stentorian demeanor and appearing forthright is important, that's not necessarily a disadvantage.
The Golden Ram being the wealthiest of all the candidates also honestly probably does not hurt when we're talking about a trade mission for a luxury good. He will have experience with such things, and rich men are also often ironically much less vulnerable to bribery.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
I will leave the vote open for a while yet. Working on the update right now, but I'll work on the parts dependent on the other office results last, allowing people to continue casting votes until I officially call it.
To be clear, I don't hate the idea of the Exoria getting the Xenoparakletor seat either; an alliance with the Messapii and isolating the Dauni aren't bad, although I would quite like the amber trade route and a punitive expedition against the pirates. Especially the pirates, honestly; it sends a bad signal if we don't respond to something like that.
It's probably better though that it's a reasonably split vote between them and the Demos Drakonia for Xenoparakletor, as it appears to be heading, so that one faction doesn't end up getting totally marginalized with potentially Exciting effects on our politics. On a pragmatic level I also like a lot of the Drakonid proposals, so I'd prefer if they stayed part of the discourse, so to speak.
It's probably better though that it's a reasonably split vote between them and the Demos Drakonia for Xenoparakletor, as it appears to be heading, so that one faction doesn't end up getting totally marginalized with potentially Exciting effects on our politics. On a pragmatic level I also like a lot of the Drakonid proposals, so I'd prefer if they stayed part of the discourse, so to speak.
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- He/Him
For the campaign proposals, user motions still exist. The ideas that the Drakonids campaigned with are already discussed in the assembly, it's new trade based proposals that we are losing out on by shoving them into a corner votes wise (well, that and city officials who support those proposals/ were picked to implement them, i'd imagine the Exoria really want the Chief of Public Lands onboard for their pet project, while Drakonia want the agoromonos to be on board with their plan for a calendar tracking team and exoria would likely prefer them to focus on the office of barbarian commerce).
- Location
- United States
I also don't like the idea of letting the pirates hang around for another couple of years, but ultimately considered securing our home front ASAP so we can fight overseas without a major threat at the very least seriously distracting us in a place we really can't ignore. Making sure our borders are secure, we're ready to snap up the Messapii when they collapse, the Duani or our vassals aren't up to some shit, and laying the stones for a campaign against Taras all just seemed more important and time critical.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
You can't use user motions to get the campaign proposal of a different party. User motions aren't meant to grant the ekklesia such executive power except in an emergency; they're effectively a vote of no confidence in a given party. However, nor would I design it so that a specific campaign was really stupid and ignored a critical issue, forcing buyer's remorse on people when they get the unavoidable consequences of not responding to some crisis they thought wasn't a crisis.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Leukos the accountant:
"Sadly, a granite cliff has few wits behind it."
I mean, I'm not saying "friendliness is the diplomacy stat," I'm not an oversimplifying stupid child.
I'm saying "Friendliness is an important component of successful diplomacy, and low Friendliness is probably on the whole anti-correlated with diplomatic success."
Let's look at the candidates, slightly rephrasing their stats in terms of adjectives rather than numbers (Low = 1-2, Mediocre = 3, Average = 4-5, Substantial = 6, High = 7-8)...
[] Xenoparakletor: Athenagoras Symmachos (Demos Drakonia)
Substantial Glory, Average Lawfulness, Low Friendliness, Mediocre Courage, High Magnificence, Mediocre Wisdom
[] Xenoparakletor: Obander Eupraxis (Demos Antipatria)
Average Glory, High Lawfulness, Low Friendliness, Mediocre Courage, Low Magnificence, Substantial Wisdom
[] Xenoparakletor: Mnemnon Keylonos (Demos Exoria)
Low Glory, Mediocre Lawfulness, Substantial Friendliness, High Courage, Average Magnificence, Mediocre Wisdom
Leukos the Accountant:
"Surely, any of the virtues can make the success of a citizen among foreigners, and a deficiency of any of the virtues can seal that citizen's ruin. But for the post of xenoparakletor, I'd still choose Athenagoras or Mnemnon over Obander. Obander is wise and honorable, but of modest means and not widely liked. I would expect him to struggle, and in my heart, I expect that his plans to win over the Metapontines would be likely to fail for these reasons. Desirable though their friendship would be, I do not think Obander is the man to win it."
"Athenagoras can probably succeed in negotiations in the lagoon of the Enetoi, with showy displays of an aristocrat's arete- his glory and magnificence- to overawe any who care not for his words. Besides which, he is a Drakonid, and the Drakonids have long delivered on their promises in matters of trade. If this were the time for trading, I would likely vote for Athenagoras. But Eretria's enemies, barbarian and Greek alike, are growing stronger. We need allies, not just coin, to resist them."
"Obander is wise, and sees this, but I do not think he could accomplish the task. I believe that Mnemnon, with words of passionate fire, is likely to achieve more among the Messapii than Obander among the Metapontines. To be sure, when it comes to other virtues reinforcing his ethos while he appeals to foreigners, Mnemnon has fewer feats of glory and magnificence to fall back upon- only his dauntless valor. But then, he needs that sort of arete less, when his own arete lies most especially in his power to inspire the hearts of men- precisely the task which he now proposes to undertake!"
"It is not that Mnemnon is head and shoulders a better man than his esteemed rivals for the post, it is that he is most suited for the post he seeks. Ten years ago, I would have voted for Athenagoras over Mnemnon, for ten years ago our enemies were weaker and in greater disarray. And were we seeking to appoint an inspector of the public finances, or an agent to assess the public lands, I would vote for Obander and call the matter closed."
"But for the task of persuading foreigners to march with us, that the valor of our own arms can overmatch that of the Tarentines without being overcome by their numbers? For this, I support Mnemnon, who seeks to do so, over Athenagoras, who does not."
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