I've said enough on the matter, no need to rehash it all.

[X] Ret-con the last update to give you guys the chance to speak up better

I feel this is most healthy option available to us. Last update didn't feel like Viserys. We should have a chance to rectify that and then move forward. I also see it as, essentially, a compromise vote. It gives some freedom back now that we know the new rules, and lets us move forward with them known.

I'm all for that.
 
Please don't. This is just stupid. They already know about all those apocalypses - they just think that we're one of them!
And they've already fought all of those enemies (except maybe the Sultan). They just think that a strong Faith and a realm full of mid-level paladins and Clerics are an appropriate solution.
You won't convince them of anything except the size of your ego.
Does the faith even have clerics? Thought the Faith worked differently, with them having only Uber powerful chosens.
 
I really dislike retcons that aren't made to fix actual mechanical errors, but there was a genuine issue with the previous chapter. It simply didn't feel right, like Danelle was speaking to a Viserys shaped person, but one who didn't actually have social skills. I understand that she was justifiably upset about the situation, but Viserys is almost literally able to sell water to a drowning man. He should have at least been able to finish speaking rather than let her run roughshod over him.

I don't think there was anything wrong with @Snowfire's vote leading up to it, either. It just wasn't implemented well.
[X] First Form Dragon Emperor Presentation Style
-[X] "Given your own lack of protections from seeking magics, I hope you will not take it amiss if I secure us from prying eyes. You have my word that I will abide by the peace of the Conclave." Bloodwish Mage's Private Sanctum on the room. Then drop the mask of Dywen, using glamour to hide the mundane disguise Tyene has equipped us with. Security, security, security. Also casually dropping a Fifth/Seventh Circle spell makes an...impression.
-[X] Check with Dany to make sure that Danelle's companions are unharmed, as you expect. "Your friends are safe and whole or soon will be, for there are many accomplished healers among my Companions. I apologise for the distress they and you have experienced, but it truly was a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time." Quick and to the point. There's no real need for formality here, and she doesn't want any. And they will have experienced distress, there's no may about it. Settle that matter swiftly.
--[X] Whilst checking on Dany, ensure that the strike team take as much as they can of any sign of battle from the place, including hairs, blood, etc. These are to be stored in the event of possible future need in the Mind Blank chamber. Take all appropriate precautions when acquiring these components.
-[X] "I never intended to strike against you, Danelle, nor wished to meet in this fashion. In fact, given all I have heard of you and your companions, and the warding set upon this city by your hand, I had hoped that we might be able to find something in the way of common cause. And yet," shake your head, dismissing the notion for now in the face of the matter at hand. More of the above, but also showing what we know. Some of that is important.
-[X] "Whilst I have not sworn an oath to your gods, I did not come here intending to make a mockery of your faith. I have a duty to the peoples of Westeros just as grave as your own, and my only goal in Oldtown has been to prevent the needless bloodshed which I feared would result of Lucan Longfield came to hold sway over the Faith of the Seven." Blunt truth. Nothing more.
--[X] "These past days have shown me that he is not the man that rumours and supposition would make him to be, and perhaps that is a lesson I should have learned already, given my own experience as a target of unjust accusation and baseless rumours. And yet," let the true, deep concern we have for Westeros as it stands so perilously on the edge of security show, "some of those fears still remains. I know that there is fear among those here that he will call for the recreation of the Faith Militant, and despite what has been shown untrue by the man, that I do believe." This is also true. We've misjudged the man from rumours, but there are some core issues that remain.
--[X] "And if that happens, Danelle, those who reign from Kings Landing will refuse to accept it, and even the High Septon might deny the findings of the Conclave, as is his right. Regardless of the specifics, the result will be war. With the lords who will not countenance a new Faith Militant, with the North when failure leads to fanaticism against those who do not share the faith - I have seen such things come to pass. And, inevitably, with me. And though I could repeat the Fields of Fire a dozen times," we could, "the Seven Kingdoms can ill afford another war such as Maegor the Cruel's in these times of rising darkness." I do not want to fight you. But if the Faith unifies like Lucan wishes it to, then I will not have a choice.
---[X] In the event the question is raised of how this could be possible, give Danelle a look, and reply, "In truth, between your own friends and Lucan's current entourage, you stand perilously close to being capable of doing so now. I doubt the Lannister's mages could defeat you both, and they are the only mortal force in Westeros with sufficient magical power to even mount a challenge. The reinvigoration of the Faith Militant would allow that power to go from one with the ability to topple those who rule in King's Landing, to one capable of forging a new state of rule.
-[X] If Danelle asks why we moved against Lucan's followers, reply simply that even those Angels he has called to his side have said that they do not believe he would respect a parlay. As distasteful as it might be, leverage was necessary.
-[X] There is subtext here, in that we were able to completely curbstomp Danelle's and Lucan's party on their own ground, using only some of the Companions and without us even present. They are utterly and totally outclassed on a personal level, but their largest danger is that of how true war with the Faith would cost far too many lives and far too much unity. We are willing to discuss terms of a settlement, but if we are to do that, it must be done in a position where we can trust a cease-fire to be upheld. And we have the word of an Angel of the Seven that we can't, not from Lucan.
[X] Ret-con the last update to give you guys the chance to speak up better
 
For the record, going on from here out will likely lead to a confrontation that will be... less then great for all involved.

The path to said confrontation should have been an entirely different one and with the way things have happened in between, it will likely feel like a blunt moral hammer applied repeatedly to the face.

So fair warning on that.
Just serves as a confirmation to my suspicions that going further will only cause more pain to QMs and us both.

@everyone, please think carefully about this. There is only so much salt even this thread can take.

[X] Ret-con the last update to give you guys the chance to speak up better

 
They just think that a strong Faith and a realm full of mid-level paladins and Clerics are an appropriate solution.

Clearly.

That cult of Tiamat corrupting a sept must have been a fluke. Those mid-level clerics will certainly be able to deal with the twisted realm of the fae as it tears the Reach a new one.

I must be horribly mistaken in thinking that a few paladins won't be enough to deal with a dragon that can erase even the concept of your existence with a breath weapon.
 
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[X] Ret-con the entire arc since the arrival in Oldtown, the conclave is cancelled due to moves by the high septon you guys need to figure out what do do with Viserys this month
 
Convinced, so I'm altering my vote:
[X] Ret-con the last update to give you guys the chance to speak up better
 
Their intent is lots of Godsworn mages and sanctified Knights (Paladins). Essentially similar.
I wonder if they are even capable of having Clerics outside of their Chosen? The millennia of unchecked worship hasn't been kind to the Seven, but if they're so twisted up in knots that they can't even have multiple Clerics, that would be brutal.

All the other gods would probably tease them mercilessly, too.
 
I must be horribly mistaken in thinking that a few paladins will be enough to deal with a dragon that can erase even the concept of your existence with a breath weapon.
I dunno if you've ever played D&D, but that's just a matter of CR.
Paladins are very strong against such enemies, because they have strong saves and can thus basically ignore Dragon's breath weapons while they cut the monster into tiny little pieces.

A sufficiently strong paladin (backed by crafters) absolutely could kill a Fey Lord or Ice Dragon. That's what the Chosen are for.
 
Guys, I get the salt. I had to rent out a cavern for mine. But I don't think retconning the entire arc will help. Equally, I don't think slamming ourselves against a moral hammer will either.

Let's just...roll this back a little and approach things anew, knowing how the storytelling has changed. We'll have to eat our share of humble pie, but that's what compromise is. And I do actually think that compromise is possible. Yes, even with our oath to the old gods. It won't be easy, or pleasant, but I think it's possible.
 
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Just serves as a confirmation to my suspicions that going further will only cause more pain to QMs and us both.

@everyone, please think carefully about this. There is only so much salt even this thread can take.

[X] Ret-con the last update to give you guys the chance to speak up better
Retconning the last update leaves the confrontation ahead of us, just under slightly different terms, though not that much.
 
I dunno if you've ever played D&D, but that's just a matter of CR.
Paladins are very strong against such enemies, because they have strong saves and can thus basically ignore Dragon's breath weapons while they cut the monster into tiny little pieces.

A sufficiently strong paladin (backed by crafters) absolutely could kill a Fey Lord or Ice Dragon. That's what the Chosen are for.

That's assuming Winter plays fair. Winter never plays fair.

The first time they see that dragon is after it erases their support and if you think it's coming alone you'd better think again, cause it's got a number of wright lord friends who just happen to be speced to fuck with paladins, because again Winter never plays fair.

Need I remind you of the zombie children trap the fuckers set for us back in the mountain to play with our morality?

Or how that dragon was an ambush after we rezzed our mother?

And to be perfectly blunt I don't believe that dragon was even close to the worst shit Winter has yet to throw at us.
 
He should have at least been able to finish speaking rather than let her run roughshod over him.
I'm not even arguing that we should have interrupted. I think that we should have ended the update once she'd had her first diatribe, and then voted on:
  • Do you respond to her description of you as a fear-addled idiot, misjudging people for no reason and considering people as tools?
  • OR do you try to find a way to switch back to talking about the Faith Militant?
Because right there, the transition between her accusation and Viserys' answer was just shitty.

And by the way, can we all agree that if we retcon the last update we won't magically learn IC that he doesn't want to recreate the Faith Militant? A flaw of our last vote was that we were operating on false information. Remember that a retcon means that IC you have to act on what you know and not what the thread knows...
Not a huge problem, but something to keep in mind.

For example, if we switch back to the last update we could respond to her portrayal of us as a fear-addled madman and go for the "polite dialogue later, I free her friends now with a word on why I started with a kidnapping" approach.
Then we could bring up the Faith militant (and the excessive power of the Church) during our conversation, once they're done hitting us in the face with a morality hammer.

And to be perfectly blunt I don't believe that dragon was even close to the worst shit Winter has yet to throw at us.
Planetar says hello!
The Faith isn't weak and toothless, and I don't know why you insist that it is. It's weaker than us, but it is strong!
 
We have no intention of giving the Faith any special exemptions under our Empire right? Am I the only one who thinks Lucan is never going to accept that? He and us are probably going to end up in conflict unless we give major concessions to the Faith. And, I don't want to do that.
 
Guys, I get the salt. I had to rent out a cavern for mine. But I don't think retconning the entire arc will help. Equally, I don't think slamming ourselves against a moral hammer will either.

Let's just...roll this back a little and approach things anew, knowing how the storytelling has changed. We'll have to eat our share of humble pie, but that's what compromise is. And I do actually think that compromise is possible. Yes, even with our oath to the old gods. It won't be easy, or pleasant, but I think it's possible.

My problem is that this last update was simply this entire arc made manifest, it's been bad from day one and now even Azel and DP admit it was all a blunt and unsubtle moral hammer to make us feel bad, I don't want this game to devolve into constant moral hammering about how awful we are/have been and given that the last time this came up (the dumb Syrax dream) @DragonParadox promised he wouldn't do it again I trust him about as far as I could physically reach into my screen and throw him not to continue doing this in the future.

*Edit: Ninja'ed by Azel again

Retconning the last update leaves the confrontation ahead of us, just under slightly different terms, though not that much.
 
The Faith isn't weak and toothless, and I don't know why you insist that it is. It's weaker than us, but it is strong!

I don't think it's weak and toothless. I think it's inept and unfocused and by the time it gets its shit together it'll be too late to do anything.

Everybody is already making their moves, has been making their moves, and half way into the race is not the time to be putting your tennis shoes on.
 
Retconning the last update leaves the confrontation ahead of us, just under slightly different terms, though not that much.
Then no, thank you

[X] Ret-con the entire arc since the arrival in Oldtown, the conclave is cancelled due to moves by the high septon you guys need to figure out what do do with Viserys this month
 
We have no intention of giving the Faith any special exemptions under our Empire right? Am I the only one who thinks Lucan is never going to accept that? He and us are probably going to end up in conflict unless we give major concessions to the Faith. And, I don't want to do that.

Given the way this has been going we absolutely will give them exceptions/special treatment cause doing otherwise would require doing "bad" things and we don't like doing bad things since our abrupt and out of nowhere 180 in the syrax dream vote.
 
My problem is that this last update was simply this entire arc made manifest, it's been bad from day one and now even Azel and DP admit it was all a blunt and unsubtle moral hammer to make us feel bad, I don't want this game to devolve into constant moral hammering about how awful we are/have been and given that the last time this came up (the dumb Syrax dream) @DragonParadox promised he wouldn't do it again I trust him about as far as I could physically reach into my screen and throw him not to continue doing this in the future.

I can assure you that the purpose of the arc was not to make you all feel bad, it had to do with where we wanted o take the story. Self-reflection on the part of the thread and thus Viserys was something we hoped to see, but the changes were far more about the story and how other characters would interact with Viserys.

This is not me making excuses by the way, there were a lot of mistakes, I just want to clarify the narrative point.
 
This seems...less than optimal in terms of choice making when two options lead to almost exactly the same result.
I read the options this way:
  1. Take your lumps and accept last update
  2. Rewrite last update to make Viserys less of an automaton, but accept the consequences of your poor planning at the conclave
  3. Fuck the entire Conclave, rewrite an entire month, weep internally
 
This seems...less than optimal in terms of choice making when two options lead to almost exactly the same result.
Unfortunately that seems to be where we are now.

I can assure you that the purpose of the arc was not to make you all feel bad, it had to do with where we wanted o take the story. Self-reflection on the part of the thread and thus Viserys was something we hoped to see, but the changes were far more about the story and how other characters would interact with Viserys.

This is not me making excuses by the way, there were a lot of mistakes, I just want to clarify the narrative point.

Then why did you promise not to do this (blunt moral decisions) again after the Syrax Dream vote if you had this planned?
 
Retconning the last update leaves the confrontation ahead of us, just under slightly different terms, though not that much.
This seems...less than optimal in terms of choice making when two options lead to almost exactly the same result.
I think the terms will be sufficiently different as to be acceptable to most of us. If Viserys handles the conversation like he should have, like he normally would have and has done many times before, there might be issues, but it won't be such an uncharacteristically one-sided exchange.

Bad results are one thing, we can deal with those, but not even having a chance to speak and just letting Danelle steer the conversation like we were a neophyte being taken to task by a superior...no. That shouldn't be "slightly different terms".
 
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