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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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MTB said:
I'm fully on board with the anti-dehumanization campaign, but that implies we have to invent psychological treatment and to come up with longterm leaves for scarred inquisitors to give them time to find their balance again (I guess, they'd need PTSD treatment?).
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Preceptor Archons. Preceptor Archons for days.

And also probably a bunch of mortals who'll end up learning from them, maybe with some minor civilian casting. Would be a good job for our Wis/Cha based casters who don't want to fight.
 
I have no issue with setting a therapy institute but as far as I know that was both: already being planned, and the summoning of Archons will begin soon enough.

Making a few hundred words in a rush that will settle a lot of future policy thanks to Syrax leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth
 
So the plan is to start mass rehabilitation of cultists?

Cultists come in two flavors: mooks who don't even own their souls anymore, and canny motherfuckers. This is not going to be as simple as therapy (which is hideously complicated on it's own, but let's handwave it with angels I guess), it'll require an immense amount of magical power and research to unfuck them and be sure we really did it, and as soon as we manage to do it for real they'll start looking for a way to fake it.

I found the idea of rehabilitating even only a certain kind of Devil to be ridiculous, but it turns out Erinyes are special and really only want to kill more demons, they don't care about the details. Now though, we're expanding into cultists, and I wonder what's next? Are all fiends going to be rehabilitate-able? Never mind that whole 'literally made from evil' bit?

And we're scared of the risks of well contained, divined-for experiments, and of the completely inevitable consequences of war and hardship as well? It's one thing for us to regret it, but we've already done the math here, and it may not be pretty but the other options are worse.

It's one thing for us to regret that people will die and another for us to try and change that which we know cannot be changed. After a certain point, every burden we move from some will go on to others, and this is self evident.
 
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Azurath said:
So what do other realms do when dealing with cultists?
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They kill them, duh.
:V

@Snowfire, I'm pretty sure that setting the "fire off a divination before trying to offer rehabilitation to a cultist" would make us have far less effort and resources wasted, if the divination will end up on "will X break ties with Y and successfully go through rehabilitation?".
Divination is bullshit, and sufficiently optimised divination is optimisation to everything else. And bullshit.
 
egoo said:
They kill them, duh.
:V

@Snowfire, I'm pretty sure that setting the "fire off a divination before trying to offer rehabilitation to a cultist" would make us have far less effort and resources wasted, if the divination will end up on "will X break ties with Y and successfully go through rehabilitation?".
Divination is bullshit, and sufficiently optimised divination is optimisation to everything else. And bullshit.
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That will fail in most instances, since the sorts of beings that can grant powers are beyond most mortal divination. Also a yes/no question requires commune which is a 5th level spell that costs XP.
 
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Also, those of you that agree with the therapy but are against the Lannisport spores:

You are perfectly able to make your own plan. Its only erasing a tiny bit compared to the rest of the plan that was already written
 
egoo said:
@Snowfire, I'm pretty sure that setting the "fire off a divination before trying to offer rehabilitation to a cultist" would make us have far less effort and resources wasted, if the divination will end up on "will X break ties with Y and successfully go through rehabilitation?".
Divination is bullshit, and sufficiently optimised divination is optimisation to everything else. And bullshit.
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Divination only goes a week into the future.
Edit: Faceless'd by DP
Adhoc vote count started by Snowfire on May 2, 2019 at 11:30 AM, finished with 305518 posts and 40 votes.
  • [X] Accept that which you had become and leave the sighs to others
    [X] Change something of what you had seen, the past is dead but the future is yet open?
    -[X] Limit the use of Weapons of Mass Destruction - Weapons such that you deployed against Lannisport require foes against which they are the only option. Limit use of WMDs to use against the White Walkers, other truly existential threats to Planetos itself, and true peer powers.
    -[X] Write in: Silver of Justice - There is a truth in what you have been shown, but also a message of how you have chosen to make some useful and others food for the engine of Empire. With the summoning of the Preceptor Archons, and the rituals you have created to free Fiends and more from that which binds them inevitably to the planes which supply their power, might it not also be possible to see some who are driven to consort with such powers recovered from their folly instead of simply given unto the snake or tree?
    --[X] In addition, sit down with the heads of the Inquisition and bring up treatment of prisoners, along the following lines:
    ---[X] This act of dehumanization shows a critical crack within the institution of the Inquisition. If they make a habit of dehumanizing their targets, then they no longer give their actions the self-reflection and judgement that they desperately need. The Inquisition wields a tremendous amount of power. They can easily decree the life or death of many. As such, it is crucial that they are at every moment aware of their actions, and asking themselves - Is this truly necessary? Is this truly the right choice?
    ---[X] When you dehumanize your opponents, or by default put your goals above any means you might employ, then you do not do that. She becomes "just a cultist", not "just a human who coveted with demons". There is a huge difference between the two, because one is a caricature, and the other is a living being with emotions and sapience - the same kind of being you are. To kill a cultist is easy. To kill a human, even when the circumstances might justify it, is not.
    ---[X] If the Inquisition cannot be bothered to do something as simple as ensure that their prisoners do not have to suffer unduly, then why should we trust them with the power to spy and intervene in the life of Imperial citizens?
    [X] Abstain
    [X] Change something of what you had seen, the past is dead but the future is yet open?
    -[X] Limit the power of the inquisition to spy on your own citizenry (Write in)
    -[X] Set up indipendant judges and have them ask for warrents to spy on your citizens
    -[X] Further limit what you can use as sacrifice (Write in)
    -[X] No mortal or those whose souls can be saved. Atleast try and rehabilitate them for a few months. Have them swear to one of the gods so thier soul are not damned
    -[X] Limit the use of Weapons of Mass Destruction (Write in)
    -[X] Against no mortals no WMDs
    -[X] Put precautions in place in the case of human experimentation/flesh-forging (Write in)
    -[X] have proper courses and studies done on thier effcts on people. Only use bodies voluntired for that purpose.
    -[X] Do not Create the Mammon Machine
    -[X] Try to limit the grain crises you had set up (Write in)
    -[X] try to find some magical use for large amount of grain. Like good for a potion or something, leak it to westros.
    -[x] Be more careful in your intrigues about causing avoidable deaths
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Welp, if the LG Angels think that it's better for everyone involved to just kill the cultists...

(It also sounds really dangerous and wasteful having under lock and key a large group of cultists)
 
065tdsa said:
Cultists come in two flavors: mooks who don't even own their souls anymore, and canny motherfuckers.
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As far as I understand especially the mooks do own their souls.

They are not important enough that a Contract Devil offers them their heart's desire for a contract, or that a dark goddess speaks in their dreams and asks them to be her mortal hand and eye.
They are just idiots with the right alignment who are worshipping the wrong asshole.

So regular run-of-the-mill therapy and redemption should have a chance of working on these mooks.

@DragonParadox Unless I'm wrong and the demonlord/god/whatever has a tight grip on the soul of each individual mook?
 
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065tdsa said:
So the plan is to start mass rehabilitation of cultists?

Cultists come in two flavors: mooks who don't even own their souls anymore, and canny motherfuckers. This is not going to be as simple as therapy (which is hideously complicated on it's own, but let's handwave it with angels I guess), it'll require an immense amount of magical power and research to unfuck them and be sure we really did it, and as soon as we manage to do it for real they'll start looking for a way to fake it.

I found the idea of rehabilitating even only a certain kind of Devil to be ridiculous, but it turns out Erinyes are special and really only want to kill more demons, they don't care about the details. Now though, we're expanding into cultists, and I wonder what's next?
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We are giving them a chance to repent that's it, and most cultists still own their soul, they have sworn it to whatever Fiends they serve, but they can change their minds until they die, it's only the higher level cultists, who merit a binding contract for their soul.
 
Azurath said:
Welp, if the LG Angels think that it's better for everyone involved to just kill the cultists...

(It also sounds really dangerous and wasteful having under lock and key a large group of cultists)
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The Archons have been doing redemption, if I'm not mistaken. So this argument doesn't really hold water.
 
The crazy demon said:
Also, those of you that agree with the therapy but are against the Lannisport spores:

You are perfectly able to make your own plan. Its only erasing a tiny bit compared to the rest of the plan that was already written
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I plan to support Snowfire in formulating a minor action for therapy / inquisition humanization, and vote for this topic here as I did. But thanks for the proposal.
egoo said:
Must... not hurt... at inefficiency... :mad:
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Killing does not preclude feeding the trees/Yss.
 
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Azurath said:
How does the process work exactly? And do they catch every cultist that doesn't change? Because such a thing might become a crucible to forging a monster capable of fooling Angels.
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Idk, it's below the level of abstraction. But the fact that Mantarys is not a smoking crater implies that it's working pretty well.
 
tarrangar said:
We are giving them a chance to repent that's it, and most cultists still own their soul, they have sworn it to whatever Fiends they serve, but they can change their minds until they die, it's only the higher level cultists, who merit a binding contract for their soul.
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And if we do this, they'll change that. Because why leave us the option to redeem people? Contracts aren't that expensive.

The brunt of the cult in Mantarys was out in the open and got stomped, so the biggest known concentration of celestials in the prime material being able to handle the dregs despite a quite lenient policy thanks to the fact they have the angel power and all the living cultists are peripheral remains is not impressive.
 
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065tdsa said:
And if we do this, they'll change that. Because why leave us the option to redeem people? Contracts aren't that expensive.
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A mortal must choose to sell their soul instead of swear it to a power. And it's a very different type of question, with a lot more power in play in the transaction. Hell does have limited resources, and we've also shown the ability to snap conceptual links to it.
 
I'm running a game on the side so I can't spend too long here. Just going to drop this as a personification of my opinion on the matter.



You want to save the rat? Be ready to do what it takes.

Do we have to get dirty to do our job, yes, yes we do, that's just the nature of the beast.

We can make a utopia , a shining place where no one hurts and no one has to die, but that will take blood, sweat, tears, and lives.

Accept what we've done, what we're going to continue to do, and do what must be done.

We've got a lot more than a rat on the line.

[X] Accept that which you had become and leave the sighs to others
 
Snowfire said:
A mortal must choose to sell their soul instead of swear it to a power. And it's a very different type of question, with a lot more power in play in the transaction. Hell does have limited resources, and we've also shown the ability to snap conceptual links to it.
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And they'll choose it. Most cultists (or people in general) don't actually know the difference after all. Not like our education programs are online yet to teach them.
 
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