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That is false. Government action is not done until both E and EB happened.

It seems the implication here is that Established does not mean it is completely done, but the most important parts are, which notably are the ones that are most important to be done first.

If we don't take established then we need to spend the first couple turns dealing with both the congress and the accords or else we fall apart, which with Greatest Sin floating around makes that a dicey prospect.
 
Considering how much Burns the World was poo-poohed (rightly) for being reckless, I just find it incredibly ironic how the most popular plan is just as reckless if not more so.
Adhoc vote count started by Libandlearn on Mar 27, 2019 at 8:26 PM, finished with 370 posts and 94 votes.
 
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It seems the implication here is that Established does not mean it is completely done, but the most important parts are, which notably are the ones that are most important to be done first.

If we don't take established then we need to spend the first couple turns dealing with both the congress and the accords or else we fall apart, which with Greatest Sin floating around makes that a dicey prospect.

And if we don't take EB we will be doing the same because we haven't got a federal government. Like, try telling a city level bureaucracy to do state level bureaucracy; and think how much expansion and reorganization you need to do while stuff can't happen because there is no people to command with.
 
It seems the implication here is that Established does not mean it is completely done, but the most important parts are, which notably are the ones that are most important to be done first.

If we don't take established then we need to spend the first couple turns dealing with both the congress and the accords or else we fall apart, which with Greatest Sin floating around makes that a dicey prospect.
I mean, taking established, as the lower cost trait in comparison. Means that the easier part of setting up a goverment is done, not that the goverment can do anything. A good example is us having elected a Congress, but it has no ability to do anything yet. EB is having full ability to do stuff and all the departments ready, but not having outside territory representatives voted in yet.
 
Fuck it.

[x] Plan All the Economy
[x] Plan Entrepot
[X] Plan Security, Established, and Economy

If the assassin kills Burns, or enough VIPs of the Accords to cause its collapse I guess at least it'll be interesting seeing how Chicago crumbles.
 
[x] Plan Set to Soar
[X] Plan Security, Established, and Economy
[X] Plan Entrepot
 
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39 All econ, 37* All round, 35 Sec/Est/Econ. Very nice turnout.

*ppl need to copy / paste better. :V It can't be that hard.
Adhoc vote count started by QTesseract on Mar 27, 2019 at 6:31 PM, finished with 300 posts and 90 votes.
 
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If the assassin kills Burns, or enough VIPs of the Accords to cause its collapse I guess at least it'll be interesting seeing how Chicago crumbles.
Please do not vote for plans on the grounds that you think it will be interesting to watch us all fail after they go badly? It's cruel to those of us who put time and energy and hope into trying to enjoy this game.

...

We're going to have to take risks to succeed given our starting advantages and disadvantages.
Perhaps so, but "we need to take a risk to succeed" does not automatically mean that taking more risks, especially more risks that hit us simultaneously, will confer greater success.

I suspect there is a point of diminishing returns, beyond which taking on more risk and more problems simply increases the odds of disaster more than it pays off in terms of heightened capabilities.

I think a lot of people are assuming straight for worst case scenario, never allow the potential for crit fails to determine your course of action.
Some of the problems we're getting loaded with have the potential to destroy us without a crit fail.

Never make a plan that relies on succeeding on three or four or five simultaneous die rolls.

they said it was bad if we didn't take actions quickly to deal with it.
We don't have infinity capacity for action. Actions will cost time and resources, and our options will be limited by Disunited Currency and the lack of Established.

I don't think population boom should ever be taken without vaccinations. That's just asking for mass deaths from illnesses.
A plague is survivable.

I'm serious. Many nations, throughout history, have been hit with plagues. They're very bad, but the country can continue to exist. Anyone alive in post-Collapse America circa 2073 is a survivor of plagues.

What is NOT survivable is having various diseases break out among the non-vaccinated population (ain't no vaccine for cholera or tuberculosis and probably none for some of the exotic plagues that came during the Collapse, anyway) while we can't fund a large-scale hospital infrastructure due to our fractured economy and lack of stable unified currency (plus lack of jurisdiction because we're still hammering out the Accords), while an enemy army is marching on our borders, while an assassin is picking off the people who are trying to coordinate all this shit.

Watch Extra History's videos on the Bronze Age Collapse.. Civilizations fall, not when a single problem hits them, but when several problems hit all at once.

A famine that hits at the same time as a barbarian invasion is several times more likely to topple or cripple a civilization than either problem would be separately. When we're struggling to deal with the famine because our merchants have no widely accepted currency (and our railroad network isn't established until Turn 3 or later), and then the barbarians invade, in the middle of a factional squabble and succession crisis caused by the assassin planting a big bomb in the middle of our constitutional convention, then that is the kind of thing that causes civilizations to die.

At which point it really doesn't matter how many bonuses we have, because our ability to do anything with them is so badly reduced that we can't use them effectively.

I mean, going with the all round plan means we have constant action taxes for the rest of the game, along with the much more painful part of goverment setup that still needs to be done. So, post accords it's going to be a constant drain on action economy.

Edit: Plus all-round takes a population boom with no vaccines or beurocracy to manage it, leading to food riots and dissease as the goverment has no way on acting to accomplish anything.
All-Round gives us ONE problem that we don't have the tools to manage, eventually: the threat of epidemics among our overcrowded population. But remember that the explicitly stated disadvantage of Population Boom is that people will start dying right at game start from famine, not some time later probably from diseases brought on by overcrowding.

But the immediate threat of Population Boom isn't an eventual disease threat caused by lack of medical care (which as I mentioned, Widespread Vaccination doesn't entirely counter). It's immediate death caused by lack of food;.

All Economy gives us up to THREE problems that we don't have the tools to manage. We'll have a currency crisis without a government to issue currency. We'll have an assassin and powerful traitor on the rampage without skilled security services to subdue them And we may very well have a famine we can't handle because of the monetary crisis and lack of control over the surrounding farmland. We may even have other problems, like "constitutional convention melts down because terrorist bombings cause most of the faction

Established is a waste of points when it's easy to fix with a few turns.
You seem to imagine us as an "unmoved mover" that will be free to do whatever we like during those "few turns." That is not true. Our leadership will be dodging an assassin, eyeing each other to figure out who the traitor is, and scrambling to deal with multiple simultaneous economic crises (food security crisis and fiscal crisis), and probably fighting a Victorian army.

There is absolutely NO guarantee that we will succeed in establishing a government while dealing with that many different kinds of pressure.

You're really pushing those scare tactics hard.
That is because you are scaring the hell out of me with the minimization of the numerous overlapping threats the plan establishes.
 
I would say people need to argue the plans as a whole instead of focusing on trait to trait comparison. The traits do not exist in a vacuum and this polity being a vote a democracy with higher federation expectations, then that will affect the decision process. At least that is what i believe should happen.
 
I would say people need to argue the plans as a whole instead of focusing on trait to trait comparison. The traits do not exist in a vacuum and this polity being a vote a democracy with higher federation expectations, then that will affect the decision process. At least that is what i believe should happen.
I mean yes, that's kind of the problem. A big complex of interlocking disadvantages will tend to cause a vicious cycle that cannot be singled out just by talking about a single trait. Any one problem is easy to solve, but three or four major problems at once are more than three or four times as hard to solve as a single problem alone.

There's no Guarantee that we'll succeed with any of the other plans either, suggesting otherwise is a nonstarter. High Risk, High Reward.
Kneecapping ourselves to increase the risk, on the assumption that we will survive and gain higher rewards, is not necessarily a good choice.
 
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Live a little! Life is boring without risks, and we screwed ourselves on safe options when we took victorian attention from the onset.
 
I mean, also comparing the starting government trait of all-around and AtE, EB is explicitly a higher cost trait, and it hints that by not taking it we would have no apparatus of government to actually do anything with. While Established is just land and legitimacy. Like, one sort of has the tools to deal with problems, the other has absolutely nothing to do so.
 
Live a little! Life is boring without risks, and we screwed ourselves on safe options when we took victorian attention from the onset.
You argued angrily against the Burns option at the time, so this comes across as kind of disingenuous.

Please do not intentionally set us up to have our sand-castle kicked over because gambling is fun or because The Fall Of The Sand Castle makes a fun story.

It would be a bad approach to take to those of us who are trying to have fun and succeed in the quest by developing a story and becoming attached to it. Especially if that was motivated in part by anger and bad feelings over an earlier choice in character/nation generation that didn't go the way it "should."
 
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You argued very angrily against the Burns option at the time, so this comes across as kind of disingenuous.

Please do not intentionally set us up to have our sand-castle kicked over because gambling is fun or because The Fall Of The Sand Castle makes a fun story.

It would be a bad approach to take to those of us who are trying to have fun and succeed in the quest by developing a story and becoming attached to it. Especially if that was motivated in part by anger and bad feelings over an earlier choice in character/nation generation that didn't go the way it "should."
I mean, the main concern is that without an "aggressive" plan weather economically or militarily, we will just get crushed in the end game, with us not having the action economy to keep up with the vics/warlords. We were directly told that victory was unlikely without some risk.

Like, a cautious plan now offers us safety for the first few turns but makes it harder to succeed in the future.
 
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I mean, also comparing the starting government trait of all-around and AtE, EB is explicitly a higher cost trait, and it hints that by not taking it we would have no apparatus of government to actually do anything with. While Established is just land and legitimacy. Like, one sort of has the tools to deal with problems, the other has absolutely nothing to do so.
@PoptartProdigy has, so far as I know, indicated that without Established Bureaucracy, we will have a weak government, not no government.

I mean, the main concern is that without an "aggressive" plan weather economically or militarily, we will just get crushed in the end game, with us not having the action economy to keep up with the vics/warlords. We were directly told that victory was unlikely without some risk.
But which risks?

Again, you can't use "we have to take some risk" as justification for taking a highly specific and numerous set of risks that interlock and make each other worse.
 
I'm strongly in favor of Plann SEE at this point, since it's a well-rounded start and gives us tools to deal with some of the risks we're facing, as well as giving us an Establish government.

I don't view it as nearly as risk-heavy as AtE and would probably prefer it over All Round, as well. Entrepot is like my favorite, but it's not in the running currently.
Adhoc vote count started by Rat King on Mar 27, 2019 at 6:56 PM, finished with 313 posts and 91 votes.

Adhoc vote count started by Rat King on Mar 27, 2019 at 7:00 PM, finished with 318 posts and 91 votes.

Adhoc vote count started by Rat King on Mar 27, 2019 at 7:02 PM, finished with 318 posts and 91 votes.

Adhoc vote count started by Rat King on Mar 27, 2019 at 7:05 PM, finished with 321 posts and 91 votes.
 
@PoptartProdigy has, so far as I know, indicated that without Established Bureaucracy, we will have a weak government, not no government.
Then why, as the main descriptor of the trait in the customization options, where main benefits are bolded, is there: Begin play with a proper census, established taxation structures, and all of the manifold other things that go on in the boring background of governance.

But which risks?

Again, you can't use "we have to take some risk" as justification for taking a highly specific and numerous set of risks that interlock and make each other worse.
Because those risks are all short term and can be solved given time. Plus having an established state apparatus makes all of them that much more survivable.
 
Without some risk does not mean taking a combination of risks that can - and likely will - cripple us without having certain things handled like Established (which again, was cheaper for us because we were Chicago, as per Poptart). If you are not, in fact the legitimate government of a region, then you do not have the right to act for or in that region, and should not expect to be able to do so without opposition, no matter how efficient your Bureaucracy is.
 
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