Voting is open
Can someone please copy the full version of Securing a better Tommorow V3?
[]Securing a better Tommorow V3
-[]Libraries
-[]Independant Merchants
-[]Widespread Vaccinations
-[]Brown Water Navy
-[]Foreign-Sourced Equipment
-[]Population Boom
-[]Victorian Sympathizers
-[]Disastrous Start
-[]Compromised
[x] Plan All the Economy
[X] Plan All-Round Start
[x] Plan Entrepot
[X] Plan All-Round Start
[X] Plan Just the Government
[X] Plan Entrepot
[X] Plan All-Round Start
-[X] Independent Merchants
-[X] Established
-[X] Good Security
-[X] Libraries
-[X] Population Boom
-[X] Disastrous Start

[Nope] Plan All the Economy

[X] Plan Entrepot
-[X] Brown Water Navy
-[X] Independent Merchants
-[X] Ear To The Ground
-[X] Libraries
-[X] Population Boom
-[X] Import/Export Professionals

[X] Plan Just the Government
-[X] Disastrous Start
-[X] Established
-[X] Efficient Bureaucracy


There is now zero chance the winning plan isn't one you included in your post. Especially since you "helpfully" included the meme vote, giving it all the legitimacy it'll ever need. I'm giving that one 50/50 odds to win against all the others combined. Baka.

Edit: Removed a vote.
[X] Plan All the Economy
-[X] Brown Water Navy
-[X] Disastrous Start
-[X] The Greatest Sin
-[X] Independent Merchants
-[X] Rail Companies
-[X] Vaccines
-[X] Efficient Bureaucracy
-[X] Population Boom
-[X] Disunited Currency
-[X] Import/Export
-[X] Libraries

[X] Plan Entrepot
-[X] Brown Water Navy
-[X] Independent Merchants
-[X] Ear To The Ground
-[X] Libraries
-[X] Population Boom
-[X] Import/Export Professionals

Brown Water Navy and libraries are important. Of these two, I prefer Entrepot for it's intelligence buff.

[X] Plan Go Big or Go Home
-[X] The Greatest Sin
-[X] Disunited Currency
-[X] Population Boom
-[X] Nuke
-[X] Established
-[X] Independent Merchants
-[X] Widespread Vaccinations

This I'm including because the nuke is big and sort of compensates for the downsides.
[X] Plan Entrepot
-[X] Brown-Water Navy
-[X] Independent Merchants
-[X] Ear To The Ground
-[X] Libraries
-[X] Population Boom
-[X] Import Export Professionals

[x] Plan Go Big or Go Home
-[X] The Greatest Sin
-[X] Disunited Currency
-[X] Population Boom
-[x] Nuke
-[X] Established
-[X] Independent Merchants
-[X] Widespread Vaccinations
[x] Plan All the Economy
[X] Plan All-Round Start
[x] Plan Entrepot
[X] Plan All-Round Start
[X] Plan All the Economy
[X] Plan Entrepot
You're all voting for entrepot, but not also voting Securing a brighter tommorow? Any chance I could change your mind on that? It's got worse intel, but better economy and military and has vaccinations; all else, including big importance items like merchants, libraries, and navies, remains the same.
 
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You're all voting for entrepot, but not also voting Securing a brighter tommorow? Any chance I could change your mind on that? It's got worse intel, but better economy and military and has vaccinations; all else, including big importance items like merchants, libraries, and navies, remains the same.

I think Victorian Sympathizers, Disastrous Start, and Compromised are disadvantages that combine together really poorly. It's 4 points of intel disadvantages with no intel advantages. It's asking us to have a very leaky intel situation, and that could be a massive problem.
 
I'd like to make another push for @Usili 2.0's plan, Security, Established, and Economy. It's in the title!

Plan Security, Established, and Economy
- Brown-Water Navy (-2 CP)
- Established (-2 CP)
- Good Security (-1CP)
- Independent Merchants (-2CP)
- Widespread Vaccinations (-3CP)
- The Greatest Sin (3CP)
- Victorian Sympathizers (2CP)
- Population Boom (2 CP)
- Hostile Neighborhood (1CP)
- Libraries (-2 CP)

More seriously, I think it is superior to both All The Economy and All-Round Start because of the way Usili's plan takes drawbacks that Usili's plan also gives the tools to resolve.

Consider this: Under Security, Established, and Economy (hereafter shortened to SEE, because that's easier to type), our main problems are Victorian Attention, The Greatest Sin, Victorian Sympathizers, Population Boom, and Hostile Neighborhood.

The tools that Usili's plan gives us to solve those are: Burns, Good Security, Established, Libraries, Independent Merchants, Widespread Vaccinations, and Brown Water Navy.

In exchange for taking costs which will likely be launched at our nascent government, Usili's plan gives us Established and Good Security to help resolve Victorian Attention, The Greatest Sin, and Victorian Sympathizers. To resolve Population Boom, we have Independent Merchants, Widespread Vaccinations, and Established. No provision, admittedly, is made specifically for Hostile Neighborhood; the hope is that by choosing not to intervene and building up a proper economy we can avoid creating a coalition specifically against us.

Compare this to All The Economy:

Plan All the Economy
- Brown Water Navy
- Disastrous Start
- The Greatest Sin
- Independent Merchants
- Rail Companies
- Vaccines
- Efficient Bureaucracy
- Population Boom
- Disunited Currency
- Import/Export
- Libraries

The main problems that All The Economy would give us at game start are Victorian Attention, Disastrous Start, The Greatest Sin, Population Boom, Disunited Currency, and Import/Export Professionals.

The tools that All The Economy would give us to solve the problems are Burns, Brown Water Navy, Independent Merchants, Rail Companies, Widespread Vaccines, Efficient Bureaucracy, and Libraries.

Problem is, some of the extremely powerful problems have no answer in All The Economy; for Victorian Attention, and The Greatest Sin the only recourse is to pray that Efficient Bureaucracy somehow lets us democratically select new leaders before a democratic process has even been established; the hope is that somehow Efficient Bureaucracy will quickly and efficaciously defeat the absolute economic mire that Disunited Currency represents; on top of all those actions that need resolving, as Import/Export Professionals grows in strength over time and directly saps our Independent Merchants and Rail Companies, we will also have time to finish creating the democratic state which gives us the legitimate democratic authority to do all these things in the first place!

In short, All The Economy incurs tons of short term problems without giving us the means to resolve them in the perk selection list, only to do so over a long period of time.

All-Round Start is slightly better on this front, if not necessarily good:

Plan All-Round Start
- Independent Merchants
- Established
- Good Security
- Libraries
- Population Boom
- Disastrous Start

The problems that All-Round Start presents are weaker: just Victorian Attention, Population Boom, and Disastrous Start.

The tools that All-Round Start gives to solve these issues are: Burns, Independent Merchants, Established, Good Security, and Libraries.

The main issue is that Population Boom incurs the massively increased risk of plague without also taking Vaccinations to help counter; aside from that, Established, Independent Merchants, and Good Security go a long way to resolve those issues.

Ultimately, I still recommend Plan Security, Established, and Economy over All-Round Start, because Plan Security, Established, and Economy simply has a better perk selection, even with the greater problems it brings.
 
I think Victorian Sympathizers, Disastrous Start, and Compromised are disadvantages that combine together really poorly. It's 4 points of intel disadvantages with no intel advantages. It's asking us to have a very leaky intel situation, and that could be a massive problem.
Honestly, I think disastrous start is kind of a nonissue as an intel disadvantage; it makes some intel plans completely hopeless, but unless you're trying to build up spy networks its mostly possible to work around. I don't disagree that compromised and victorian sympathizers aren't great, btu I do think it's a worthwhile change for having vacinations. In addition to being incredibly difficult to get going on its own, these will also help counteract the, frankly, fairly massive risk of disease outbreak that population outbreak brings. Compromised, for instance, has to deal with the fact that the victorians only have really shitty radio; if they want to get messages back home, they have to deal with actual travel time; it's not going to be tactically helpful, and unlikely to be strategically helpful, since our units will be moving faster than the messengers (naval control + logistics + foreign equipment) can reach victoria's military units to inform them of our troop movements. They can't do industrial espionage, since they're retroculturalists, this leak isn't an assasin, etc; lots of the usual options for spies just aren't a thing.
It is possible that they can recruit sympathizers, which would be pretty bad, but it woukld potentially let us hit 2 birds with 1 stone in removing them from government; it's only by scrupulously avoiding wrongdoing that they manage to stay in govt, after all.
 
I mean, if we are looking for security an established government, I remind you that this plan also has almost all the intel, and even some tech.

[ ] Grand Theft BOOM
-[ ] Ear to the Ground
-[ ] Good Security
-[ ] Aerial Reconnaissance
-[ ] Brown Water Navy
-[ ] Established
-[ ] Efficient Bureaucracy
-[ ] Well-Preserved
-[ ] The Greatest Sin
-[ ] Victorian Sympathizers
-[ ] Import/Export Professionals
-[ ] Hostile Neighborhood
 
Tallying.
Adhoc vote count started by Rivenscryr on Mar 26, 2019 at 9:46 PM, finished with 225 posts and 77 votes.
 
I think Victorian Sympathizers, Disastrous Start, and Compromised are disadvantages that combine together really poorly. It's 4 points of intel disadvantages with no intel advantages. It's asking us to have a very leaky intel situation, and that could be a massive problem.
Yeah. Victorian Sympathizers are almost certainly not going to remain fully loyal in the face of the impending invasion force, and Compromised explicitly means other people are successfully spying on us. That's a very awkward combination, especially when so much of our strength is contingent on this one UBERLEET HEROFORCE of troops who could be significantly damaged by a relatively small amount of sabotage.

You're all voting for entrepot, but not also voting Securing a brighter tommorow? Any chance I could change your mind on that? It's got worse intel, but better economy and military and has vaccinations; all else, including big importance items like merchants, libraries, and navies, remains the same.
Speaking as the guy who wrote Entrepot, it was designed around an entirely different philosophy than Securing a Brighter Tomorrow.

Your plan is built around balancing relatively numerous disadvantages against numerous advantages, expecting our strengths to override our weaknesses. Entrepot is one of the 'minimalist' plans, where we accept fewer advantages, in exchange for a shorter list of disadvantages. Your plan stacks enough extra bonuses and maluses that even though the Entrepot customization choices are mostly a subset of yours, Entrepot is still a radically different plan.

Whether it's better depends on how you feel about the risk/reward balance associated with taking lots of malus points.

Honestly, I think disastrous start is kind of a nonissue as an intel disadvantage; it makes some intel plans completely hopeless, but unless you're trying to build up spy networks its mostly possible to work around.
Poptart wouldn't call it a malus if it didn't have the potential to cause us problems. In our case the most obvious drawback is that we won't have enough information on the surrounding area when the Victorians come for us. We may not know if they've recruited local allies, or secured a base in nearby territory, until after the fact, because we have limited capacity to perform reconnaissance and no easy way to get information from spies and agents.

Not seeing an enemy invasion force coming at some point in the first four terms is a sizeable disadvantage we may be facing, and that's only the beginning.

I don't disagree that compromised and victorian sympathizers aren't great, btu I do think it's a worthwhile change for having vacinations. In addition to being incredibly difficult to get going on its own, these will also help counteract the, frankly, fairly massive risk of disease outbreak that population outbreak brings.
I'm going to be perfectly up-front with you, while I know that epidemics CAN hurt us badly with Population Boom, I think the epidemic risk alone is probably something that we can survive as a nation-state IF we are taking prompt humanitarian measures to relieve the overcrowding and keep people fed.

Under Entrepot our immediate crisis-level needs are:
1) Organizing the new regional government (not Established),
2) Expanding the food supply (Population Boom), and
3) Dealing with Chicago's crime problem brought on by smuggling (Import/Export Professionals)

We are aided in this by:
1) Having good intelligence on what the people we're trying to integrate (Ear to the Ground), and a pre-existing trade network that connects them to us,
2) Having that thriving trade network (Independent Merchants), giving us the income to fund our efforts and physically import food, and
3) Having a strong waterborne military that can run down smugglers (Brown-Water Navy), and good intelligence on the surrounding area that helps us figure out where the smugglers are operating from outside our borders (Ear to the Ground, again)

...

Our medium-term problems are:
1) Repelling the Victorian invasion (Burns), and
2) Dealing with the overcrowding and disease threats associated with Population Boom

Our plan for this is going to involve
1) Using good intelligence to get enough advanced notice to specifically prepare against the manner of Victorian attack (leverage Ear to the Ground), and of course our firepower (Burns).
2) This is admittedly a weakness of the plan, but not one we can really neutralize easily without an expensive bonus, that in turn requires us to take an expensive malus, which gives us another problem that we can't solve without another bonus, and so on in a vicious cycle.

The point of 'terse' plans like Entrepot is to avoid the vicious cycle, accept that we'll have one or more serious problems that we'll just have to somehow cope with without any special unique custom bonuses, but in turn that we'll have a relatively limited total number of problems.

Compromised, for instance, has to deal with the fact that the victorians only have really shitty radio; if they want to get messages back home, they have to deal with actual travel time; it's not going to be tactically helpful, and unlikely to be strategically helpful, since our units will be moving faster than the messengers (naval control + logistics + foreign equipment) can reach victoria's military units to inform them of our troop movements. They can't do industrial espionage, since they're retroculturalists, this leak isn't an assasin, etc; lots of the usual options for spies just aren't a thing.
The Victorians like to do deep raiding, we don't have the industry or manpower to hold trench lines thick enough to stop them, and if they have detailed intelligence (even months-old intelligence) on the precise whereabouts of our key facilities and industrial centers it's gonna hurt.

It is possible that they can recruit sympathizers, which would be pretty bad, but it woukld potentially let us hit 2 birds with 1 stone in removing them from government; it's only by scrupulously avoiding wrongdoing that they manage to stay in govt, after all.
I mean, by saying this you're kind of assuming we win despite being attacked from outside by a strong enemy army that we probably didn't know about until it came close to our borders, and betrayed from within by a faction of Quislings that have already stolen any of our secrets that they want to steal. That could be a pretty tough challenge even for Hellfire Burns. The kind of thing that keeps causing him to wind up on the run from the ruins of a collapsing polity.
 
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[X] Plan All the Economy
[X] Plan Entrepot
[X]Securing a better Tommorow V3
[X] Plan Security, Established, and Economy

I'm actually really annoyed now with how the last vote turned out, because now everything's devolved into arguments over military necessity on a short clock, with a very good chance of descending into full on army-with-a-state territory. (Exactly like I feared!)

No one can move too much or give to much ground on the economic grounds because the goddamn The State Exists For The Army (and chaos will reign) plan will win, and even economic plans are balanced around the incoming military threat. It's completely warped our thinking this early on, where half of our thinking is devoted to real military necessity verses economic development, democratic survival, and stability. I don't like it.
 
Yeah. Victorian Sympathizers are almost certainly not going to remain fully loyal in the face of the impending invasion force, and Compromised explicitly means other people are successfully spying on us. That's a very awkward combination, especially when so much of our strength is contingent on this one UBERLEET HEROFORCE of troops who could be significantly damaged by a relatively small amount of sabotage.

Speaking as the guy who wrote Entrepot, it was designed around an entirely different philosophy than Securing a Brighter Tomorrow.

Your plan is built around balancing relatively numerous disadvantages against numerous advantages, expecting our strengths to override our weaknesses. Entrepot is one of the 'minimalist' plans, where we accept fewer advantages, in exchange for a shorter list of disadvantages. Your plan stacks enough extra bonuses and maluses that even though the Entrepot customization choices are mostly a subset of yours, Entrepot is still a radically different plan.

Whether it's better depends on how you feel about the risk/reward balance associated with taking lots of malus points.

Poptart wouldn't call it a malus if it didn't have the potential to cause us problems. In our case the most obvious drawback is that we won't have enough information on the surrounding area when the Victorians come for us. We may not know if they've recruited local allies, or secured a base in nearby territory, until after the fact, because we have limited capacity to perform reconnaissance and no easy way to get information from spies and agents.

Not seeing an enemy invasion force coming at some point in the first four terms is a sizeable disadvantage we may be facing, and that's only the beginning.

I'm going to be perfectly up-front with you, while I know that epidemics CAN hurt us badly with Population Boom, I think the epidemic risk alone is probably something that we can survive as a nation-state IF we are taking prompt humanitarian measures to relieve the overcrowding and keep people fed.

Under Entrepot our immediate crisis-level needs are:
1) Organizing the new regional government (not Established),
2) Expanding the food supply (Population Boom), and
3) Dealing with Chicago's crime problem brought on by smuggling (Import/Export Professionals)

We are aided in this by:
1) Having good intelligence on what the people we're trying to integrate (Ear to the Ground), and a pre-existing trade network that connects them to us,
2) Having that thriving trade network (Independent Merchants), giving us the income to fund our efforts and physically import food, and
3) Having a strong waterborne military that can run down smugglers (Brown-Water Navy), and good intelligence on the surrounding area that helps us figure out where the smugglers are operating from outside our borders (Ear to the Ground, again)

...

Our medium-term problems are:
1) Repelling the Victorian invasion (Burns), and
2) Dealing with the overcrowding and disease threats associated with Population Boom

Our plan for this is going to involve
1) Using good intelligence to get enough advanced notice to specifically prepare against the manner of Victorian attack (leverage Ear to the Ground), and of course our firepower (Burns).
2) This is admittedly a weakness of the plan, but not one we can really neutralize easily without an expensive bonus, that in turn requires us to take an expensive malus, which gives us another problem that we can't solve without another bonus, and so on in a vicious cycle.

The point of 'terse' plans like Entrepot is to avoid the vicious cycle, accept that we'll have one or more serious problems that we'll just have to somehow cope with without any special unique custom bonuses, but in turn that we'll have a relatively limited total number of problems.

The Victorians like to do deep raiding, we don't have the industry or manpower to hold trench lines thick enough to stop them, and if they have detailed intelligence (even months-old intelligence) on the precise whereabouts of our key facilities and industrial centers it's gonna hurt.

I mean, by saying this you're kind of assuming we win despite being attacked from outside by a strong enemy army that we probably didn't know about until it came close to our borders, and betrayed from within by a faction of Quislings that have already stolen any of our secrets that they want to steal. That could be a pretty tough challenge even for Hellfire Burns. The kind of thing that keeps causing him to wind up on the run from the ruins of a collapsing polity.
I don't think this is baseless, but it is wrong. Victorian sympathizers explicitly aren't sabateurs; it even comes out and says that "These are genuinely patriotic and loyal citizens, utterly convinced of the Revivalist cause." They might be softer targets for defection, I guess, I doubt it will effect anything. If anything, improt export professionals is a bigger risk factor because it's an extant way to get things into chicago past all our defenses. Mostly I think they'll end up being a political headache that's under intel because there isn't a political disadvantage category. See the sizable US fascist party in WWII or the similar leaning parties in WWII britain for how this plays out, and how little actual cooperation with nazi germany they did. What we're looking out for are the political changes they'll try and make (like with the US fascist party our pledge of allegiance, and their racist immigration policy lobbying) and the fact that I just plain don't like dealing with neonazis, not some kind of deep state defection.

During the first attack, all victoria has against us is us not having a spy network - which we already wouldn't, this just makes it harder to establish one later, see "ear to the ground" - and a 1 cp drawback of informants, who I will note are also not sabateurs. Sabotage is a more specializied skill than you seem to be assuming, much like assasinations are, and an informant doesn't actually make it any easier for victoria to slip in their agents. In contrast, this is made up for by a better starting economy to support our military and foreign weaponry to let our units make up for their lackign experience, plus the same navy you have.

Ear to the ground won't help you find smugglers beyond our borders. It carries you rumors, not plants in every major agency or the like, and especially not among people actually dedicated to keeping secrets and having opsec like smugglers.

I also find it kind of baffling that you assume your plan will win militarily when it's weaker than securing a better future is on that score?
 
Hear me good people of this democracy! For I bring news from the discord.
PoptartProdigyToday at 6:31 PM

@PoptartProdigy, is the assertion that "pre-Accord signing, with the perk of Efficient Bureaucracy, only the Chicago Administrative Region will have an efficient bureaucracy" correct?
Yes.
 
I don't think this is baseless, but it is wrong. Victorian sympathizers explicitly aren't sabateurs; it even comes out and says that "These are genuinely patriotic and loyal citizens, utterly convinced of the Revivalist cause." They might be softer targets for defection, I guess, I doubt it will effect anything.
They're a +2 CP malus, on par with "there is a lethal flu epidemic running through your city at game start" or "you have literally zero naval presence" or for that matter "a Victorian intervention force will be showing up in turns 1-4."

Exactly how do you expect them to put us at a disadvantage, if not by acting as a prospective fifth column for the Victorians?

It is, to put it mildly, unlikely that they will somehow not present us with any consequential trouble. I fully expect them to, out of hearty, sincere patriotism and love for Chicagoland, sell us out to the Victorian expeditionary force in the name of purging Chicago of all its "disorderly" elements (like Latinos and uppity women and college professors) and instituting a nice 'orderly' retroculture government. Remember, that's what they think we should do anyway, or they wouldn't be Victorian sympathizers in the first place.

...

I get very, very worried when I see someone saying that one of the maluses isn't important and won't cause serious problems. Especially in a case like this, because while having a prospective fifth column within our state might be survivable if the Victorians were likely to stay several hundred miles away for the next few years, in a situation like this it's not unlike having pitched our tent over a nest of vipers.

What we're looking out for are the political changes they'll try and make (like with the US fascist party our pledge of allegiance, and their racist immigration policy lobbying) and the fact that I just plain don't like dealing with neonazis, not some kind of deep state defection.
I also don't understand why you think this is a purely political disadvantage when it's clearly listed under 'intelligence.' Take a look at the bonuses and maluses under 'diplomatic;' several of them are purely political, and that's where Poptart normally groups political affairs. Indeed, Domestic Connections, Good Reputation, Restart the Machine, and Fringe Elements are all entirely or almost entirely about our internal politics.

If Poptart had intended to indicate that Victorian Sympathizers was a purely domestic political problem and that our sympathizers could be counted on to stand with us even in the face of a Victorian army here to denounce us and tear down all our postmodern-cultural-neomarxist works, they could easily have put the malus under "diplomacy" with all the other purely political issues.

During the first attack, all victoria has against us is us not having a spy network - which we already wouldn't, this just makes it harder to establish one later, see "ear to the ground" - and a 1 cp drawback of informants, who I will note are also not sabateurs. Sabotage is a more specializied skill than you seem to be assuming, much like assasinations are, and an informant doesn't actually make it any easier for victoria to slip in their agents. In contrast, this is made up for by a better starting economy to support our military and foreign weaponry to let our units make up for their lackign experience, plus the same navy you have.
Having a population of many thousands of sympathizers does make it a lot easier for the Victorians to slip in agents, though. Because of those thousands of sympathizers, there are likely to be dozens or hundreds willing to let 'friendly foreign agents' into their homes.

Consider the pattern here. As the Victorians sold out the whole United States to the 'like-minded and sympathetic' Russian intelligence agencies, so we can expect our own Victorian fifth columnists to sell out Chicago to the like-minded and sympathetic Victorian intelligence agencies. They did it before, on a larger scale, and the incentives haven't changed.

Ear to the ground won't help you find smugglers beyond our borders. It carries you rumors, not plants in every major agency or the like, and especially not among people actually dedicated to keeping secrets and having opsec like smugglers.
More foreign informants doesn't automatically locate smugglers for us, but it helps. It means we know people, who know people. It means we have clues, it means we know where NOT to look.

In real life, coordination between jurisdictions and having plenty of information flowing between them is key to stopping smuggling. Every little bit helps. Ear to the Ground is a thing I expect to give us numerous small advantages in small ways whenever we deal with things flowing in and out of our territory, as opposed to being a super-bonus that helps us massively in a single way (the way that, say, Old World Equipment does).

I also find it kind of baffling that you assume your plan will win militarily when it's weaker than securing a better future is on that score?
Because I think that we don't need to stack up a ton of military advantages to fend off the Victorian force; I think we need a solid basis to use the advantages we have, while avoiding any crippling disadvantages that will paralyze our defenses in the face of the enemy.

Remember that our choice of Burns as leader means that we have a formidable military by default; padding that out further may be desirable, but it's not necessarily "do this or we die." Bulking up the military even further at the price of leaving ourselves wide open to Victorian espionage and terrorism is almost certainly going to backfire; remember that the Victorians have faced better-equipped enemy armies before, and defeated them in large part through terrorism and asymmetric warfare.

Moreover, Entrepot does contain the single most critical thing I can think of to give us an actual tactical advantage over the Victorians- a gunboat fleet to contest river crossings and harass any attempt they make to use the Great Lakes to send an invasion force to us.

[] Plan All the Economy
[] Plan Entrepot
[]Securing a better Tommorow V3
[] Plan Security, Established, and Economy

I'm actually really annoyed now with how the last vote turned out, because now everything's devolved into arguments over military necessity on a short clock, with a very good chance of descending into full on army-with-a-state territory. (Exactly like I feared!)

No one can move too much or give to much ground on the economic grounds because the goddamn The State Exists For The Army (and chaos will reign) plan will win, and even economic plans are balanced around the incoming military threat. It's completely warped our thinking this early on, where half of our thinking is devoted to real military necessity verses economic development, democratic survival, and stability. I don't like it.
I am with you and am trying to bend things in a direction consistent with how you feel.

Namely, with trusting in the direct military advantages conferred by Burns to do most of the heavy lifting in fending of the Victorians (I mean hey, he brings to the table -5 CP of purely military bonuses against that +2 CP malus), and making sure he's got a solid base of operations to defend against their attack.

And about the only malus I'm opposing specifically because of the upcoming Victorian invasion is "the one where you have fash in your city," which you and I would probably both oppose anyway on general principles.
 
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Moreover, Entrepot does contain the single most critical thing I can think of to give us an actual tactical advantage over the Victorians- a gunboat fleet to contest river crossings and harass any attempt they make to use the Great Lakes to send an invasion force to us.

I do agree with this reasoning even though I don't support plan without EB or even E. There's also nothing stopping us from putting motor on those boats to bombard advancing enemy from a safe range.
 
They're a +2 CP malus, on par with "there is a lethal flu epidemic running through your city at game start" or "you have literally zero naval presence" or for that matter "a Victorian intervention force will be showing up in turns 1-4."

Exactly how do you expect them to put us at a disadvantage, if not by acting as a prospective fifth column for the Victorians?

It is, to put it mildly, unlikely that they will somehow not present us with any consequential trouble. I fully expect them to, out of hearty, sincere patriotism and love for Chicagoland, sell us out to the Victorian expeditionary force in the name of purging Chicago of all its "disorderly" elements (like Latinos and uppity women and college professors) and instituting a nice 'orderly' retroculture government. Remember, that's what they think we should do anyway, or they wouldn't be Victorian sympathizers in the first place.

...

I get very, very worried when I see someone saying that one of the maluses isn't important and won't cause serious problems. Especially in a case like this, because while having a prospective fifth column within our state might be survivable if the Victorians were likely to stay several hundred miles away for the next few years, in a situation like this it's not unlike having pitched our tent over a nest of vipers.

I also don't understand why you think this is a purely political disadvantage when it's clearly listed under 'intelligence.' Take a look at the bonuses and maluses under 'diplomatic;' several of them are purely political, and that's where Poptart normally groups political affairs. Indeed, Domestic Connections, Good Reputation, Restart the Machine, and Fringe Elements are all entirely or almost entirely about our internal politics.

If Poptart had intended to indicate that Victorian Sympathizers was a purely domestic political problem and that our sympathizers could be counted on to stand with us even in the face of a Victorian army here to denounce us and tear down all our postmodern-cultural-neomarxist works, they could easily have put the malus under "diplomacy" with all the other purely political issues.

Having a population of many thousands of sympathizers does make it a lot easier for the Victorians to slip in agents, though. Because of those thousands of sympathizers, there are likely to be dozens or hundreds willing to let 'friendly foreign agents' into their homes.

Consider the pattern here. As the Victorians sold out the whole United States to the 'like-minded and sympathetic' Russian intelligence agencies, so we can expect our own Victorian fifth columnists to sell out Chicago to the like-minded and sympathetic Victorian intelligence agencies. They did it before, on a larger scale, and the incentives haven't changed.

More foreign informants doesn't automatically locate smugglers for us, but it helps. It means we know people, who know people. It means we have clues, it means we know where NOT to look.

In real life, coordination between jurisdictions and having plenty of information flowing between them is key to stopping smuggling. Every little bit helps. Ear to the Ground is a thing I expect to give us numerous small advantages in small ways whenever we deal with things flowing in and out of our territory, as opposed to being a super-bonus that helps us massively in a single way (the way that, say, Old World Equipment does).

Because I think that we don't need to stack up a ton of military advantages to fend off the Victorian force; I think we need a solid basis to use the advantages we have, while avoiding any crippling disadvantages that will paralyze our defenses in the face of the enemy.

Remember that our choice of Burns as leader means that we have a formidable military by default; padding that out further may be desirable, but it's not necessarily "do this or we die." Bulking up the military even further at the price of leaving ourselves wide open to Victorian espionage and terrorism is almost certainly going to backfire; remember that the Victorians have faced better-equipped enemy armies before, and defeated them in large part through terrorism and asymmetric warfare.

Moreover, Entrepot does contain the single most critical thing I can think of to give us an actual tactical advantage over the Victorians- a gunboat fleet to contest river crossings and harass any attempt they make to use the Great Lakes to send an invasion force to us.
They're worth 2points in the same vein that technological conservatism is worth 3; they give some very undesirable effects to our government. I expect we'll have issues with racism (and thus the tighter beurocratic laws to go with it and probably not completely deal with the problem), I suspect we'll need to maintain a strong coalition, and we'll need to ensure strong civilian control of the military once Burns and his elite core start retiring. The idea of a fifth column is not borne out, though, in any of the american fascist parties or the British BUF; even where the latter accepted german funding (and I suspect our revivalists will be less able to do so than the british, if we manage to get the actual campaign finance laws we dearly need anyway) nothing along the lines of a fifth column or even serious sabotage occured.

Even with the changes Poptart introduced, the entire situation with the rise of victoria is pretty much entirely black magic and duck tape. The situation so utterly denies any even tangential connection with object reality that even a reimagining can only go so far. To paraphrase Poptsrt, its a hack job done so we can get on to the story, Trying to use it to draw conclusions is just going to lesd to madness, often madness that suggests the opposite of how things actually work im the relatively sane world Poptart made for this quest.

I don't disagree, but the difference between "ears to the ground" and "interdistrict cooperstion" is literally astronomical; the comparison is nonsensical. There's a massive difference between active information sharing and a few days out of date rumors, in thay one is helpful but incomplete and the other can't even close to manage that much. It'll honestly be something of a miracle of "gathering rumors." I'd like to remind you that 1930s intelligence agencies are something of a joke on the tactical scale, both in general and when compared to their modern counterparts, and how not even that's a valid comparison point because this isn't even a full fledged spy network.
 
[X] Plan Security, Established, and Economy
[X] Securing a better Tommorow V3
[X] Hellfire Burns Vs. The World
[x] Plan All-Round Start

Vote switched.
 
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I do agree with this reasoning even though I don't support plan without EB or even E. There's also nothing stopping us from putting motor on those boats to bombard advancing enemy from a safe range.
The big thing's probably going to be being able to use gunboats to contest enemy river crossings. The main body of their army won't spend that much time in convenient mortar range of any one river if they come overland, but they'll have to cross a lot of rivers that let out onto the Ohio to reach us overland, and we can get gunboats down to the Ohio if we preposition them and plan ahead.

Conversely, if they come over the lakes...

[grins evilly]

I personally support Entrepot, but it's hard to imagine it winning at this point ;(
I am really worried about the leading plan and its confluence of maluses, frankly.

They're worth 2points in the same vein that technological conservatism is worth 3; they give some very undesirable effects to our government. I expect we'll have issues with racism (and thus the tighter beurocratic laws to go with it and probably not completely deal with the problem), I suspect we'll need to maintain a strong coalition, and we'll need to ensure strong civilian control of the military once Burns and his elite core start retiring. The idea of a fifth column is not borne out, though, in any of the american fascist parties or the British BUF; even where the latter accepted german funding (and I suspect our revivalists will be less able to do so than the british, if we manage to get the actual campaign finance laws we dearly need anyway) nothing along the lines of a fifth column or even serious sabotage occured.
The Americans and British had the great advantage of being isolated by water barriers and language gaps from Germany. We don't have that advantage with respect to Victoria.

Consider, as an example, just how badly the Austrian Nazis sold out their country to the Germans during the Anschluss, for an example of the other end of the scale of how bad things could be.

Even with the changes Poptart introduced, the entire situation with the rise of victoria is pretty much entirely black magic and duck tape. The situation so utterly denies any even tangential connection with object reality that even a reimagining can only go so far. To paraphrase Poptsrt, its a hack job done so we can get on to the story, Trying to use it to draw conclusions is just going to lesd to madness, often madness that suggests the opposite of how things actually work im the relatively sane world Poptart made for this quest.
What I'm trying to do is use the novel for at least vague guidelines of how things happened.

Like, in real life, the specific strategies pursued by the Victorians could never have worked as well as they did in the novel. But any other strategy would have been even MORE impossible without totally rewriting their bughouse nuts politics. They certainly couldn't have beaten up everyone on the continent with superior technology and firepower! So I have to assume that while they're not as wanked in this setting, they at least echo the Victorians of the novel, in terms of military and economic capabilities as well as political views. That means assuming that their tactics will include "deep raiding" and "terrorism" and "infiltrating sabotage bombs," because in the novel they did all those things, and none of them are somehow inherently impossible to do in real life.

Basically, don't expect them to be weak or stupid or to charge like brainless mooks without trying to secure the cooperation of local allies. Among other things, this is a Poptart Quest, and I don't think Poptart likes playing dumb enemies.

I don't disagree, but the difference between "ears to the ground" and "interdistrict cooperstion" is literally astronomical; the comparison is nonsensical. There's a massive difference between active information sharing and a few days out of date rumors, in thay one is helpful but incomplete and the other can't even close to manage that much. It'll honestly be something of a miracle of "gathering rumors." I'd like to remind you that 1930s intelligence agencies are something of a joke on the tactical scale, both in general and when compared to their modern counterparts, and how not even that's a valid comparison point because this isn't even a full fledged spy network.
Victoria's spy agency is trained by the competent and professional Russians and is almost certainly MUCH more savvy and capable, proportionately speaking, than most of the rest of their society. They have to be, to maintain that police state.
 
The Americans and British had the great advantage of being isolated by water barriers and language gaps from Germany. We don't have that advantage with respect to Victoria.

Consider, as an example, just how badly the Austrian Nazis sold out their country to the Germans during the Anschluss, for an example of the other end of the scale of how bad things could be.

What I'm trying to do is use the novel for at least vague guidelines of how things happened.

Like, in real life, the specific strategies pursued by the Victorians could never have worked as well as they did in the novel. But any other strategy would have been even MORE impossible without totally rewriting their bughouse nuts politics. They certainly couldn't have beaten up everyone on the continent with superior technology and firepower! So I have to assume that while they're not as wanked in this setting, they at least echo the Victorians of the novel, in terms of military and economic capabilities as well as political views. That means assuming that their tactics will include "deep raiding" and "terrorism" and "infiltrating sabotage bombs," because in the novel they did all those things, and none of them are somehow inherently impossible to do in real life.

Basically, don't expect them to be weak or stupid or to charge like brainless mooks without trying to secure the cooperation of local allies. Among other things, this is a Poptart Quest, and I don't think Poptart likes playing dumb enemies.

Victoria's spy agency is trained by the competent and professional Russians and is almost certainly MUCH more savvy and capable, proportionately speaking, than most of the rest of their society. They have to be, to maintain that police state.
The Austrian Nazis were the ruling party at the time of the Anschluss, and had been since 1933. That's not really a comparable situation in the slightest.

There's only so far you can go with that, though. Like, sure, try to use it as a guideline, but it doesn't work at that either because even after taking two giant leaps towards the reasonable in the form of Poptart's timeline edits and your reasoning, the entire thing is just Batshit. Not even the best luck in the world could make a "strategy" focused around the the propaganda of this "book," even at several steps of remove, anything approaching reasonable. If you want to figure out how things will work in any place with cause and effect it's better off to ditch it entirely as evidence.
Victoria's spy agency is trained by the competent and professional Russians and is almost certainly MUCH more savvy and capable, proportionately speaking, than most of the rest of their society. They have to be, to maintain that police state.
This part is a complete nonsequitor. What the heck does this have to do with you trying to use a ear to the ground as an anti smuggling tool?
 
[x] Plan All-Round Start
[x] Plan Go Big or Go Home
[X] Plan Security, Established, and Economy
[X] Go Medium-sized Boom
[X] Grand Theft BOOM
[X] Hellfire Burns Vs. The World
[X] Go Big or Go Boom
[x] Plan All-Round Start
 
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I didn't expect to get terribly many votes, particularly considering I didn't really push and it wasn't among the ones provided by Poptart in his vote opening post, but the fact that my Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy plan has no votes at all other than mine is concerning.

Did I miss something very unappealing about it or is it just completely unremarkable?
 
I didn't expect to get terribly many votes, particularly considering I didn't really push and it wasn't among the ones provided by Poptart in his vote opening post, but the fact that my Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy plan has no votes at all other than mine is concerning.

Did I miss something very unappealing about it or is it just completely unremarkable?
I'm going to be honest, in the sheer volume of write-in plans and discussion I wound up overlooking it. Let me see.

EDIT:

Okay, I think my main turnoffs are "Victorian Sympathizers" (see response to QTesseract) and "Empty Spaces," both of which I specifically don't like.
 
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