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Well, unless things change, then the social Democrats combined with the capitalists have the majority coalition. Looks like the socialists aren't gonna a get any successful legislation. I was really hoping we'd get a quest this time that leaned less capitalistic for once.
 
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The Enlightenment philosophical foundation, mostly, and the legal concepts stemming from that. You'd also keep the Preamble, with the middle option.

MJ, I'm not talking about what the Constitution was drafted to achieve. I'm talking about the perceived ideological foundation of the United States of America, thus my use of that language. I mean, picture me asking you, with an audience of layfolk, "What is the ideological foundation of the United States?" If you say something about the Senate's structure and organization, they're going to be giving you very strange looks. Yes, the Senate is more functionally critical, but the important thing to the question I am asking is the reaction of the observers, and they're not going to care about the Senate.

Insofar as the Constitution is ideologically inspired, it is by the Enlightenment movement. It is into the ideas stemming from that movement and echoed in the Constitution that the option to retain broad pointers from the Constitution would tap. It draws legitimacy by tapping into that foundation. It's not for the sake of legality, and it frankly doesn't care that the history of the Bill of Rights was hardly as inspiring as many like to think; it's to appeal to the Revivalist sentiment.

Does that clarify what I'm saying?

Oh. Okay, then! Middle option isn't nearly as terrible as I was lead to believe! Changing vote

[X][IDEALS] Social Democrat: Centered around the idea that it is the state's responsibility to ensure a bare-minimum standard of living, the Social Democrats add to the New Capitalist agenda with a push for a government guarantee of adequate housing, food, and water to all citizens -- itself a fairly titanic task. It remains rooted in the fundamental ideal of private enterprise. The Social Democrats have some interest in the potential of democratized workplaces and are willing to support them in an experimental measure.
[X][IDEALS] Socialist: Having come to refer to a specific political movement rather than an entire branch of ideology, modern socialism is focused on giving the state the power to care for all citizens, and claims that the modern Social Democrat platform does not go far enough in pursuit of this. It also calls for a massive investment into healthcare in order to revitalize the field and make sure that there are enough medical professionals to go around (long-term, they want free healthcare, but there needs to be enough of it first). They also grant unions extensive privileges over private employers. They are fervently in favor of democratized workplaces, and openly campaign in favor of granting them special concessions.

[X][CRUSH] None. This is a democracy. If your ideology cannot make its case to the people in practice, it deserves to fail.

[X][POWER] You are a centralized federal state along the lines of the later United States.

[X][TEXT] The Constitution serves as a broad guide for the structure of this document, and many legal concepts integral to it carry through, but it is rewritten from the ground up to serve its new situation rather than simply amending it until it fits.

[X][REVIEW] The new Constitution should be put to review and possible revision every thirty years.
 
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Well, unless things change, then the social Democrats combined with the capitalists have the majority coalition. Looks like the socialists aren't gonna a get any successful legislation. I was really hoping we'd get a quest this time that leaned less capitalistic for once.

I mean, there's a bunch of communists too, if we're making coalitions now. But either of those coalitions suffer from most of the members of the junior partner having voted for both. SocDem-Socialist seems like the only reasonable coalition, honestly.
 
I mean, there's a bunch of communists too, if we're making coalitions now. But either of those coalitions suffer from most of the members of the junior partner having voted for both. SocDem-Socialist seems like the only reasonable coalition, honestly.
All but one communist also voted for socialism. They are not a block. What you have is the majority of people voting for social Democrat, and a lot coming for socialism, but a big enough potion of social Dems leaning more towards capitalism, that the socialists don't matter really anymore unless they can tip some of the social Dems/capitalists to their side
 
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The vote right now is literally dead even. What the actual fuck is going on?

Also, I hope that Poptart's explanation and clarification on MJ's claims and assumptions will turn the Constitution vote around. It seems to me that a lot of people voted for the "throw the entire thing out" mostly based on MJ's assumptions and claims, most of which ended up being wrong.
Unless some social Dems were willing to vote further left.
Why wouldn't they? People change their opinions all the time based on new information/argumentation and voting for Social Democrat doesn't mean I won't vote to expand the Workplace Democracy program/subsidies in the future if it proves to be successful. It's not like I'm ideologically opposed to it or similar programs as long as they're voluntary in nature.

There's also the fact that this vote is fairly general in nature while future voting is probably going to be centered around certain issues. Some socialist issues might find more appeal than others while the same is true for the social democrats.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and of course the voting base might also change over time. People may leave and join the quest which might tip the scales.
 
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The vote right now is literally dead even. What the actual fuck is going on?

Also, I hope that Poptart's explanation and clarification on MJ's claims and assumptions will turn the Constitution vote around. It seems to me that a lot of people voted for the "throw the entire thing out" mostly based on MJ's assumptions and claims, most of which ended up being wrong.

Why wouldn't they? People change their opinions all the time based on new information/argumentation and voting for Social Democrat doesn't mean I won't vote to expand the Workplace Democracy program/subsidies in the future if it proves to be successful. It's not like I'm ideologically opposed to it or similar programs as long as they're voluntary in nature.

There's also the fact that this vote is fairly general in nature while future voting is probably going to be centered around certain issues. Some socialist issues might find more appeal than others while the same is true for the social democrats.
Workplace democracy cannot be successful in a market controlled by capitalists unless it get initial support from the government to give it a fighting chance.
 
The vote right now is literally dead even. What the actual fuck is going on?

Yeah, I'll drop my vote for SocDem. That'll leave it Social 67, SocDem 66.
Adhoc vote count started by Shadowhisker on Mar 16, 2019 at 7:01 AM, finished with 619 posts and 120 votes.
 
Workplace democracy cannot be successful in a market controlled by capitalists unless it get initial support from the government to give it a fighting chance.
But it can. There are companies with workplace democracy in place today despite the capitalistic nature of western society. There's also the fact that the Social Democrat option literally does what you're asking: "Select democratized businesses from a selection of industries gain government subsidies in order to give them a head start and see how they play."
Yeah, I'll drop my vote for SocDem. That'll leave it Social 67, SocDem 66.
Well, you can certainly do that but I'd really prefer it if you didn't. I'm sure there'll be more votes before Poptart closes the vote so you don't really need to change your vote to be a tie-breaker.

EDIT: Like the dude right below me.
 
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[X][IDEALS] Social Democrat
[X][CRUSH] None
[x][POWER] You are a centralized federal state along the lines of the later United States.
[X][TEXT] The Constitution serves as a broad guide for the structure of this document, and many legal concepts integral to it carry through, but it is rewritten from the ground up to serve its new situation rather than simply amending it until it fits.
[X][REVIEW] The new Constitution should be put to review and possible revision every thirty years.
 
Socdem up by 1
Adhoc vote count started by Aranfan on Mar 16, 2019 at 7:23 AM, finished with 627 posts and 121 votes.
 
But it can. There are companies with workplace democracy in place today despite the capitalistic nature of western society. There's also the fact that the Social Democrat option literally does what you're asking: "Select democratized businesses from a selection of industries gain government subsidies in order to give them a head start and see how they play."

Well, you can certainly do that but I'd really prefer it if you didn't. I'm sure there'll be more votes before Poptart closes the vote so you don't really need to change your vote to be a tie-breaker.

EDIT: Like the dude right below me.

Social Democracy still leaves businesses in place that can be swayed by foreign capital, are run by a small group of owners who are much easier to subvert than a whole workplace and are driven by the profit motive to maximize profits by whatever means they can get away with. Workplace democracy, in the form of worker co-ops, don't do that. They, by contrast, are required to maximize the benefits for the members which depending on the situation could mean not laying people off, using rotational systems, donating a portion of their revenues or products to the local community and a whole host of other things. There's loads of studies showing, along with worker co-ops being more productive and efficient, that worker co-ops are better neighbors because the people making the decisions are the people who live in the community in question.

Also what is going to protect our democratic process from being corrupted by private profits? That's a big part of what undermined the pre-collapse United States to the point that academic studies show it is much closer to being an oligarchy than any sort of representative democracy. Do you really want to reproduce a system that makes a pretense of democracy while actively representing the interests of those who can afford to buy their own pet legislators? That, to me, looks like a system that would be easily subverted by the Victorians simply by exploiting the divisions between what the elected government is doing and what people actually want.

There's also two problems with the Social Democracy model that show it would actually be pretty unsuitable given our current circumstances.

The first is that we don't actually have the mountains of capital, a developed economy and other factors that would make such a system even remotely possible. Sweden, for example, depends heavily on an export-based economy that sends high-value weapons, pharmaceuticals and other commodities to an active, healthy global market to make their system work. We don't have that. Norway makes their model work based on the wealth of North Sea Oil and, again, exporting it to other countries. We definitely don't have that. Denmark also relies, though not to the same extent, on having healthy and dynamic trading relationships with other developed, wealthy economies.

Who is it we're supposed to be trading with who can produce such wealth to sustain our economy and society? The Victorians who hate all things that are more sophisticated than the transistor and revel in selling people into sex slavery? The even more impoverished communities nearby who we're hoping to bring into the fold anyway? The ruins of Canada? The New California Republic who sends most of their wealth and goods off in the form of tribute to Russia?

How exactly are you going to make a trade-based model work when there's no one to trade with?

The second problem is Social Democracy can and has been hollowed out before by the interests of the market. Just look at Margaret Thatcher if you don't believe me or, even better, Ronald Reagan. What is it about our hypothetical Social Democracy that's going to make it more secure against such actions when we're in a weaker position, don't have the trading relationships that made the Nordic Model, France, Germany or the United Kingdom actually wealthy enough to implement such policies and will be facing businesses who I guarantee will be howling bloody murder just as they always have when the government tries to enforce the welfare state with insufficient resources?

The simple fact is, as nice as Social Democracy may sound on paper, the model proposed simply cannot work without a global context that does not exist.

Socialism, by contrast, will be focusing on building up the resources we have, bootstrapping the resources of workers and communities with direct intervention and support from the government and encouraging business structures that will be far more focused on people's needs and community welfare over private profit. It won't need the outside web of trading relationships the vaunted Nordic Model requires to be viable in the first place. In fact, ironically enough, through robust industrial and economic development it will put us in the position of becoming a trading power. It also won't, as some have implied, destroy market-based relations or trade. Private enterprise will still exist but it won't be operating in a position where it can either crush worker enterprises using the same methods big business has always employed or subvert the democratic processes we hold dear.

Social Democracy is, in our current circumstances, a pipe dream. Socialism will actually deliver everything it promises. If you want a healthy, functional Chicago then I say vote for the model that will actually work and won't depend on either virtuous corporate magnates or outside trade relationships that don't exist. If you want a Chicago that can actually united America again then vote solely for the system that will do the job.
 
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[X][CRUSH] None. This is a democracy. If your ideology cannot make its case to the people in practice, it deserves to fail.

[X][IDEALS] Social Democrat: Centered around the idea that it is the state's responsibility to ensure a bare-minimum standard of living, the Social Democrats add to the New Capitalist agenda with a push for a government guarantee of adequate housing, food, and water to all citizens -- itself a fairly titanic task. It remains rooted in the fundamental ideal of private enterprise. The Social Democrats have some interest in the potential of democratized workplaces and are willing to support them in an experimental measure.

[X][POWER] You are a decentralized federal state somewhat akin to the early United States

[X][TEXT] The Constitution serves as a broad guide for the structure of this document, and many legal concepts integral to it carry through, but it is rewritten from the ground up to serve its new situation rather than simply amending it until it fits.

[X][REVIEW] The new Constitution should be put to review and possible revision every thirty years.
 
[X][IDEALS] Socialist: Having come to refer to a specific political movement rather than an entire branch of ideology, modern socialism is focused on giving the state the power to care for all citizens, and claims that the modern Social Democrat platform does not go far enough in pursuit of this. It also calls for a massive investment into healthcare in order to revitalize the field and make sure that there are enough medical professionals to go around (long-term, they want free healthcare, but there needs to be enough of it first). They also grant unions extensive privileges over private employers. They are fervently in favor of democratized workplaces, and openly campaign in favor of granting them special concessions.
[X][IDEALS] Communist: The old revolutionary ideology has elected to push for their aims in the democratic process. Their modern platform, in this setting, is centered around the absolute implementation of workplace democracy in addition to the same welfare and legal measures proposed by other movements. The aims of the American Communists in the present day are to break the concept of private ownership of businesses, which places them in stark opposition to Capitalist and Social Democrat thought of this era. This is a part of a larger drive towards a transition to a fully Communist society, but the Communists have quite enough to be focused on at the moment and are leaving that aside.

[X][CRUSH] None. This is a democracy. If your ideology cannot make its case to the people in practice, it deserves to fail.
[X][CRUSH] Some of the central tenets of the founding government's ideology are written into foundational law, making it difficult for even violently opposed successor governments to fully roll them back without immense popular support.

[X][POWER] You are a devolved unitary state with subordinate governments formed or dissolved by central governmental decrees according to need
[X][POWER] You are a centralized federal state along the lines of the later United States.

[X][TEXT] The Constitution serves as a broad guide for the structure of this document, and many legal concepts integral to it carry through, but it is rewritten from the ground up to serve its new situation rather than simply amending it until it fits.

[X][REVIEW] The new Constitution should be put to review and possible revision every thirty years.
 
The simple fact is, as nice as Social Democracy may sound on paper, the model proposed simply cannot work without a global context that does not exist.

Socialism, by contrast, will be focusing on building up the resources we have, bootstrapping the resources of workers and communities with direct intervention and support from the government and encouraging business structures that will be far more focused on people's needs and community welfare over private profit. It won't need the outside web of trading relationships the vaunted Nordic Model requires to be viable in the first place. In fact, ironically enough, through robust industrial and economic development it will put us in the position of becoming a trading power. It also won't, as some have implied, destroy market-based relations or trade. Private enterprise will still exist but it won't be operating in a position where it can either crush worker enterprises using the same methods big business has always employed or subvert the democratic processes we hold dear.

Social Democracy is, in our current circumstances, a pipe dream. Socialism will actually deliver everything it promises. If you want a healthy, functional Chicago then I say vote for the model that will actually work and won't depend on either virtuous corporate magnates or outside trade relationships that don't exist. If you want a Chicago that can actually united America again then vote solely for the system that will do the job.
I see this shit again and again and all I can do is direct you to WoG from Poptart because quite frankly, I don't think we can adequately determine whether or not Social Democracy or Socialism would work in the actual context:
As such, I've decided not to make any given ideology mechanically superior to any other. I'm not interested in wading into that debate. This is the same world that supports a functioning Victoria; the narrative will assume that whatever you set up, it'll work all right. The upsides and downsides will instead relate to how people react to whichever ideology wins. Of course, the ethical dimension of the question also remains, and you all are free to argue it -- civilly, if you please. We've made enough trouble for 4WheelSword already. But I'm not going to make enemies by making capitalism/social democracy/socialism/communism mechanically superior to any other ideology.
Frankly, it's incredibly tiring to see these sorts of arguments from the Socialist "bloc" and it's completely counterproductive to the actual vote, which is about the general dominant ideology of the first government and not whether or not it's feasible to implement a Nordic model of social democracy right from the start. Hell, Poptart tells you that the ideologies presented are: "not a true-to-life representation of their aims in modern reality. Decouple your assumptions."
 
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Rule 3: Be Civil
I see this shit again and again and all I can do is direct you to WoG from Poptart because quite frankly, I don't think we can adequately determine whether or not Social Democracy or Socialism would work in the actual context:

Frankly, it's incredibly tiring to see these sorts of arguments from the Socialist "bloc" and it's completely counterproductive to the actual vote, which is about the general dominant ideology of the first government and not whether or not it's feasible to implement a Nordic model of social democracy right from the start.

Reality disagrees pretty hard with your position unfortunately. You can WoG it all you want, it doesn't change that from a standpoint of the actual dynamics of the economic system you argue that Social Democracy is only possible given a set of circumstances that don't exist.

If the only thing you can point to is the rules that suggests your argument is bunk and you know it.

It's also pretty rich for you to call anything shit when you've done nothing but argue in bad faith, misrepresent that Socialism means an end to market economics completely and generally resort to rules lawyering instead of actually arguing the point at hand. If you want good faith engagement then give it.
 
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Reality disagrees pretty hard with your position unfortunately. You can WoG it all you want, it doesn't change that from a standpoint of the actual dynamics of the economic system you argue that Social Democracy is only possible given a set of circumstances that don't exist.

If the only thing you can point to is the rules that suggests your argument is bunk and you know it.
It might suggest that but the fact of the matter is that I don't feel qualified to determine which economic system would fare better in the setting and I'm a fucking poli-sci major. If you want to spout your beliefs about the inadequacy of Social Democracy in the setting I can't stop you but you can't force me to have an argument with you on the topic, no matter how much you may wish to denigrate my beliefs.

Also, none of your links actually prove that social democracy couldn't function well in a economy that isn't export-focused. It merely proves that the current Nordic countries have an export-focused economy. You could stand to be a bit more rigorous in your research before making such sweeping claims.
 
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