Victoria Falls: A Post-Collapse American Nation Quest [Down With Victoria!]

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KnightDisciple said:

It's not even a freaking vote item yet! I am personally unconvinced about the need for a mandatory "review" of the basic foundation and laws of our society every 30 freaking years.

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As a French citizen, I can tell you that any Constitution that hasn't been re-debated every 50 years or so is probably a poor one.

We're at our 5th republic in less than 3 centuries, after all! We'd know! And the mainstream political party I voted for last election is pushing for a 6th Republic!


Even America revised its Constitution in the past, after all. And we all know how fetishistic the 'muricans get about that document!

And that's why some people consider this to be a valid quest vote. It's not a fringe idea or anything. There's a reason why the Americans have the world's longest-lasting Constitution despite not having gotten on the democracy bandwagon especially early.

[X][IDEALS] Social Democrat
[X][CRUSH] Some of the central tenets of the founding government's ideology are written into foundational law, making it difficult for even violently opposed successor governments to fully roll them back without immense popular support.
[X][POWER] You are a devolved unitary state with subordinate governments formed or dissolved by central governmental decrees according to need
[X][POWER] You are a centralized federal state along the lines of the later United States.
[x][TEXT] The Constitution serves as a broad guide for the structure of this document, and many legal concepts integral to it carry through, but it is rewritten from the ground up to serve its new situation rather than simply amending it until it fits.
[x][REVIEW] The new Constitution should be put to review and possible revision every thirty years.

[X][IDEALS] Socialist: Having come to refer to a specific political movement rather than an entire branch of ideology, modern socialism is focused on giving the state the power to care for allcitizens, and claims that the modern Social Democrat platform does not go far enough in pursuit of this. It also calls for a massive investment into healthcare in order to revitalize the field and make sure that there are enough medical professionals to go around (long-term, they want free healthcare, but there needs to be enough of it first). They also grant unions extensive privileges over private employers. They are fervently in favor of democratized workplaces, and openly campaign in favor of granting them special concessions.
[X][IDEALS] Communist: The old revolutionary ideology has elected to push for their aims in the democratic process. Their modern platform, in this setting, is centered around the absolute implementation of workplace democracy in addition to the same welfare and legal measures proposed by other movements. The aims of the American Communists in the present day are to break the concept of private ownership of businesses, which places them in stark opposition to Capitalist and Social Democrat thought of this era. This is a part of a larger drive towards a transition to a fully Communist society, but the Communists have quite enough to be focused on at the moment and are leaving that aside.

[X][CRUSH] None. This is a democracy. If your ideology cannot make its case to the people in practice, it deserves to fail.

[X][POWER] You are a centralized federal state along the lines of the later United States.
[X][POWER] You are a decentralized federal state somewhat akin to the early United States.

[X][TEXT] The Constitution was utterly bereft of any kind of legal, political, or ethical merit and shall be cast into the trash heap of history where it belongs. We shall start anew from a blank slate.
[X][REVIEW] The new Constitution should be put to review and possible revision every thirty years.

[X][IDEALS] Social Democrat
[X][CRUSH] Some of the central tenets of the founding government's ideology are written into foundational law, making it difficult for even violently opposed successor governments to fully roll them back without immense popular support.
[X][POWER] You are a devolved unitary state with subordinate governments formed or dissolved by central governmental decrees according to need
[X][POWER] You are a centralized federal state along the lines of the later United States.
[x][TEXT] The Constitution serves as a broad guide for the structure of this document, and many legal concepts integral to it carry through, but it is rewritten from the ground up to serve its new situation rather than simply amending it until it fits.
[x][REVIEW] The new Constitution should be put to review and possible revision every thirty years.

USA OR BUST, With Some Improvements for modern day.

[X][IDEALS] Social Democrat: Centered around the idea that it is the state's responsibility to ensure a bare-minimum standard of living, the Social Democrats add to the New Capitalist agenda with a push for a government guarantee of adequate housing, food, and water to all citizens -- itself a fairly titanic task. It remains rooted in the fundamental ideal of private enterprise. The Social Democrats have some interest in the potential of democratized workplaces and are willing to support them in an experimental measure.
[X][CRUSH] None. This is a democracy. If your ideology cannot make its case to the people in practice, it deserves to fail.
[X][POWER] You are a centralized federal state along the lines of the later United States.
[X][TEXT] The Constitution serves as a broad guide for the structure of this document, and many legal concepts integral to it carry through, but it is rewritten from the ground up to serve its new situation rather than simply amending it until it fits.
[X][REVIEW] The new Constitution will serve just fine with a standardized system for proposing amendments.

avatar11792 said:

@PoptartProdigy : Can we put a write-in for the review? Like instead of 30 years, go for 50 years? I feel like 30 years isn't long enough to justify political system updating, but twice per century would be.

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Sure, I'll clear it.

[X][IDEALS] Socialist: Having come to refer to a specific political movement rather than an entire branch of ideology, modern socialism is focused on giving the state the power to care for allcitizens, and claims that the modern Social Democrat platform does not go far enough in pursuit of this. It also calls for a massive investment into healthcare in order to revitalize the field and make sure that there are enough medical professionals to go around (long-term, they want free healthcare, but there needs to be enough of it first). They also grant unions extensive privileges over private employers. They are fervently in favor of democratized workplaces, and openly campaign in favor of granting them special concessions.
[x][IDEALS] Communist: The old revolutionary ideology has elected to push for their aims in the democratic process. Their modern platform, in this setting, is centered around the absolute implementation of workplace democracy in addition to the same welfare and legal measures proposed by other movements. The aims of the American Communists in the present day are to break the concept of private ownership of businesses, which places them in stark opposition to Capitalist and Social Democrat thought of this era. This is a part of a larger drive towards a transition to a fully Communist society, but the Communists have quite enough to be focused on at the moment and are leaving that aside.

[X][CRUSH] Some of the central tenets of the founding government's ideology are written into foundational law, making it difficult for even violently opposed successor governments to fully roll them back without immense popular support.

[X][POWER] You are a devolved unitary state with subordinate governments formed or dissolved by central governmental decrees according to need

[X][TEXT] The Constitution serves as a broad guide for the structure of this document, and many legal concepts integral to it carry through, but it is rewritten from the ground up to serve its new situation rather than simply amending it until it fits.
[X][TEXT] The Constitution was utterly bereft of any kind of legal, political, or ethical merit and shall be cast into the trash heap of history where it belongs. We shall start anew from a blank slate.

[x][REVIEW] The new Constitution should be put to review and possible revision every thirty years.

[x][IDEALS] Socialist: Having come to refer to a specific political movement rather than an entire branch of ideology, modern socialism is focused on giving the state the power to care for allcitizens, and claims that the modern Social Democrat platform does not go far enough in pursuit of this. It also calls for a massive investment into healthcare in order to revitalize the field and make sure that there are enough medical professionals to go around (long-term, they want free healthcare, but there needs to be enough of it first). They also grant unions extensive privileges over private employers. They are fervently in favor of democratized workplaces, and openly campaign in favor of granting them special concessions.
[x][IDEALS] Communist: The old revolutionary ideology has elected to push for their aims in the democratic process. Their modern platform, in this setting, is centered around the absolute implementation of workplace democracy in addition to the same welfare and legal measures proposed by other movements. The aims of the American Communists in the present day are to break the concept of private ownership of businesses, which places them in stark opposition to Capitalist and Social Democrat thought of this era. This is a part of a larger drive towards a transition to a fully Communist society, but the Communists have quite enough to be focused on at the moment and are leaving that aside.

[x][CRUSH] None. This is a democracy. If your ideology cannot make its case to the people in practice, it deserves to fail.

[x][POWER] You are a centralized federal state along the lines of the later United States.

[x][TEXT] The Constitution was utterly bereft of any kind of legal, political, or ethical merit and shall be cast into the trash heap of history where it belongs. We shall start anew from a blank slate.
[x][REVIEW] The new Constitution should be put to review and possible revision every thirty years.

[x][IDEALS] Socialist: Having come to refer to a specific political movement rather than an entire branch of ideology, modern socialism is focused on giving the state the power to care for allcitizens, and claims that the modern Social Democrat platform does not go far enough in pursuit of this. It also calls for a massive investment into healthcare in order to revitalize the field and make sure that there are enough medical professionals to go around (long-term, they want free healthcare, but there needs to be enough of it first). They also grant unions extensive privileges over private employers. They are fervently in favor of democratized workplaces, and openly campaign in favor of granting them special concessions.
[x][IDEALS] Communist: The old revolutionary ideology has elected to push for their aims in the democratic process. Their modern platform, in this setting, is centered around the absolute implementation of workplace democracy in addition to the same welfare and legal measures proposed by other movements. The aims of the American Communists in the present day are to break the concept of private ownership of businesses, which places them in stark opposition to Capitalist and Social Democrat thought of this era. This is a part of a larger drive towards a transition to a fully Communist society, but the Communists have quite enough to be focused on at the moment and are leaving that aside.

[x][CRUSH] None. This is a democracy. If your ideology cannot make its case to the people in practice, it deserves to fail.

[x][POWER] You are a centralized federal state along the lines of the later United States.

[x][TEXT] The Constitution serves as a broad guide for the structure of this document, and many legal concepts integral to it carry through, but it is rewritten from the ground up to serve its new situation rather than simply amending it until it fits.
[x][TEXT] The Constitution was utterly bereft of any kind of legal, political, or ethical merit and shall be cast into the trash heap of history where it belongs. We shall start anew from a blank slate.
[x][REVIEW] The new Constitution should be put to review and possible revision every thirty years.

TalonofAnathrax said:

As a French citizen, I can tell you that any Constitution that hasn't been re-debated every 50 years or so is probably a poor one.

We're at our 5th republic in less than 3 centuries, after all! We'd know! And the mainstream political party I voted for last election is pushing for a 6th Republic!


Even America revised its Constitution in the past, after all. And we all know how fetishistic the 'muricans get about that document!

And that's why some people consider this to be a valid quest vote. It's not a fringe idea or anything. There's a reason why the Americans have the world's longest-lasting Constitution despite not having gotten on the democracy bandwagon especially early.

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Click to shrink...

There's a difference between adding Amendments, and intentionally building in a complete rewrite. Amendments are fine. And in time, a rewrite might be required. But a hard-coded 30-year time span?

Also, my objection was statements that sounded like people were treating this as something that was a settled matter, rather than an item of debate.

Oh boy, here we go nation crafting again.

[X][IDEALS] Social Democrat
[X][IDEALS] Socialist

[X][CRUSH] None

[X][POWER] You are a devolved unitary state with subordinate governments formed or dissolved by central governmental decrees according to need
[X][POWER] You are a centralized federal state along the lines of the later United States.

[X][TEXT] The old Constitution had its flaws, but it was a document of many strengths as well. It lasted two and a half centuries. We shall honor that and preserve the original. Our changes will be amendments, as intended, with our population approving them as specified in the text.
[X][TEXT] The Constitution serves as a broad guide for the structure of this document, and many legal concepts integral to it carry through, but it is rewritten from the ground up to serve its new situation rather than simply amending it until it fits.

[X][CRUSH] None. This is a democracy. If your ideology cannot make its case to the people in practice, it deserves to fail.

[X][IDEALS] Social Democrat
[X][IDEALS] Socialist

[X][TEXT] The old Constitution had its flaws, but it was a document of many strengths as well. It lasted two and a half centuries. We shall honor that and preserve the original. Our changes will be amendments, as intended, with our population approving them as specified in the text.
[X][TEXT] The Constitution serves as a broad guide for the structure of this document, and many legal concepts integral to it carry through, but it is rewritten from the ground up to serve its new situation rather than simply amending it until it fits.

[X][REVIEW] The new Constitution will serve just fine with a standardized system for proposing amendments.

I am opposed to the regularized reviews because they create regular bursts of uncertainty and chaos in the basic structure of the government. Amendments should be made easier to pass, but the whole point of amendments is that each one is a single line-item proposition. They can't just rewrite the whole Constitution in one go and say 'like it or lump it.' A constitutional convention can, and this is not a good thing except in cases where no previous constitution existed or where the previous one was well and truly terrible.

[x][IDEALS] Socialist: Having come to refer to a specific political movement rather than an entire branch of ideology, modern socialism is focused on giving the state the power to care for allcitizens, and claims that the modern Social Democrat platform does not go far enough in pursuit of this. It also calls for a massive investment into healthcare in order to revitalize the field and make sure that there are enough medical professionals to go around (long-term, they want free healthcare, but there needs to be enough of it first). They also grant unions extensive privileges over private employers. They are fervently in favor of democratized workplaces, and openly campaign in favor of granting them special concessions.
[x][IDEALS] Communist: The old revolutionary ideology has elected to push for their aims in the democratic process. Their modern platform, in this setting, is centered around the absolute implementation of workplace democracy in addition to the same welfare and legal measures proposed by other movements. The aims of the American Communists in the present day are to break the concept of private ownership of businesses, which places them in stark opposition to Capitalist and Social Democrat thought of this era. This is a part of a larger drive towards a transition to a fully Communist society, but the Communists have quite enough to be focused on at the moment and are leaving that aside.

[x][CRUSH] None. This is a democracy. If your ideology cannot make its case to the people in practice, it deserves to fail.

[x][POWER] You are a centralized federal state along the lines of the later United States.

[x][TEXT] The Constitution was utterly bereft of any kind of legal, political, or ethical merit and shall be cast into the trash heap of history where it belongs. We shall start anew from a blank slate.

[x][REVIEW] The new Constitution should be put to review and possible revision every thirty years.

[X][IDEALS] Socialist: Having come to refer to a specific political movement rather than an entire branch of ideology, modern socialism is focused on giving the state the power to care for allcitizens, and claims that the modern Social Democrat platform does not go far enough in pursuit of this. It also calls for a massive investment into healthcare in order to revitalize the field and make sure that there are enough medical professionals to go around (long-term, they want free healthcare, but there needs to be enough of it first). They also grant unions extensive privileges over private employers. They are fervently in favor of democratized workplaces, and openly campaign in favor of granting them special concessions.
[X][IDEALS] Communist: The old revolutionary ideology has elected to push for their aims in the democratic process. Their modern platform, in this setting, is centered around the absolute implementation of workplace democracy in addition to the same welfare and legal measures proposed by other movements. The aims of the American Communists in the present day are to break the concept of private ownership of businesses, which places them in stark opposition to Capitalist and Social Democrat thought of this era. This is a part of a larger drive towards a transition to a fully Communist society, but the Communists have quite enough to be focused on at the moment and are leaving that aside.

[X][CRUSH] None. This is a democracy. If your ideology cannot make its case to the people in practice, it deserves to fail.

[X][POWER] You are a centralized federal state along the lines of the later United States.
[X][POWER] You are a decentralized federal state somewhat akin to the early United States.

[X][TEXT] The Constitution was utterly bereft of any kind of legal, political, or ethical merit and shall be cast into the trash heap of history where it belongs. We shall start anew from a blank slate.
[X][REVIEW] The new Constitution should be put to review and possible revision every thirty years.

[X][IDEALS] Social Democrat: Centered around the idea that it is the state's responsibility to ensure a bare-minimum standard of living, the Social Democrats add to the New Capitalist agenda with a push for a government guarantee of adequate housing, food, and water to all citizens -- itself a fairly titanic task. It remains rooted in the fundamental ideal of private enterprise. The Social Democrats have some interest in the potential of democratized workplaces and are willing to support them in an experimental measure.
[X][CRUSH] Some of the central tenets of the founding government's ideology are written into foundational law, making it difficult for even violently opposed successor governments to fully roll them back without immense popular support.
[x][POWER] You are a centralized federal state along the lines of the later United States.
[X][TEXT] The Constitution serves as a broad guide for the structure of this document, and many legal concepts integral to it carry through, but it is rewritten from the ground up to serve its new situation rather than simply amending it until it fits.

[X][IDEALS] Social Democrat: Centered around the idea that it is the state's responsibility to ensure a bare-minimum standard of living, the Social Democrats add to the New Capitalist agenda with a push for a government guarantee of adequate housing, food, and water to all citizens -- itself a fairly titanic task. It remainsrooted in the fundamental ideal of private enterprise. The Social Democrats have some interest in the potential of democratized workplaces and are willing to support them in an experimental measure.
[X][CRUSH] Some of the central tenets of the founding government's ideology are written into foundational law, making it difficult for even violently opposed successor governments to fully roll them back without immense popular support.
[x][POWER] You are a centralized federal state along the lines of the later United States.
[X][TEXT] The Constitution serves as a broad guide for the structure of this document, and many legal concepts integral to it carry through, but it is rewritten from the ground up to serve its new situation rather than simply amending it until it fits.

[X][IDEALS] Social Democrat
[X][IDEALS] Socialist

[X][CRUSH] None. This is a democracy. If your ideology cannot make its case to the people in practice, it deserves to fail.
[X][CRUSH] Some of the central tenets of the founding government's ideology are written into foundational law, making it difficult for even violently opposed successor governments to fully roll them back without immense popular support.

[X][POWER] You are a devolved unitary state with subordinate governments formed or dissolved by central governmental decrees according to need
[X][POWER] You are a centralized federal state along the lines of the later United States.

[X][TEXT] The Constitution was utterly bereft of any kind of legal, political, or ethical merit and shall be cast into the trash heap of history where it belongs. We shall start anew from a blank slate.

[X][TEXT] The Constitution serves as a broad guide for the structure of this document, and many legal concepts integral to it carry through, but it is rewritten from the ground up to serve its new situation rather than simply amending it until it fits.

Artificial Girl said:

Why would you make an AR-18 when you could have GLORIOUS FN FAL RIGHT ARM OF THE FREE WORLD in a reasonable 5.56mm or .280 British.

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It's a century-old design, man. And it's just a rifle.
When we can go for half as old guns and take, for example, ADS for same on-land performance but also allowing our minutemen to cosplay frogs.

KnightDisciple said:

There's a difference between adding Amendments, and intentionally building in a complete rewrite. Amendments are fine. And in time, a rewrite might be required. But a hard-coded 30-year time span?

Also, my objection was statements that sounded like people were treating this as something that was a settled matter, rather than an item of debate.

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The way I envision the review system working is more that "Should we revise the constitution?" gets put on the ballot and if enough people vote for it, you convene a convention before the next general election and if you really want to you can just make it the exact same (although if the populace genuinely wants revisions that might be a bad idea for the delegates). It's not necessarily must be revised, but hardcodes the possibility of revision, if desired.

Dwergar said:

It's a century-old design, man. And it's just a rifle.
When we can go for half as old guns and take, for example, ADS for same on-land performance but also allowing our minutemen to cosplay frogs.

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This kind of stuff is heavily dependent on what kind of tech and industrial base we can scrape together. We aren't intentionally retro-tech like Victoria, but the web of supply chains, education and precision equipment that allows for advanced stuff to proliferate has been pretty thoroughly wrecked.

Cheap, stamped steel submachine guns for everybody!