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Victoria Falls: A Post-Collapse American Nation Quest [Down With Victoria!]

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Artificial Girl said:
We should obviously go full Wehraboo and recreate Panthers right down to the faulty transmissions. :V

(Note: Do not do this. Just make Super Shermans.)
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Panthers... Shermans...
Why, when PANHARD AML or equivalent would be perfectly serviceable and so much cheaper?

Like, South Africans had managed to defeat tank batallions of Cubans - no slouches themselves! - with these, and Cubans had T-55s at their disposal.
 
Magoose said:
Or Abrams... Abrams work to... Though I do not mind Super Shermans if we have no way to get Abrams working.
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Abrams are like... extremely technologically sophisticated pieces of equipment that uses a gas turbine engine and guzzles petrol like there's no tomorrow. On top of that it has a metallic/ceramic composite armor with a depleted uranium mesh. Something older and simpler is probably a better idea.
 
A
Artificial Girl said:
Abrams are like... extremely technologically sophisticated pieces of equipment that uses a gas turbine engine and guzzles petrol like there's no tomorrow. On top of that it has a metallic/ceramic composite armor with a depleted uranium mesh. Something older and simpler is probably a better idea.
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for now anyways. Well. now's our chance to make guns derived from the ar 18 instead of the 15 if we want.
 
Artificial Girl said:
Abrams are like... extremely technologically sophisticated pieces of equipment that uses a gas turbine engine and guzzles petrol like there's no tomorrow. On top of that it has a metallic/ceramic composite armor with a depleted uranium mesh. Something older and simpler is probably a better idea.
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So we need to use Patton Tanks then?
 
Anyway, some rebuttals to the anti-socialist talking points presented by Poptart:

Even though the Soviet Union may have been oppressive and Russian-dominated, it's worth pointing out that it arose as a successful attempt to overthrow the same Russian Tsardom that is now aiding Victoria, and that their ideology was basically the polar opposite of tsarism. Lumping together both the Soviet Union and the current Russian Tsardom under the same "evil Russki" umbrella is basically thinly-veiled racism, in my books. If the Soviet Union had allowed multi-party elections instead of being completely dominated by the Communist Party, it actually would have been one of the most democratic states ever due to its council-based constitution. Even under its authoritarian regime, the Soviet Union was a massive improvement in quality of life compared to the previous Russian Tsardom, thanks to industrialization and a more meritocratic social structure. After all, the Soviet Union managed to transition from an agrarian society into a fully industrialized one in only two decades, twice as fast as China. I can speak from experience- my grandparents came from impoverished rural families in Romania, but were able to climb up the social ranks thanks to the Communist-led industrialization effort in Socialist Romania, and my parents grew up as well-educated professionals, something that would have been far less likely to happen if Romania had stayed agrarian. I'm not apologizing for the repressive actions of the Socialist Republic of Romania or the Soviet Union, I'm just showing the other side of the story that has been neglected due to persistent Cold War attitudes. Finally, it's worth noting that much of the toxic ideology of Victoria was born out of the United States' war against communism, and grew out of the anti-communist conservatism that would hold a vice grip on the US even after the Soviet Union had been defeated. After all, the racists of the Deep South and many "respectable moderates" justified their opposition to the Civil Rights Movement by accusing them of being communist sympathizers, as it was the Communists who were the first to organize oppressed black communities in the South in the 1920s.

P.S.: It's also kind of weird to accuse these Communists of wanting to bring about a centrally planned dictatorship when decentralized workplace democracy is literally their most prominent policy plank.
 
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Non-Canon: Territory of the former New York State
  • Apocrypha
    • Omake: Territory of the former New York State.

    TOP SECRET FOR THE EYES IF DIRECTOR CMC REGIONAL COMMAND OR HIGHER AUTHORITY ONLY.


    Attention: situation unstable outside of major inter-hub landroutes.

    Warning: Large scale subversive sub-populations reside within the catskills region.

    Attention: Isolated resorts in the Adirondack Mountains have reported Gunfire in nearby mountain valleys.

    ATTENTION: CMC AFFILIATED BETS HILL MILITIA HAS BEEN LIQUIDATED BY UNKNOWN PARTIES

    WARNING: CMC REPRISAL SQUADS IN THE DELHI, ONEONTA, WALTON AREA HAVE BEEN LIQUIDATED FACT FINDING UNDERWAY.

    ATTENTION: SITUATION IN THE FOOTHILLS AND ADIRONDACK REGIONS CURRENTLY ACTIVELY HOSTILE.

    WARNING: SHIFT IN REGIONAL CLAN POLITICS CONFIRMED. CONFIRMED PRESENCE, FLAG OF CORRUPT UNITED STATES. CONFIRMED PRESENCE, WIRELESS INTERNET ROUTER AND SATELLITE DISH. CONFIRMED PRESENCE, SUBVERSIVE DIGITAL MEDIA.

    FIG- 1. 1x AMERICAN FLAG.
    FIG- 2. 3x COMPUTER.
    FIG- 3. 45x USB "THUMBDRIVES" CONTAINING 'CHICAGO CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION'

    It is the belief of this analyst that a party or parties unknown have begun to subvert and unify the disparate family groups of the Former New York 'upstate'. Reffered here as all areas north of Poughkeepsie.

    Previous methods of division are proving less effective by the year.

    Significant movement of undesirable populations out of core Victorian territories into and presumably through this region have been identified.

    Major Assets and recruitment pools in the region have been attacked. Several have been liquidated.
    Addendum: with the elimination of The Bets Hill Militia willing eyes in the Towns of Oneonta and Delhi, both of which are confirmed hubs of subversive activities, a major arterial breach of the former I-88 is possible in the next 4 to 17 years.


    Edit: This is born out of my knowlege of the hills in the otsego chenengo and delaware county areas in the foothills region of New York. If central authority ever truly breaks down this place and a bunch of other area in central new york and the capital regions will essentially become an ungovernable mass of feuding family's. Given a few decades for marriages to occur in the setting...
    Its essentially the Scottish highlands before true unification.
     
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  • Apocrypha
    • KnightDisciple said:
    ....No? There's been like 3-5 people saying that, while others have been questioning it.

    It's not even a freaking vote item yet! I am personally unconvinced about the need for a mandatory "review" of the basic foundation and laws of our society every 30 freaking years.
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    Its what people support as a vote item
     
    Alright, the vote is now open!

    In addition to the votes in the update itself -- and do remember the clarification post in the threadmark prior to this one -- we have a new addition!
    KnightDisciple said:
    But it's not a unanimous, settled matter! We have people in here who are all "DEMOCRACY DEMOCRACY" and then, with no vote, are dictating to the QM what "everyone" "agrees" should happen.

    Why aren't we requesting this be a distinct and separate vote item?
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    Funny you should mention that.

    [ ][REVIEW] The new Constitution should be put to review and possible revision every thirty years.
    [ ][REVIEW] The new Constitution will serve just fine with a standardized system for proposing amendments.

    New task, everybody!

    Again, you needn't vote for every task, so if you don't give a damn about the above, feel free to skip it.

    Go nuts, folks!
     
    [x][IDEALS] Socialist: Having come to refer to a specific political movement rather than an entire branch of ideology, modern socialism is focused on giving the state the power to care for allcitizens, and claims that the modern Social Democrat platform does not go far enough in pursuit of this. It also calls for a massive investment into healthcare in order to revitalize the field and make sure that there are enough medical professionals to go around (long-term, they want free healthcare, but there needs to be enough of it first). They also grant unions extensive privileges over private employers. They are fervently in favor of democratized workplaces, and openly campaign in favor of granting them special concessions.
    [x][IDEALS] Communist: The old revolutionary ideology has elected to push for their aims in the democratic process. Their modern platform, in this setting, is centered around the absolute implementation of workplace democracy in addition to the same welfare and legal measures proposed by other movements. The aims of the American Communists in the present day are to break the concept of private ownership of businesses, which places them in stark opposition to Capitalist and Social Democrat thought of this era. This is a part of a larger drive towards a transition to a fully Communist society, but the Communists have quite enough to be focused on at the moment and are leaving that aside.

    [x][CRUSH] None. This is a democracy. If your ideology cannot make its case to the people in practice, it deserves to fail.

    [x][POWER] You are a centralized federal state along the lines of the later United States.

    [x][TEXT] The Constitution was utterly bereft of any kind of legal, political, or ethical merit and shall be cast into the trash heap of history where it belongs. We shall start anew from a blank slate.
    [x][REVIEW] The new Constitution should be put to review and possible revision every thirty years.
     
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    [X][IDEALS] Social Democrat: Centered around the idea that it is the state's responsibility to ensure a bare-minimum standard of living, the Social Democrats add to the New Capitalist agenda with a push for a government guarantee of adequate housing, food, and water to all citizens -- itself a fairly titanic task. It remains rooted in the fundamental ideal of private enterprise. The Social Democrats have some interest in the potential of democratized workplaces and are willing to support them in an experimental measure.
    [X][IDEALS] Socialist: Having come to refer to a specific political movement rather than an entire branch of ideology, modern socialism is focused on giving the state the power to care for all citizens, and claims that the modern Social Democrat platform does not go far enough in pursuit of this. It also calls for a massive investment into healthcare in order to revitalize the field and make sure that there are enough medical professionals to go around (long-term, they want free healthcare, but there needs to be enough of it first). They also grant unions extensive privileges over private employers. They are fervently in favor of democratized workplaces, and openly campaign in favor of granting them special concessions.

    [X][CRUSH] Some of the central tenets of the founding government's ideology are written into foundational law, making it difficult for even violently opposed successor governments to fully roll them back without immense popular support.

    [X][POWER] You are a devolved unitary state with subordinate governments formed or dissolved by central governmental decrees according to need

    [X][TEXT] The Constitution serves as a broad guide for the structure of this document, and many legal concepts integral to it carry through, but it is rewritten from the ground up to serve its new situation rather than simply amending it until it fits.
    [X][TEXT] The Constitution was utterly bereft of any kind of legal, political, or ethical merit and shall be cast into the trash heap of history where it belongs. We shall start anew from a blank slate.

    @PoptartProdigy : Can we put a write-in for the review? Like instead of 30 years, go for 50 years? I feel like 30 years isn't long enough to justify political system updating, but twice per century would be.

    Tentative:
    [X][REVIEW] The new Constitution should be put to review and possible revision every 50 years.
     
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    [][IDEALS] Social Democrat: Centered around the idea that it is the state's responsibility to ensure a bare-minimum standard of living, the Social Democrats add to the New Capitalist agenda with a push for a government guarantee of adequate housing, food, and water to all citizens -- itself a fairly titanic task. It remains rooted in the fundamental ideal of private enterprise. The Social Democrats have some interest in the potential of democratized workplaces and are willing to support them in an experimental measure.
    [X][IDEALS] Socialist: Having come to refer to a specific political movement rather than an entire branch of ideology, modern socialism is focused on giving the state the power to care for all citizens, and claims that the modern Social Democrat platform does not go far enough in pursuit of this. It also calls for a massive investment into healthcare in order to revitalize the field and make sure that there are enough medical professionals to go around (long-term, they want free healthcare, but there needs to be enough of it first). They also grant unions extensive privileges over private employers. They are fervently in favor of democratized workplaces, and openly campaign in favor of granting them special concessions.
    [X][IDEALS] Communist: The old revolutionary ideology has elected to push for their aims in the democratic process. Their modern platform, in this setting, is centered around the absolute implementation of workplace democracy in addition to the same welfare and legal measures proposed by other movements. The aims of the American Communists in the present day are to break the concept of private ownership of businesses, which places them in stark opposition to Capitalist and Social Democrat thought of this era. This is a part of a larger drive towards a transition to a fully Communist society, but the Communists have quite enough to be focused on at the moment and are leaving that aside.

    [][CRUSH] None. This is a democracy. If your ideology cannot make its case to the people in practice, it deserves to fail.
    [X][CRUSH] Some of the central tenets of the founding government's ideology are written into foundational law, making it difficult for even violently opposed successor governments to fully roll them back without immense popular support.

    [X][POWER] You are a devolved unitary state with subordinate governments formed or dissolved by central governmental decrees according to need
    [X][POWER] You are a centralized federal state along the lines of the later United States.

    [X][TEXT] The Constitution serves as a broad guide for the structure of this document, and many legal concepts integral to it carry through, but it is rewritten from the ground up to serve its new situation rather than simply amending it until it fits.
    [][TEXT] The Constitution was utterly bereft of any kind of legal, political, or ethical merit and shall be cast into the trash heap of history where it belongs. We shall start anew from a blank slate.

    [][REVIEW] The new Constitution should be put to review and possible revision every thirty years.
    [][REVIEW] The new Constitution will serve just fine with a standardized system for proposing amendments.
     
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    [x][IDEALS] Socialist: Having come to refer to a specific political movement rather than an entire branch of ideology, modern socialism is focused on giving the state the power to care for allcitizens, and claims that the modern Social Democrat platform does not go far enough in pursuit of this. It also calls for a massive investment into healthcare in order to revitalize the field and make sure that there are enough medical professionals to go around (long-term, they want free healthcare, but there needs to be enough of it first). They also grant unions extensive privileges over private employers. They are fervently in favor of democratized workplaces, and openly campaign in favor of granting them special concessions.
    [x][IDEALS] Communist: The old revolutionary ideology has elected to push for their aims in the democratic process. Their modern platform, in this setting, is centered around the absolute implementation of workplace democracy in addition to the same welfare and legal measures proposed by other movements. The aims of the American Communists in the present day are to break the concept of private ownership of businesses, which places them in stark opposition to Capitalist and Social Democrat thought of this era. This is a part of a larger drive towards a transition to a fully Communist society, but the Communists have quite enough to be focused on at the moment and are leaving that aside.

    [x][CRUSH] None. This is a democracy. If your ideology cannot make its case to the people in practice, it deserves to fail.

    [x][POWER] You are a centralized federal state along the lines of the later United States.
    [X][POWER] You are a decentralized federal state somewhat akin to the early United States

    [x][TEXT] The Constitution was utterly bereft of any kind of legal, political, or ethical merit and shall be cast into the trash heap of history where it belongs. We shall start anew from a blank slate.
    [x][REVIEW] The new Constitution should be put to review and possible revision every thirty years.
    Adhoc vote count started by Flectarn on Mar 15, 2019 at 12:10 PM, finished with 339 posts and 11 votes.
    • [X][IDEALS] Socialist: Having come to refer to a specific political movement rather than an entire branch of ideology, modern socialism is focused on giving the state the power to care for all citizens, and claims that the modern Social Democrat platform does not go far enough in pursuit of this. It also calls for a massive investment into healthcare in order to revitalize the field and make sure that there are enough medical professionals to go around (long-term, they want free healthcare, but there needs to be enough of it first). They also grant unions extensive privileges over private employers. They are fervently in favor of democratized workplaces, and openly campaign in favor of granting them special concessions.
      [x][CRUSH] Some of the central tenets of the founding government's ideology are written into foundational law, making it difficult for even violently opposed successor governments to fully roll them back without immense popular support.
      [x][POWER] You are a centralized federal state along the lines of the later United States.
      [x][TEXT] The Constitution serves as a broad guide for the structure of this document, and many legal concepts integral to it carry through, but it is rewritten from the ground up to serve its new situation rather than simply amending it until it fits.
      [x][REVIEW] The new Constitution should be put to review and possible revision every thirty years.
      [x][IDEALS] Social Democrat
      [x][IDEALS] Communist: The old revolutionary ideology has elected to push for their aims in the democratic process. Their modern platform, in this setting, is centered around the absolute implementation of workplace democracy in addition to the same welfare and legal measures proposed by other movements. The aims of the American Communists in the present day are to break the concept of private ownership of businesses, which places them in stark opposition to Capitalist and Social Democrat thought of this era. This is a part of a larger drive towards a transition to a fully Communist society, but the Communists have quite enough to be focused on at the moment and are leaving that aside.
      [X][IDEALS] Social Democrat: Centered around the idea that it is the state's responsibility to ensure a bare-minimum standard of living, the Social Democrats add to the New Capitalist agenda with a push for a government guarantee of adequate housing, food, and water to all citizens -- itself a fairly titanic task. It remains rooted in the fundamental ideal of private enterprise. The Social Democrats have some interest in the potential of democratized workplaces and are willing to support them in an experimental measure.
      [X][IDEALS] New Capitalist: Aims to restore the old system with badly-needed revisions to address some of the obvious flaws. Among other things, it mandates a living minimum wage tied to government-collected measures, writes into foundational law the de-personhood of anybody who is not, in fact, an actual person, and institutes broad protections for employees against their employers (protected right to unionize, protections for whistleblowers, pension laws for companies, etc.). The New Capitalists do not give a single shit about democratized workplaces, positively or negatively, as long as they pay their taxes.
      [X][IDEALS] Socialist
      [x][CRUSH] None. This is a democracy. If your ideology cannot make its case to the people in practice, it deserves to fail.
      [X][CRUSH] None
      [X][CRUSH] Some
      [X][POWER] You are a devolved unitary state with subordinate governments formed or dissolved by central governmental decrees according to need.
      [x][TEXT] The Constitution was utterly bereft of any kind of legal, political, or ethical merit and shall be cast into the trash heap of history where it belongs. We shall start anew from a blank slate.
      [X][TEXT] The old Constitution had its flaws, but it was a document of many strengths as well. It lasted two and a half centuries. We shall honor that and preserve the original. Our changes will be amendments, as intended, with our population approving them as specified in the text.
      [X][REVIEW] The new Constitution will serve just fine with a standardized system for proposing amendments.
    Click to expand...

    Adhoc vote count started by Flectarn on Mar 15, 2019 at 4:32 PM, finished with 178 posts and 78 votes.
    Click to expand...
     
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    [X][IDEALS] New Capitalist: Aims to restore the old system with badly-needed revisions to address some of the obvious flaws. Among other things, it mandates a living minimum wage tied to government-collected measures, writes into foundational law the de-personhood of anybody who is not, in fact, an actual person, and institutes broad protections for employees against their employers (protected right to unionize, protections for whistleblowers, pension laws for companies, etc.). The New Capitalists do not give a single shit about democratized workplaces, positively or negatively, as long as they pay their taxes.
    • Legitimacy++
    • Pisses off Socialists and Communists.
    • Familiarity will be reassuring to old American allies. Foreign corporations will like the relatively free hand compared to trends elsewhere in the world and will be eager to do business if you can gain access to foreign markets. The flip side is that your markets are extremely vulnerable to foreign dominance at game start. You will need to approach foreign markets with extreme caution, and likely after time to prepare.
    • Democratized workplaces are legal but gain no special advantages.
    [X][CRUSH] None. This is a democracy. If your ideology cannot make its case to the people in practice, it deserves to fail.
    • Legitimacy++
    • Democratic
    • Relationship with minority parties not necessarily hostile
    • You lose, you lose
    • Demonstrates and encourages faith in the democratic process
    [X][POWER] You are a centralized federal state along the lines of the later United States.
    • Guarantees permanent local governance while maintaining a primary central government, but that government will have less ability to direct resources
    • Very traditional and also quite the attractive deal to subordinates
    [X][TEXT] The old Constitution had its flaws, but it was a document of many strengths as well. It lasted two and a half centuries. We shall honor that and preserve the original. Our changes will be amendments, as intended, with our population approving them as specified in the text.
    • Legitimacy++
    • Misses chances for greater reform
    • Radical reformists are angered by missed opportunities, but this is a potent call back to the old days
    [X][REVIEW] The new Constitution will serve just fine with a standardized system for proposing amendments.
     
    [X][IDEALS] Social Democrat
    [X][IDEALS] Socialist

    [X][CRUSH] None
    [X][CRUSH] Some

    [X][POWER] You are a devolved unitary state with subordinate governments formed or dissolved by central governmental decrees according to need
    [X][POWER] You are a centralized federal state along the lines of the later United States.

    [X][TEXT] The Constitution serves as a broad guide for the structure of this document, and many legal concepts integral to it carry through, but it is rewritten from the ground up to serve its new situation rather than simply amending it until it fits.
    [X][TEXT] The Constitution was utterly bereft of any kind of legal, political, or ethical merit and shall be cast into the trash heap of history where it belongs. We shall start anew from a blank slate.[/QUOTE]
     
    [x][IDEALS] Socialist: Having come to refer to a specific political movement rather than an entire branch of ideology, modern socialism is focused on giving the state the power to care for allcitizens, and claims that the modern Social Democrat platform does not go far enough in pursuit of this. It also calls for a massive investment into healthcare in order to revitalize the field and make sure that there are enough medical professionals to go around (long-term, they want free healthcare, but there needs to be enough of it first). They also grant unions extensive privileges over private employers. They are fervently in favor of democratized workplaces, and openly campaign in favor of granting them special concessions.
    [x][IDEALS] Communist: The old revolutionary ideology has elected to push for their aims in the democratic process. Their modern platform, in this setting, is centered around the absolute implementation of workplace democracy in addition to the same welfare and legal measures proposed by other movements. The aims of the American Communists in the present day are to break the concept of private ownership of businesses, which places them in stark opposition to Capitalist and Social Democrat thought of this era. This is a part of a larger drive towards a transition to a fully Communist society, but the Communists have quite enough to be focused on at the moment and are leaving that aside.

    [x][CRUSH] None. This is a democracy. If your ideology cannot make its case to the people in practice, it deserves to fail.

    [x][POWER] You are a centralized federal state along the lines of the later United States.

    [x][TEXT] The Constitution was utterly bereft of any kind of legal, political, or ethical merit and shall be cast into the trash heap of history where it belongs. We shall start anew from a blank slate.
    [x][REVIEW] The new Constitution should be put to review and possible revision every thirty years.
     
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