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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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And if they are provoked into outright war to prove/protect their authority then their replacement, if not removal, probably does make the world a better place.

Viserys Godsdamned Targaryen of all people knows that sometimes the current system is too corrupt to let it continue standing.
 
Artemis1992 said:
?

I didn't really see that outcome as an option. The White Council have enough work on their hands without trying to hunt a dragon that's not activly attacking them.
And whatever Viserys does, Harry will keep helping people when he can.

So I don't really see this making the world any worse unless Viserys really goes out of his way to act against the council directly.
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Harry Dresden is a warden and a rather infamous one, he is under the authority of the Council. If they allow him to go rogue on the job it would be a massive hit to their authority one that could lead to further defections among the younger wardens who look up to him. Letting the dragon go is one thing, doing the same for Dresden is quite another.
 
Artemis1992 said:
?

I didn't really see that outcome as an option. The White Council have enough work on their hands without trying to hunt a dragon that's not activly attacking them.
And whatever Viserys does, Harry will keep helping people when he can.

So I don't really see this making the world any worse unless Viserys really goes out of his way to act against the council directly.
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You're asking Harry Dresden to Break His Word when he writes his report. In a much, much bigger way than he's ever done. The fact that the shadow of a Fallen Angel with the title of 'the Seductress' failed to do this - and Angels are far, far more powerful in DF than D&D - should put in context how hard this will be.
 
Snowfire said:
To clarify a bit though, a few points. First, it needs be said that action on the scale Kathy has done so - note, 37 times for the first attack - means the world should probably be a lot more screwed up than it is. Time travel has Consequences, capital letter intended. And yet...
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Well, first issue with the Laws was that you need to believe you have a right to do that stuff, right?

That can certainly be an issue with murder and mindfuck, but nobody would get the idea that believing you have the right to alter reality to defend yourself and your family is wrong.
 
Deliste said:
And if they are provoked into outright war to prove/protect their authority then their replacement, if not removal, probably does make the world a better place.

Viserys Godsdamned Targaryen of all people knows that sometimes the current system is too corrupt to let it continue standing.
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And if the current corrupt system is a vital piece of what's keeping the world standing...well then that's quite the problem, isn't it. Viserys is very much not capable of conjuring an organisation sufficient to replace the Council out of thin air.
 
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Snowfire said:
Alas that everyone so far appears to be seeing Kathy as loot instead of a person. And yes, that is relevant.
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I think it is more the case that everyone expects the White Council to be unreasonable about this so her continued existence is very likely reliant on protection by a greater power.

Snowfire said:
You're asking Harry Dresden to Break His Word when he writes his report. In a much, much bigger way than he's ever done. The fact that the shadow of a Fallen Angel with the title of 'the Seductress' failed to do this - and Angels are far, far more powerful in DF than D&D - should put in context how hard this will be.
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The circumstance modifiers are opposite and massive though, Lasciel got a -50 for being one of the Fallen in the first place whereas this hits every emotional button he has.
 
Artemis1992 said:
Well, first issue with the Laws was that you need to believe you have a right to do that stuff, right?

That can certainly be an issue with murder and mindfuck, but nobody would get the idea that believing you have the right to alter reality to defend yourself and your family is wrong.
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That's where it begins. Where it ends is...another matter.
 
Snowfire said:
You're asking Harry Dresden to Break His Word when he writes his report. In a much, much bigger way than he's ever done. The fact that the shadow of a Fallen Angel with the title of 'the Seductress' failed to do this - and Angels are far, far more powerful in DF than D&D - should put in context how hard this will be.
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No.

I'm asking him to write the utterly correct report that that girl is under the protection of Viserys Targaryen and he saw no chance to harm her without causing much greater harm to the council.
And maybe add that he wouldn't have done it anyway because fuck killing innocents.

I would never ask him to lie in a report. Only to reject rules he has little reason for following.
DragonParadox said:
Harry Dresden is a warden and a rather infamous one, he is under the authority of the Council. If they allow him to go rogue on the job it would be a massive hit to their authority one that could lead to further defections among the younger wardens who look up to him. Letting the dragon go is one thing, doing the same for Dresden is quite another.
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True I guess, but that is a slow erosion of power, so the world is not suddenly left with a broken council and no way to fix the situation.
Worst case Dresden and Viserys have to organise the defectors to keep some semblance of order going.
 
Artemis1992 said:
True I guess, but that is a slow erosion of power, so the world is not suddenly left with a broken council and no way to fix the situation.
Worst case Dresden and Viserys have to organise the defectors to keep some semblance of order going.
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It still weakens the council to the point where who knows how many factions will try to rip them apart in a massive feeding frenzy for all those delicious souls/magic/knowledge. They are already teetering on the brink and so would have every reason to try to project strength.
 
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I think the problem here lies where Snowfire eventually sees an end-point for a plot, but that does not account for thread impetus and how we often Get What We Want, and the dividing line on "compromise" is often "if we aren't in a position of strength, we flip over the board and change the playing field entirely".

For example, having to argue down execution to a more lenient punishment where we are assured that Kathy's health, happiness and to a lesser extent agency is somewhat intact would be acceptable.

Having to "do her a mercy" with no significant effort put forth to try to avoid a unilateral execution for trying to survive in spite of the fact that by all rights they should be dead... well.

Again, Snowfire probably has a plan. It may or may not be a plan we would come up with.

But I am betting it follows the general vein of "Viserys Finds A Way".
 
DragonParadox said:
It still weakens the council to the point where who knows how many factions will try to rip them part in a massive feeding frenzy for all those delicious souls/magic/knowledge. They are already tittering on the brink and so would have every reason to try to project strength.
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The Paranet is already a good start for keeping the things on the ground in check, one that V&H barely have to take over since they were working with them for the entire time.
Ensuring a quality education for Wizards is propably something Dresden has enough experience in.

What are the other duties beyond that?
 
Artemis1992 said:
The Paranet is already a good start for keeping the things on the ground in check, one that V&H barely have to take over since they were working with them for the entire time.
Ensuring a quality education for Wizards is propably something Dresden has enough experience in.

What are the other duties beyond that?
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I think you are severely overestimating both Paranet's ability to handle and train major talents and Dresden's ability to to cover the gaps in a global organization. If the White Council goes down in fire and smoke it does not just go down in Chicago or even in the US but everywhere.
 
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The White Council does not fight for The Little Guy, the people on the street, it does not save someone when it matters to them.

But it saves everybody and it does that often.

That's the difference basically, where your life, prosperity, peace and happiness is not guaranteed, the people who have the power and influence to effect any of those things are often cold, remote or at the very least disaffected and cynically inclined to stick to tradition for fear of taking on more of a burden than they already have.

To Viserys, all of that is just rot that needs to eventually be cleaned out.

To the White Council, the above ultimatum rings of madness.

Viserys treads that line between genius and madness, as has often been pointed out, and really we would be struggling similarly to how Viserys and Harry are right now if the quest for some reason even briefly changed Metaphysics and how we had to deal with moral quandaries, which are difficult enough as is to handle in D&D.
 
DragonParadox said:
I think you are severely overestimating booth Paranet's ability to handle and train major talents and Dresden's ability to to cover the gaps in a global organization. If the White Council goes down in fire and smoke it does not just go down in Chicago or even in the US but everywhere.
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I was mostly thinking that the same Wizards who have been training their apprentices as they always have would continue to do so, with Harry and what like-minded allies he can gather as help if problems come up and the paranet serving as local eyes to detect problems early on.

The White Council didn't seem very intrusive to the average Wizard's life, so most things should keep going as they were if the Organisation fails.
 
Artemis1992 said:
I was mostly thinking that the same Wizards who have been training their apprentices as they always have would continue to do so, with Harry and what like-minded allies he can gather as help if problems come up and the paranet serving as local eyes to detect problems early on.

The White Council didn't seem very intrusive to the average Wizard's life, so most things should keep going as they were if the Organisation fails.
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Without the knowledge that the White Council is policing them many of those wizards will turn to lawbreaking to protect themselves, many more will seek protection in unsavory places. Even the light system of oversight you have planed takes time to implement world-wide not to mention how difficult it would be to do as the Council goes down in scores of interconnected conflicts.
 
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That doesn't account for the things that the White Council does to keep a lid on big threats which only they are interested in and organized enough to confront, early enough to make a difference.

The organizational and intelligence deficiency for the supposed New Paranet (or Black Council) to cover would require literal Outside Context Solutions. I mean, sure, Viserys and Co. coming in and just handing the easiest solutions to some of those problems (tons of useful magic items, magic theory, Praetorians/Constructs/Et. Al) would be one thing, but UH. I am quite sure WG would not be having any of that nonsense. And if not WG then I am pretty sure Mab or any of the dozen other local Cthullus would be feeling x10 twitchier about a escalating society of magicians constantly defying local metaphysics by leaning on OCPs to avoid Law breaking.

The above Fiat "LOLNO" makes me mad and I am glad we aren't actually in DF because I would get sick of that shit like I would get sick of dealing with the Feywild.

I am largely assured that Viserys would react the same way. As much as helping would be nice, just leaving Harry with four or five thousand fewer headaches and maybe a big red "CALL THE DRAGON" button at the end is what I imagine the thread doing if we were talking about what to do.

Because seriously fuck the nonsense going on there, my next plan would be offering Harry, his friends and family a one-way expressed ticket to somewhere with fewer asshole physical gods (like a universe where we either spanked or 86'd their presence on the Material realm).

No promises on "fewer asshole deities" though.

We uh... have a surfeit of those.

Edit: The mental imagery of Viserys calling WG a dickhead after reading a copy of the bible amuses me immensely though.
 
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Crake said:
And if not WG then I am pretty sure Mab or any of the dozen other local Cthullus would be feeling x10 twitchier about a escalating society of magicians constantly defying local metaphysics by leaning on OCPs to avoid Law breaking.
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Well, killing the local powerholders is usually step one in any plan to truly alter the status quo.
 
I just had this idea,
Viseries walks outside the house.
Ten minutes later the girl comes out having killed harry.
Viseries accepts it because she was just protecting herselves.
Both walk away and continue to do their thing.
 
Crake said:
The mental imagery of Viserys calling WG a dickhead after reading a copy of the bible amuses me immensely though.
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Something to keep in mind is that The Bible in the DF universe is actually at least a little different than any of the IRL editions. We don't have a lot of details on how much, but there are a couple very important story moments where in universe 'bible quotes' are used that absolutely are not direct quotes from anything in our versions.
The interesting question becomes what else is different.

Also, I'd just like to say that I'm really happy so much discussion is happening about this arc. @Snowfire has been hashing this bit out for a bit now and I'm really excited to see what the reactions are. If I can make one request? Extend a little trust. ;)
 
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Acolyte said:
I just had this idea,
Viseries walks outside the house.
Ten minutes later the girl comes out having killed harry.
Viseries accepts it because she was just protecting herselves.
Both walk away and continue to do their thing.
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Harry is hard to kill.

Not just practically, but he also has the narrative protection of being the MC (though not this story's MC).
 
Honestly, I think she might on some level want to die at this point. Experiencing her family's death 37 times? Fighting the fomor however many times as it took her to win all the other times they attacked? She might just want to lay down her burden.
 
Sqweaktoy said:
Something to keep in mind is that The Bible in the DF universe is actually at least a little different than any of the IRL editions. We don't have a lot of details on how much, but there are a couple very important story moments where in universe 'bible quotes' are used that absolutely are not direct quotes from anything in our versions.
The interesting question becomes what else is different.

Also, I'd just like to say that I'm really happy so much discussion is happening about this arc. @Snowfire has been hashing this bit out for a bit now and I'm really excited to see what the reactions are. If I can make one request? Extend a little trust. ;)
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Honestly this makes more sense. Seeing as how if WG is an active and ever-present force upon the world, things like texts meant to guide organized religion which would alter the course of worship for billions over the course of history, means that a little nudge here and there to keep things consistent with the overall message rather than just what the conventions of the time thought would be good to throw in there, or might have gotten lost in translation.

spiritualatheist said:
Honestly, I think she might on some level want to die at this point. Experiencing her family's death 37 times? Fighting the fomor however many times as it took her to win all the other times they attacked? She might just want to lay down her burden.
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That's different but unlikely. I do see a situation where we coldly shrug off assisted suicide though. Viserys wouldn't be anyone's "Cop" so to speak, but neither will he do more than try to convince someone it is madness to assume the burden of guilt is on them wherein they live in a world where massive use of chronomancy is literally their only means of survival against a threat that others have a responsibility (and the ability) to contest but either chose not to (loathsome) or could not (negligent, the decisions leading up to this state of affairs being less obviously corrupt but still part of the same steady societal decay).

Other than calmly laying out all the reasons why they're wrong, no one can accuse us, and by extension Viserys of trying to fight a hopeless crusade to save someone who for all intents and purposes doesn't seem to want to even live despite an odd conflux of decisions and circumstances that seem to imply they care very much about not dying to Fomor.

And it would take away a lot of narrative tension if Viserys doesn't have to navigate through some delicate decision points.
 
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Crake said:
Honestly this makes more sense. Seeing as how if WG is an active and ever-present force upon the world, things like texts meant to guide organized religion which would alter the course of worship for billions of the course of history, means that a little nudge here and there to keep things consistent with the overall messgae rather than just what the conventions of the time thought would be good to throw in there, or might have gotten lost in translation.
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Well, we know that there's been mistranslation in the Bible at least once, it's stated outright in White Night that 'Suffer not the witch to live' was improperly translated to produce that quote. So there's definitely some points of loss involved.

spiritualatheist said:
Honestly, I think she might on some level want to die at this point. Experiencing her family's death 37 times? Fighting the fomor however many times as it took her to win all the other times they attacked? She might just want to lay down her burden.
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Note the specific wording of the reason behind why she's glad to see two Wardens.
 
She's also young, burdened beyond her years is something Viserys can very much empathise with for a variety of reasons. Allowing her to believe that suicide or near enough is her only way out of that burden would be something he could not live with.

It would be downright offensive to his own philosophy if nothing else.
 
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