Food that hunts. Remember that when you come for us, in all your manifold horrors. You are hunters, but so too are we. And we shall see who claims the bounty of the hunt at the end.
 
When you stare at the mortals, the mortals stare into you...




And greed is deeper than hunger. Drives us further. Makes us meaner.
Fear us.
 
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And I for one happily embrace the OP. We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this.

EDIT: Also, IIRC, that innate casting referred to the added CL you thought he would have gotten upon turning into a Red Dragon. You thought that his casting as a human would have been added to whatever innate casting a Red Dragon gets, which was never the case. There was never any restriction placed on being able to get cleric spells.
That was one of my points, yes. Caster levels are additive, and they were definitely included in the original version of the ability.

But I did also mention the ability to learn divine spells.

What? Viserys would only be able to cast 7th level spells, a druid, 8th. That alone puts it ahead. As said, he doesn't get the red racial casting, because it isn't a feature of his Dragon HD.

...

He gets the physical ability score adjustments, frightful presence, breath weapon, size, NA and natural weapons of the appropriate form when shaped, besides anything else he has in human form.

His human form benefits from the base HD and the mental boosts.
While TotallyNotEvil didn't specifically mention the red dragon's ability to cast divine spells as arcane magic, he certainly implied that Viserys won't get that.

Plus the edited version of the transformation says "This excludes innate casting abilities."
 
That was one of my points, yes. Caster levels are additive, and they were definitely included in the original version of the ability.

Nobody else interpreted the class that way, which was why there was no issue with us making it more explicit. Nobody ever expected to get additive class levels.
While TotallyNotEvil didn't specifically mention the red dragon's ability to cast divine spells as arcane magic, he certainly implied that Viserys won't get that.

Plus the edited version of the transformation says "This excludes innate casting abilities."
Innate casting abilities as in specifically the sorcerer casting that Red Dragons get as they age. That was the only thing that was explicitly cut out. The fact that we can learn cleric spells was never once banned.

I'm definitely not in support of banning cleric spells for Viserys, much less doing so retroactively months after we'd had and used Heal.
 
@Duesal that's how I've always intrepreted it too. And it's not like there isn't an opportunity cost to taking a Divine instead of an Arcane spell. Maybe it's cause I'm playing in Pathfinder, but as an Oracle player there's a lot of times when I look at the Arcane spell list in envy.
 
Interlude CCCXXXV: The Devil in the Details
The Devil in the Details

Seventh Day of the Seventh Month 293 AC

There was always something surprising to get up in the morning for,
that Daeon Deft Fingers was certain of. In just the last couple of years he had gone from a thief-master's bookkeeper, who knew neither hoof nor ham of sorcery, to a mage serving under the golden banners of Mantarys. He believed in the light that Lord Yrael offered, though unlike most of his fellows he knew the Bright Ones could err, and his tasks were sometimes less than... honorable and straightforward. So it had been with no small measure of bemusement that Daeon had taken the mission to deliver a book to Sorcerer's Deep in the west. It was a fine thing to be sure, and rarer by far than the gold leaf upon its cover, insights of the very heavens within its covers, but surely there must have been someone better suited to hand it over.

Spheres in Harmony

Description: Bound in gold leaf set in artful patterns that sooth the weary mind, this book was written in no mortal tongue but that of imperishable angels. For all that a gentle enchantment lies upon its covers that even one who knows not that tongue, or indeed cannot read at all, can read its contents.

Content: +4 to all Knowledge checks related to the Upper Planes.

Thankfully, you could hardly miss the library. Truth be told you could hardly miss anything in Sorcerer's Deep, for it had a name to every street and a number to every house. This was a young city and one built from the ground up by the dragon lord of the west, but it was certainly no less strange and fanciful for it. In fact this may have been the first time when rumors had not done justice to the strangeness in the air. Men of sticks and leaves swept the streets and helped unclog the drainage ditches, little monkey men in wide feathered hats chatted amiably with hulking bullmen whom Mantarys only remembered as horrors begotten of demons, yet here they were restored to sense and sanity. Daeon itched to ask a great many questions, but his task was clear, and for all many called him sly he was not one to put his own interests before his lord's command.

Upon entering the library he was impressed by the tall shelves that filled even the atrium, books from all around the known world and people just as varied. He counted half-a-dozen tongues and more in the first few moments, not just the daughter tongues of Valyria or the harsh Andal language, but even the odd slow rising quick falling speech of Naath. He had heard they were taking to the sea these days, but to have come so far...

"Daeon!" a familiar voice, raspy from sea air and spirits called. "Good to see you've finally made it to the finest trove of lore in all the world..."

"Myrch," the man of Mantarys turned to look towards the weather-beaten face of the man who was in certain select circles very quietly called 'the dragon wrangler of Tolos' for his ability to get the new lord of Tolos to actually follow along with suggestions unlike other less skillful and less bold members of the Tolosi aristocracy. "What are you doing here?"

"Seeing about betting coin and trainers for the new Silver Companies. Well, mostly when I'm not gawking at the books at least. Did you know Lord Relath wrote one himself?" Noticing the book in Daeon's hand he added: "I see you brought something special, too. Come on, that will get you a chance to look through the restricted stacks..."

"I didn't write it." Daeon pointed out.

"Doesn't matter," the other man waved away the concern. "The rules say if you're trustworthy and bring valuable lore you can view it. You're both."

The two easterners moved moved quickly through the crowded halls, getting passage from a strange lotus spirit that seemed faintly amused at something about them.

"See here, this is the book lord Relath wrote, and this here was laid down by another dragon whose name sounds kind of like him, though I do not think it would be entirely safe to mention that fact if you know what I mean, eh?"

Draconis Compendium

Description:
Though written by entirely independent authors, dragons of sea and flame respectively, this compilation of draconic thought is treated as a unified whole by the scholars of Sorcerer's Deep, particularly given the systematization of lesser lore around it. It pertains to history so ancient that none save the oldest of spirits or the dragons themselves can remember it.

Content: Any reader not already drawing wisdom and lore from the Dragon Dreams who spends a month studying this compilation may make a DC 20 Wisdom Check which if successful offers unique insight into the mind, mannerisms, and history of dragons, allowing them to choose one of the following benefits.
  1. Warrior's Insight: +2 to Attack and Damage against creatures of the Dragon type
  2. Way of Elder Magic: +1 Competence Bonus to spell DCs for one school of magic
  3. Lore of Wyrms: Gains the ability to re-roll one failed Knowledge check/week
Note: A character who has gained one of the tome's boons may not gain another upon re-reading, unless they have suffered some dramatic shift in perspective.

Daeon swore softly to himself. "I don't think these are the sort of books us mere mortals are supposed to be reading, Myrch..."

A shadow passed unbidden before the mage lantern.. dark wings. Swallowing the traveler looked up to see... a devil. He had never seen a Fury in the flesh before, but there was no mistaking the sharp-edged beauty, the cruel smile that reflected darkest coldest vengeance. "I would say you are right, little mortal," the baatezu said with smooth malice. After a long tense moment passed she spoke again: "Alas I am but the custodian of this hall of lore, and my lord claims mortals are worthy of such precious lore, that you can be great and wise if you are but given the chance." She smiled then, and there might have been some shadow of wistfulness behind it. "Prove me wrong if you can."

With that she vanished in a whiff of brimstone, leaving behind a dark book marked: "In Memory of Death."

In Memory of Death

Description: Written as a journal of sorts of the transition between unlife and true life, filled with elements of philosophical contemplation, this treatise could be of great help to the budding necromancer and hunter of the unliving in equal measure, but the greatest use is perhaps to be found for one who is both.

Content: After two weeks of study a reader who succeeds on a DC 25 Knowledge (Religion) check gains +4 Competence Bonus to saves against the supernatural abilities of vampires and +1 to AC against them. One who succeeds on a DC 25 Knowledge (Arcana) check gains the ability to count as having +5 HD for the purposes of controlling undead. One who succeeds at both gains the above benefits and does not automatically shift alignments to Evil upon becoming a sentient undead (conditions that would strip all rationality such a becoming an allip negate this insight).

"Why did she leave this?" one man asked the other. Neither knew, but both read the book carefully.

By the end Daeon who was used to being taught by parable and riddle suspected he knew the answer, but he did not speak it aloud. It would after all prick a devil's pride to be known for wanting to give hope to mortals.

OOC: In spite of all the trouble I've been having presenting books so far that was really fun to write.
 
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Yesyesyesyesyes!
*checks out most books from the backlog*

These bonuses sound really amasing.
Too bad we're never going to find any time to get our companions to read through any of books we have, let alone all these cool ones, eh?

Thank you, and I'm sorry for pestering you with these.
 
I liked this chapter.
One nitpick:
He believed in the light that Lord Yrael offered, though unlike most of his fellows he knew the Bright Ones could err, and though his tasks were sometimes less than... honorable and straightforward. So it had been with no small measure of bemusement that Daeon had taken the mission to deliver a book to Sorcerer's Deep in the West.
The bolded word breaks the sentence. Though what?
 
...You think we can reliably start a necromancer tradition in SD with this as a pinnacle of one's achievements?
*cough* every necromancer wants to be a litch, after all *cough*

I mean, for all that negative energy is like radioactive crack in this setting, there will always be people with natural predesposition to NE's use, right?
Better have them taught and tightly controlled, than offing themselves and other people.

@DragonParadox, does that sound plausible?
>_< I can't help but want to teach everyone in SD, even if that eventually includes fiend-binders.
 
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