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Paths of Civilization II: Paths of Industrialization

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Sivantic said:
I have been following the thread, but all I usually see is the final product and really, what is there to talk about? I literally have no Political Will to work with.

There is nothing I can do to convince them to listen without it.

The talking and covering for each other? That is supposed to happen after the six Political Will are used for the Primary Objective.

Sometimes, we the voters will find it inconvenient and sometimes even counterproductive. Again, feature, not a bug.

This is when we are supposed to use Political Will against them to stop it.
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Ah, yes, truly, it would clearly benefit all if instead of working together to achieve both their goals and advance our country in a good manner, parties would throw actions at a wall and see what sticks after the complicated mechanical balance, probably wasting both theirs and ours PW.

Christ, people, if you want involvement in a party plan making, voice your concerns in the thread. Post actions you would like to see and reasoning behind them to gather support from voters. Write PM's to the leaders. Do the usual democracy things.
 
Citino said:
Because the fact that all the main party leaders have several paragraphs of IC reasoning for their plans, as well as an OOC reason for the thread as a whole sure disputes that.
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Really do they have backups?
Do they have any idea what to do if example the thread decides to go:

2 PW royalists OR conservatives OR Liberals?
6 PW urban party
4 PW for farmers?

Or is their entire plan based on not letting the other parties have any actions that would screw up their shadow government?

I mean hell the conservative plan is

-Construct Sewer
-Improve SoL
-Improve SoL x2

That is well within the objectives of the Urban Party to max SoL and reduce Pollution. The only reason they can't do it this turn is because they are too far in the negative power for us to be able to spend enough PW to get it done as well as do all the railroads and DOs we need this turn. And shockingly I expect it to be the same next parliamentary turn as the higher power factions suck up all the available stats and PW for the actions we need to do that turn. So in other words we are stuck in this self-perpetuating cycle of do what the shadow government says or watch as the nation gets set on fire because they are hogging all the resources and are leaving none spare for us to invest to other parties because despite appearances they aren't different factions but a cabal of three people running things that get offended, Offended! if people don't want to give them all they want.

@Random Member Sharpen your pitchforks and hacksaws comrade the moment to strike approaches as the army is in the middle of rearmament and relatively weak as this transition continues. Words have failed, begin the revolt against the bourgeois and their works.

What has this thread done to me that I am becoming a filthy communist?
 
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Sivantic said:
@Academia Nut How much latitude do the parties have in fulfilling their Ambitions and Objectives?

Can I build an Espionage Network, just because the Liberals are already developing Industry?

Anything really. Practically everything @Xepheria is having the other parties do is something the Urban Workers Party wants to do.
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If you didn't do any collaboration with any of the party leaders or propose actions that you wanted or do any lawmaking activities, I failed to see why I should continue voting for you next election.
 
Okay, so the thing that just hit me:

We are currently discussing which parties deserves how much Political Will to see their plan done. This means you should be voting on account of who you trust to:

1. Not set the country on fire and immediately kick off a revolution (hint hint don't give Randov Mymblyr PW he likes a good revolution or ten)
2. Steer the country in a good direction.

On this basis, why is pre-preparing a plan between the parties a bad thing? It's a clear demonstration that the political parties and their leaders can manage the necessities of state while also planning in the future.

On the other hand, the parties declaring that yes, they can totally do the exact same plan by removing a spare action here or there to make up for the PW deficit should probably not be getting the votes because currently, the whole system of mechanics is so finetuned that without some serious time commitment it's very difficult to impossible to just remove an action here or there and not blow the whole thing up due to the infinite clusterfuck wonders of Happiness-SoL-Consc-Edu-Militan-Pollution mechanics.

So ultimately, the question is who you trust to handle the ship of state: The group that worked hard to ensure that there is a viable plan to begin with that accomplishes objectives they laid out, or the leader of the group plus someone else who is arguing that the plan is completely viable minus one or two actions to make them politically relevant.
 
[X] [Parl] Parliamentary Budget 1846 (Infrastructure and Security Bill)
-[X] [Parl] Royalists +5PW
-[X] [Parl] Conservatives +4PW
-[X] [Parl] Liberals +3PW
[X] [BS] Containment (Gives time for attempts at diplomacy and mobilization, increases risk to lowlands, gives time for the rebels to organize)
[X][Research1] Organic Chemistry (10/40-50?) AND Inorganic Chemistry (17/40-50?) [Science][Chemistry][Open]
-[X][Research1] Organic First
[X] [Kiel] Take them up on that marriage thing too! (As Yes, Please, and marriage decision is made in favour of the Kielmyr immediately rather than waiting another turn, ???)
[X][Research2] Breechloading Cannon (0/???) [Military][Weaponry][Open]

Here's to hoping we can get the Sketch to scream about bullshit on this one rather than vice versa. If we can immediately move to collaboration with the Kielmyr in rushing a modern navy... that's table flipping time right there for everyone's least favorite not!Scottish.
 
Random Member said:
See, all you people rating this funny think this is a joke, but AN rated my post insightful, which means it must be absolutely 100% correct. :V

(No, I'm not being serious here, in case you couldn't tell.)
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Oh, but AN is. Excluding the weaker parties in Parliament will increase their willingness to use solutions that further their goals that don't involve parliament. That can range from protests over strikes to revolution, if it festers long enough. Of course if the parties in power take actions that allign with the weaker parties goals that willingness is reduced.
 
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[X] [Parl] Parliamentary Budget 1846 (Infrastructure and Security Bill)
-[X] [Parl] Royalists +5PW
-[X] [Parl] Conservatives +4PW
-[X] [Parl] Liberals +3PW
[X] [BS] Containment (Gives time for attempts at diplomacy and mobilization, increases risk to lowlands, gives time for the rebels to organize)
[X][Research1] Organic Chemistry (10/40-50?) AND Inorganic Chemistry (17/40-50?) [Science][Chemistry][Open]
-[X][Research1] Organic First
[X] [Kiel] Take them up on that marriage thing too! (As Yes, Please, and marriage decision is made in favour of the Kielmyr immediately rather than waiting another turn, ???)
[X][Research2] Breechloading Cannon (0/???) [Military][Weaponry][Open]
 
[X] [Parl] Parliamentary Budget 1846 (Infrastructure and Security Bill)
-[X] [Parl] Royalists +5PW
-[X] [Parl] Conservatives +4PW
-[X] [Parl] Liberals +3PW
[X] [BS] Containment (Gives time for attempts at diplomacy and mobilization, increases risk to lowlands, gives time for the rebels to organize)
[X][Research1] Organic Chemistry (10/40-50?) AND Inorganic Chemistry (17/40-50?) [Science][Chemistry][Open]
-[X][Research1] Organic First
[X] [Kiel] Take them up on that marriage thing too! (As Yes, Please, and marriage decision is made in favour of the Kielmyr immediately rather than waiting another turn, ???)
[X][Research2] Breechloading Cannon (0/???) [Military][Weaponry][Open]
 
Arbit said:
Oh, but AN is. Excluding the weaker parties in Parliament will increase their willingness to use solutions that further their goals that don't involve parliament. That can range from protests over strikes to revolution, if it festers long enough. Of course if the parties in power take actions that alling with the waeker parties goals that willingness is reduced.

Edit: Well, I should have checked if AN actually rated that post insightful first.
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Omakes exists for that exact same thing as does the speeches, we have the rule of fluff still in effect, so yes, if the lower parties start making speeches upon speeches goading their electorate into revolts and protests? That's fine, AN would (probably) throw a malus saying a party is furious and needs placating.
 
Sivantic said:
Finally figured what was bothering me



All of that?

That was supposed to happen. It was a feature, not a bug.

The six Political Will that the parties have are supposed to go first and they are supposedly to be self-serving and potentially obnoxious.

It is supposed to be a mess. It was in fact meant to be a horse-trading simulator after all. Both between the parties and the players and between the parties themselves.

All I see here are bandwagons.
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Yeah, the parties being effectively suborned by the player base to do exactly what said player base wants kind of defeats the purpose of the parties in the first place...
Random Member said:
See @Sivantic , the problem is that you're trying to work with the bourgeoisie. As I already pointed out:
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Random Member said:
See, all you people rating this funny think this is a joke, but AN rated my post insightful, which means it must be absolutely 100% correct. :V

(No, I'm not being serious here, in case you couldn't tell.)
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You say you aren't being serious, but if I wasn't busy I would have given a shot at one of the lower parties, made lots of promises and tried to convince and cajole people to vote for my faction.

And then proceed to turn around and use whatever PW I could get on an internal DO to bring over those with power into the the lower party's belief. Something like a propaganda campaign for why farming or laborers are important. That is, if my quiet inquiries to AN behind the scenes told me that I couldn't get away with doing an intrigue action of some sort, which they probably would.

It would either end with my party having more power or a forced ConCon in which the Lower House gets oppressed, prepping for the revolution, or the lower house gets equal power and stops this nonsense from continuing.

That's the sort of stuff I'd like to see if people are going to go role playing factions. Instead they're now just an efficiency pipe to be min maxed...

[X] So a King, Priest, and a Foreman all walk into a bar...

I believe in you head of labor party! Bring the laborer's rights to the front!
 
KlinkerKing said:
[X] [Parl] Parliamentary Budget 1846 (Infrastructure and Security Bill)
-[X] [Parl] Royalists +5PW
-[X] [Parl] Conservatives +4PW
-[X] [Parl] Liberals +3PW

[X][Research1] Organic Chemistry (10/40-50?) AND Inorganic Chemistry (17/40-50?) [Science][Chemistry][Open]
-[X][Research1] Organic First
[X] [Kiel] Yes, please (-1 SoL while Five Crowns active (Kale-Yllthon line under construction or have not natively developed Steel Railroad), founds Rail Company)
[X][Research2] Breechloading Cannon (0/???) [Military][Weaponry][Open]
[X] [BS] Containment (Gives time for attempts at diplomacy and mobilization, increases risk to lowlands, gives time for the rebels to organize)

Sounds good.

Also, @George @Sivantic @keenscythe :
The reason they aren't doing this in thread in the first place is because they need a fucking spreadsheet to handle it, which they're doing on Google Docs, and since you'd need, at minimum, 2 monitors to handle both thread and spreadsheet, but only 1 monitor to handle spreadsheet + voice (and I know that Xeph only has a laptop). You figure it out ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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My opinion is that if you can't play the game in the thread then the system is broken and needs to be reformed. Though I do fine using a browser on one side of my screen and a spreadsheet on the other so...
 
[X] [Kiel] Yes, please (-1 SoL while Five Crowns active (Kale-Yllthon line under construction or have not natively developed Steel Railroad), founds Rail Company)

Okay, wait, I admit I may have missed it among all the thread discussion but can someone explain to me what we possibly gain by taking the Kielmyr marriage offer now instead of waiting to see other options? 'cause that choice is doing shockingly well for no reason apparent to me.

[X] Just Ploughing Along

[X] So a King, Priest, and a Foreman all walk into a bar...

Protest vote time! (seriously though, I am not well pleased with the assumption of thread support by the party leaders - for instance, they don't even bother mentioning what they'd do if given only some of their requested PW)
 
George said:
My opinion is that if you can't play the game in the thread then the system is broken and needs to be reformed. Though I do fine using a browser on one side of my screen and a spreadsheet on the other so...
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Oh yes, because all politicians live on a big brother where the electorate sees everything they do eh?
 
Mhm. Is it time for a revolution, comrades?

[X] Just Ploughing Along

[X] So a King, Priest, and a Foreman all walk into a bar...
 
Malevolo said:
Oh yes, because all politicians live on a big brother where the electorate sees everything they do eh?
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You're completely misunderstanding me here. I said if you can't, not if you won't, and am talking strictly about the out of character situation. I came to this thread for a forum game and don't have any interest in any hybrid discord/forum games.
They're saying there's too much work to use a forum. To me, that means simply that there is too much work. Thus, system reform.
 
[X] Just Ploughing Along

[X][Research1] Organic Chemistry (10/40-50?) AND Inorganic Chemistry (17/40-50?) [Science][Chemistry][Open]
-[X][Research1] Inorganic First
[X] [Kiel] Take them up on that marriage thing too! (As Yes, Please, and marriage decision is made in favour of the Kielmyr immediately rather than waiting another turn, ???)
[X][Research2] Mid 19th Century Army Doctrine (0/???) [Military][Army][Closed]
[X] [BS] Containment (Gives time for attempts at diplomacy and mobilization, increases risk to lowlands, gives time for the rebels to organize)
 
Academia Nut said:
Global Economy Remains Depressed, SoL from International Trade remains reduced or entirely suppressed. This is badly affecting the Hung as they gained considerable wealth from the sale of their luxuries to the international market.
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shouldn't this be shatteringly bad for the Sketch? Not just "depressed economy" but "what economy?". They're an island nation focused on international trade via naval power. International trade is their lifeblood
 
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Hat off:
Just so people are aware, I'm on the discord for planning and @maximillian stories. There's a link in my sig.

Please don't give the farmers party more than 1pw, it will just get wasted.
 
mastigos said:
shouldn't this be shatteringly bad for the Sketch? Not just "depressed economy" but "what economy?". They're an island nation focused on international trade via naval power.
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It's possible they're strong arming people to get a status that counters it to some degree. Or just the resources to do so.
Killer_Whale said:
Hat off:
Just so people are aware, I'm on the discord for planning and @maximillian stories. There's a link in my sig.

Please don't give the farmers party more than 1pw, it will just get wasted.
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What's your official position as Farmer Party Leader on what you'll do if given 4 PW?
 
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Wiadi said:
[X] [Kiel] Yes, please (-1 SoL while Five Crowns active (Kale-Yllthon line under construction or have not natively developed Steel Railroad), founds Rail Company)

Okay, wait, I admit I may have missed it among all the thread discussion but can someone explain to me what we possibly gain by taking the Kielmyr marriage offer now instead of waiting to see other options? 'cause that choice is doing shockingly well for no reason apparent to me.

[X] Just Ploughing Along

[X] So a King, Priest, and a Foreman all walk into a bar...

Protest vote time! (seriously though, I am not well pleased with the assumption of thread support by the party leaders - for instance, they don't even bother mentioning what they'd do if given only some of their requested PW)
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Considering you're suggesting that they'd have to make a plan for literally every combination of PW, I can see why they didn't...

The plan offered is their 'ideal'. What they can achieve if we give them everything. It gives the thread a general idea of what the leaders think their priorities are. If you give them less PW, then they'll adjust the plan they present to AN.

If you give them less, well, they'll get as much of their agenda done as they can.
 
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George said:
You're completely misunderstanding me here. I said if you can't, not if you won't, and am talking strictly about the out of character situation. I came to this thread for a forum game and don't have any interest in any hybrid discord/forum games.
They're saying there's too much work to use a forum. To me, that means simply that there is too much work. Thus, system reform.
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Paths of Civilization has always been work heavy, high attention, high maintenance quest. This is not a casual quest where you come, read, drop your vote, them go away, it requires work and we like it.
 
Killer_Whale said:
Please don't give the farmers party more than 1pw, it will just get wasted.
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I mean, don't you have "High SoL" as a party objective? So you should be fine to take Improve SoL in place of Manus if Ploughing Along wins, yeah? (obviously you couldn't take it as many times due to having less PW, but that's an entirely separate matter from not having useful ways to spend PW)
Citino said:
Considering you're suggesting that they'd have to make a plan for literally every combination of PW, I can see why they didn't...
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No? Like, there is a middle ground. For example, they could indicate the approximate priority placed on each of the bonus-PW actions (e.g. is Xepheria more inclined to Increase Armies or Build Espionage Network, if able to accomplish one but not both?). This wouldn't be an absolute commitment to doing things one way or the other, just an acknowledgment of the possibility of getting less PW than ideally desired and an articulation of how that would be handled.
 
Malevolo said:
Paths of Civilization has always been work heavy, high attention, high maintenance quest. This is not a casual quest where you come, read, drop your vote, them go away, it requires work and we like it.
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Yes, just like most of AN's quests for years, which I appreciate and enjoy, until it means that the game isn't feasible to play on a forum.

You do know that AN has reformed his systems for being too much work before, right?

E: Of course, it's also possible there isn't too much work and my desire for thread-based negotiations could be met by a different set of representatives.
 
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