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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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It's too bad that we don't have a copy of our Codex of Laws to give to the Reds.
 
Azel said:
"Speak softly and carry a big stick be a huge dragon."

There is nothing to be gained from antagonizing them, since they already know that we hold every card this side of the Disputed Lands.

Also take note that we are not exactly negotiating for now. All the things we say are statements of fact. They basically get a heads-up how things will go from here and a chance to pick where they will be during all of that.
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I'm just happy the "Reassure them that they will be able to continue operating in the city, provided they keep to the laws of the realm," thing is gone now. My problem was with making concessions and promises when we're the one with all the cards. They should be trying to suck up to us right now.
 
Azel said:
"Speak softly and carry a big stick be a huge dragon."

There is nothing to be gained from antagonizing them, since they already know that we hold every card this side of the Disputed Lands.

Also take note that we are not exactly negotiating for now. All the things we say are statements of fact. They basically get a heads-up how things will go from here and a chance to pick where they will be during all of that.
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This. Just being the friendly neighborhood dragonman... being all polite and friendly when you have all the cards speaks louder than a million threats.

[X] Azel

Edit: Assuming, of course, a rational audience... which is far from garanteed here. It'll be interesting seeing where exactly the local faith of R'hllor fit in the graph of competence from Braavosi clusterfucks to Benerro. They don't seem very competent at first glance, given the state of the city....
 
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Duesal said:
I'm just happy the "Reassure them that they will be able to continue operating in the city, provided they keep to the laws of the realm," thing is gone now. My problem was with making concessions and promises when we're the one with all the cards. They should be trying to suck up to us right now.
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That was like the smallest possible concession, maybe ever. All It amounted to was "btw, i dont consider you my enemies, you are welcome", what else could we do? Tell them that we planned to raze this place to the ground and forcibly convert all their followers?
 
das_slash said:
That was like the smallest possible concession, maybe ever. All It amounted to was "btw, i dont consider you my enemies, you are welcome", what else could we do? Tell them that we planned to raze this place to the ground and forcibly convert all their followers?
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...Is it wrong of me to want to answer "Yes." to this?

I mean, sure we're not going to let them know that's exactly what we're going to do, if slowly and with care taken...

But we also are a dragon and totally could make this work.

Mwhagahaha!

*suddenly understands that his unexpected hateboner and some megalomania are likely due to lack of sleep and promptly goes to bed*
 
A thought that came near sleep that I post before I forget:

That primer on Others Rina is writing? Research potential aside, it's going to be great help to Night Watch, our baby-adventurers and (though hopefully not for a long while) Inquisition.


But unless it comes out in Legendary quality, we can make it even better.

Philosopher's Tree is the answer.

Honestly, I'm starting to think there is nothing it isn't an answer to :D

Simply have someone sit there with Old Gods and listen to their ramblings about their oldest enemy.
I'm pretty sure that +20 roll to knowledge is enough to improve the final result of a book one way or another.
 
das_slash said:
That was like the smallest possible concession, maybe ever. All It amounted to was "btw, i dont consider you my enemies, you are welcome", what else could we do? Tell them that we planned to raze this place to the ground and forcibly convert all their followers?
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The entire point of the negotiations is to see what they are offering us as the conquerers, and what we can force out of them. Offering them reassurance that their status-quo will be more or less the same before negotiations even begin shoots that in the foot. We can do this politely, but we don't need to start with "By the way, your position here is secure, no worries."
 
Duesal said:
The entire point of the negotiations is to see what they are offering us as the conquerers, and what we can force out of them. Offering them reassurance that their status-quo will be more or less the same before negotiations even begin shoots that in the foot. We can do this politely, but we don't need to start with "By the way, your position here is secure, no worries."
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But it is, they were nothing before the conquest, this negotiation is not so they can survive, is so they can thrive, and it all depends on what they offer.
 
Maybe we should announce to the Reds that we'll be conducting an audit of their temple's contents, including any artifacts, cash, and most importantly, the people living there.

It would be a terrible shame if we found any slaves or prisoners awaiting sacrifice. Perhaps they would like to turn over any undeclared human assets beforehand?
 
@das_slash, the status quo is most certainly changing for the Reds. They can no longer keep slaves and we are effectively disbanding the Fiery Hand, save for a few ceremonial temple guards. There's also the matter that they will have to provide a full list of their temple employees and other servants, both for their registration as clergy and especially all casters for registration with the Scholarium.

There will a long paper-trail left by their temple that we can and will use to monitor and control them.
 
Azel said:
@das_slash, the status quo is most certainly changing for the Reds. They can no longer keep slaves and we are effectively disbanding the Fiery Hand, save for a few ceremonial temple guards. There's also the matter that they will have to provide a full list of their temple employees and other servants, both for their registration as clergy and especially all casters for registration with the Scholarium.

There will a long paper-trail left by their temple that we can and will use to monitor and control them.
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Well, other than that of course, and that was included in the vote, what i meant is that we wont forbid them from preaching, owning property or conducting their rites (excluding human sacrifice, if such was performed).
Basically, as long as they dont break they law, they can continue to operate as normal, they should just be aware that even if they still call themselves "slaves to rhllor", they are all legally free men, so if anyone chooses to leave they can.

@Duesal I just dont understand why the simple reassurance of "dont worry, we allow multiple religions in our lands" was taken as such a huge concession, it was only mentioned because, well, they dont know our code of law and thus might be under the misconception that we are a religious state.
 
das_slash said:
Well, other than that of course, and that was included in the vote, what i meant is that we wont forbid them from preaching, owning property or conducting their rites (excluding human sacrifice, if such was performed).
Basically, as long as they dont break they law, they can continue to operate as normal, they should just be aware that even if they still call themselves "slaves to rhllor", they are all legally free men, so if anyone chooses to leave they can.

@Duesal I just dont understand why the simple reassurance of "dont worry, we allow multiple religions in our lands" was taken as such a huge concession, it was only mentioned because, well, they dont know our code of law and thus might be under the misconception that we are a religious state.
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Because our laws require whitelisting for organized religions. That is what the Red Priests in SD are trying to negotiate for, and what the church of R'hllor as a whole is working towards. It the main carrot we have for them, and what they want to receive. And your opening line effectively granted it to them, before we even started negotiations.
 
das_slash said:
@Duesal I just dont understand why the simple reassurance of "dont worry, we allow multiple religions in our lands" was taken as such a huge concession, it was only mentioned because, well, they dont know our code of law and thus might be under the misconception that we are a religious state.
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What Diomedon said. Your "concession" was not a concession, it was giving them the carrot before negotiations even started.
 
Mhhh. Carrots.

[X] Azel

Some day, I'd like to have the party hit R'hllor with the proverbial stick. But that is super long-term goal :D

Edit: Most people are enemy of the great other. It's one of the most common titles one can have, @Azel, :p.
 
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Diomedon said:
Because our laws require whitelisting for organized religions. That is what the Red Priests in SD are trying to negotiate for, and what the church of R'hllor as a whole is working towards. It the main carrot we have for them, and what they want to receive. And your opening line effectively granted it to them, before we even started negotiations.
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Duesal said:
What Diomedon said. Your "concession" was not a concession, it was giving them the carrot before negotiations even started.
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Ok, i understand the problem now, we have completely different goals here.
You basically want to blackmail them into giving us something in exchange for the very basic rights of every citizen and organization? i mean, it does agree with previous behaviour, but im hoping for so much more.
From my point of view, the whitelist is something that is going to happen either way, we can help it along or we can obstruct it depending on their actions, but ultimately it is a legal process that everyone has to submit to, the outcome shouldnt depend on this meeting, specially when they have so many followers in the city.
But we can do so much more, depending on their offer we can give them better lands, funding and even sacrifices in exchange for their help in securing the city, calming and healing the masses, and even access to whatever spy network they have across essos.

Those are my goals here, securing their services for the empire, not just extorting whatever we can from them as payment for past grievances.

Edit: to clarify, saying that they can continue to operate means just that, they will still be a religion in the city, the part about "follow the laws of the realm" should imply that they have to register, both as an organization and as individual clerics, but i honestly never considered that they might fail the process, as it is more of a control mechanism than a wall.
 
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das_slash said:
Ok, i understand the problem now, we have completely different goals here.
You basically want to blackmail them into giving us something in exchange for the very basic rights of every citizen and organization? i mean, it does agree with previous behaviour, but im hoping for so much more.
From my point of view, the whitelist is something that is going to happen either way, we can help it along or we can obstruct it depending on their actions, but ultimately it is a legal process that everyone has to submit to, the outcome shouldnt depend on this meeting, specially when they have so many followers in the city.
But we can do so much more, depending on their offer we can give them better lands, funding and even sacrifices in exchange for their help in securing the city, calming and healing the masses, and even access to whatever spy network they have across essos.

Those are my goals here, securing their services for the empire, not just extorting whatever we can from them as payment for past grievances.
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My goal is kill the god the church is feeding.
 
das_slash said:
To be honest i wouldnt mind that, i just dont think its possible for the foreseeable future.
I want the church, not the god, pokemon collection aside.
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I agree, not possible for a long time, which is why I'm so against giving these people anything we aren't forced to by the size of their church. The Red god has enough power, thank you.
 
das_slash said:
But we can do so much more, depending on their offer we can give them better lands, funding and even sacrifices in exchange for their help in securing the city, calming and healing the masses, and even access to whatever spy network they have across essos.
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Uhm... why should we do these things again?

The Reds probably have not much of worth to offer us, except for their acceptance of our rule and cooperation with the state. Everything else they can give us is mostly nice to have, but in no way vital.

Thus we will in fact extract as many concessions from them as possible while giving as little as we can. Aiding or empowering them is no way in our interests.
 
Azel said:
Uhm... why should we do these things again?

The Reds probably have not much of worth to offer us, except for their acceptance of our rule and cooperation with the state. Everything else they can give us is mostly nice to have, but in no way vital.

Thus we will in fact extract as many concessions from them as possible while giving as little as we can. Aiding or empowering them is no way in our interests.
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We only give them as much as they give us, thats why this is a negotiation and why they should start with the real offers.
If they have nothing of value to give, then we give them nothing.
 
das_slash said:
Ok, i understand the problem now, we have completely different goals here.
You basically want to blackmail them into giving us something in exchange for the very basic rights of every citizen and organization? i mean, it does agree with previous behaviour, but im hoping for so much more.
From my point of view, the whitelist is something that is going to happen either way, we can help it along or we can obstruct it depending on their actions, but ultimately it is a legal process that everyone has to submit to, the outcome shouldnt depend on this meeting, specially when they have so many followers in the city.
But we can do so much more, depending on their offer we can give them better lands, funding and even sacrifices in exchange for their help in securing the city, calming and healing the masses, and even access to whatever spy network they have across essos.

Those are my goals here, securing their services for the empire, not just extorting whatever we can from them as payment for past grievances.

Edit: to clarify, saying that they can continue to operate means just that, they will still be a religion in the city, the part about "follow the laws of the realm" should imply that they have to register, both as an organization and as individual clerics, but i honestly never considered that they might fail the process, as it is more of a control mechanism than a wall.
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That's a big part of the problem. These are the Red Priests. Sure, they have the likes of Benerro among their ranks, but he's explicitly a rarity. In Braavos we had zealots attack Dany before she awakened her magic. In Lys we had zealots ban us from their temple after we saved them, and then further down the line form a mob to come burn the new weirwood tree. And here in Tyrosh, they just tried to sneakily get credit for freeing the slaves after doing none of the work. At the very least that should set a precedent that we shouldn't be nice or generous when dealing with them.

We can establish a working relationship, sure. After they give concessions. We have all the cards, we don't have to budge.
Also:
depending on their offer we can give them better lands, funding and even sacrifices in exchange for their help in securing the city, calming and healing the masses, and even access to whatever spy network they have across essos.
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Yeah. No. I'd fight this if it actually got put up for a vote. Making them more powerful??? Even going so far as to give them sacrifices? The ultimate goal is to burn their fire god. This spectacularly gets in the way of that.
 
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