Paths of Civilization II: Paths of Industrialization

[X] [Peace] 2 PW - Negotiate with the rest of the Coalition for the Dissolution of Tortun (Gain Wyrmyn lands, remove Humiliating Loss, Tortun Republic broken up into six Constitutional Grand Duchies, various powers gain small amounts of Tortun land, Ochruhr utterly humiliated by all powers)
[X] [Guilds] 1 PW - Allow the dissolution but do not address the larger issue of the guilds (-1 Temp Happiness, +1 Temp Consciousness, remove Recent Constitutional Changes status)
[X] [Research] Modern Nationalism (0/???) [Social]

Researching modern nationalism sounds like terribly bad idea. We shall see how bad, I suppose.

[X] [Peace] 0 PW - Take the Wyrmyn territories you have conquered and let everyone else figure things out (-2 Temp Trust, gain Wyrmyn lands, may not count as avenging Humiliating Loss)
[X] [Guilds] 4 PW Invested - Begin a new constitutional convention to address these issues (1819 is a constitutional turn)
[X] [Research]Academic Freedom (0/???) [Social]

On the other hand getting to put our own spin on the idea before the ideology takes root seems like a good idea.

[X] [Peace] 2 PW - Negotiate with the rest of the Coalition for the Dissolution of Tortun (Gain Wyrmyn lands, remove Humiliating Loss, Tortun Republic broken up into six Constitutional Grand Duchies, various powers gain small amounts of Tortun land, Ochruhr utterly humiliated by all powers)
[X] [Guilds] 1 PW - Allow the dissolution but do not address the larger issue of the guilds (-1 Temp Happiness, +1 Temp Consciousness, remove Recent Constitutional Changes status)
[X] [Research] Modern Nationalism (0/???) [Social]

ctulhuslp said:

While true, wasn't it us who seeded such thoughts there in the first place?

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If I remember my english history right, there was a strengthening parliament reform movement in England leading up to the French revolution. At which point reactionary conservatism and patriotism killed reforms for the next 40 years.

So that isn't really a guarantee.

Dutch said:

If I remember my english history right, there was a strengthening parliament reform movement in England leading up to the French revolution. At which point reactionary conservatism and patriotism killed reforms for the next 40 years.

So that isn't really a guarantee.

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True enough...which is why we set up the Hespraxer Constutional Monarchy and also pounded the Republics to help keep the moderate doors open-ish.

One thing is that we've been keeping a relatively good standard of living and happiness, so the new ideas were not at the level of decapitations yet, when they circulate out of us...and then once they hit the parts of the world that didn't...fwoosh.
Fire sure is warm

[X] [Peace] 0 PW - Take the Wyrmyn territories you have conquered and let everyone else figure things out (-2 Temp Trust, gain Wyrmyn lands, may not count as avenging Humiliating Loss)
[X] [Guilds] 1 PW - Allow the dissolution but do not address the larger issue of the guilds (-1 Temp Happiness, +1 Temp Consciousness, remove Recent Constitutional Changes status)

[X] [Peace] 2 PW - Negotiate with the rest of the Coalition for the Dissolution of Tortun (Gain Wyrmyn lands, remove Humiliating Loss, Tortun Republic broken up into six Constitutional Grand Duchies, various powers gain small amounts of Tortun land, Ochruhr utterly humiliated by all powers)
[X] [Guilds] 1 PW - Allow the dissolution but do not address the larger issue of the guilds (-1 Temp Happiness, +1 Temp Consciousness, remove Recent Constitutional Changes status)
[X] [Research] Modern Nationalism (0/???) [Social]

Dropping out separately is really bad. We don't want to establish precedent that coalitions are races to get bought off first while you can strong arm the best deal from the target country. From what's been said we can wait a turn or two to hold the next convention and sort out the guild situation with enough PW to matter. The Ochruhr don't have a border with us and the hate should be spread out among all the coalition members so I don't rate them as equally dangerous to a revived hypernationalist Tortun state gunning for us.

Getting Nationalism now won't make the immediate situation we're in ethnically homogeneous, but it will give us more time to work through the divisions and some idea of what end we should be aiming for. If we're factoring in the goal of forming a common national identity in our populace then our already existing expenditure on, say, patronage of literature, the education system, transport and the arts could change to support that goal as a result.

[X] [Peace] 2 PW - Negotiate with the rest of the Coalition for the Dissolution of Tortun (Gain Wyrmyn lands, remove Humiliating Loss, Tortun Republic broken up into six Constitutional Grand Duchies, various powers gain small amounts of Tortun land, Ochruhr utterly humiliated by all powers)

[X] [Peace] 4 PW - No peace, keep pressing! (-4 Temp Trust, war does not end, Tortun nationalism set to 12/10)

[X] [Guilds] 0 PW - Block the dissolution of the precision guilds (-1 Temp Happiness, guild position strengthened)

@Academia Nut

If we do have a Constitutional Convention, do we have enough alcohol in reserve and organized a rotation system for the civil service in case things go out of hand again?

A spy network in the duchies would be nice. We could even covertly have the Ochruhr take over a duchy or two.

People, modern nationalism, really? Not for example Academic Freedom, that could help to develop our science?

[X] [Peace] 2 PW - Negotiate with the rest of the Coalition for the Dissolution of Tortun (Gain Wyrmyn lands, remove Humiliating Loss, Tortun Republic broken up into six Constitutional Grand Duchies, various powers gain small amounts of Tortun land, Ochruhr utterly humiliated by all powers)
[X] [Guilds] 1 PW - Allow the dissolution but do not address the larger issue of the guilds (-1 Temp Happiness, +1 Temp Consciousness, remove Recent Constitutional Changes status)
[X] [Research] Early Modern Logic (0/20-25?) [Science]

liberty90 said:

People, modern nationalism, really? Not for example Academic Freedom, that could help to develop our science?

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You have to remember what's going on. I'd much rather get Nationalism or Early Logic than Academic Freedom while we're dealing with breaking the guilds.

[X] [Peace] 2 PW - Negotiate with the rest of the Coalition for the Dissolution of Tortun (Gain Wyrmyn lands, remove Humiliating Loss, Tortun Republic broken up into six Constitutional Grand Duchies, various powers gain small amounts of Tortun land, Ochruhr utterly humiliated by all powers)
[X] [Guilds] 1 PW - Allow the dissolution but do not address the larger issue of the guilds (-1 Temp Happiness, +1 Temp Consciousness, remove Recent Constitutional Changes status)
[X] [Research] Modern Nationalism (0/???) [Social]

Plan: Break your heart to mend your spine
[x] [Peace] 0 PW - Take the Wyrmyn territories you have conquered and let everyone else figure things out (-2 Temp Trust, gain Wyrmyn lands, may not count as avenging Humiliating Loss)
[x] [Guilds] 4 PW Invested - Begin a new constitutional convention to address these issues (1819 is a constitutional turn)
[x] [Research] Early Modern Logic (0/20-25?) [Science]

You have 4 PW to spend
You've won the war! Now to win the peace...
[] [Peace] 0 PW - Take the Wyrmyn territories you have conquered and let everyone else figure things out (-2 Temp Trust, gain Wyrmyn lands, may not count as avenging Humiliating Loss)
Worse comes to worst we will fight von Hohozyn again. And more importantly, and more selfishly, it means being able to gut the guilds.

Realistically, it means our people will be grumbling about the Tortun solution, but it also means we re-unify our Wyrmyn buffer state - and with a constitutional convention upcoming we might even be able to extend them some rights to limited self-governance (triple crown?)

Guilds
[] [Guilds] 4 PW Invested - Begin a new constitutional convention to address these issues (1819 is a constitutional turn)
Anything is better that than letting the guilds waste another full turn until 1824 or even later.

Above all else, I would argue against tepid half-measures: Either shatter the Tortuns completely, settling the Hohozyn issue completely, or by taking the guilds and twisting their spines into modern art. Trying to do a bit of both will satisfy no strategic goals and only make us more enemies.


New Research Option for the Most Ancient University of Redshore
[] [Research] Early Modern Logic (0/20-25?) [Science]
Yo, we are still operating on Four Humours theory of medical science. You know - bile, phlegm, that sort of stuff? We need logic, codified and dispassionate, to observe the past achievements of the Gylruv-Ymaryn and work out what works, and how it works, and what doesn't work.

[X] Cornuthaum

[x] [Peace] 0 PW - Take the Wyrmyn territories you have conquered and let everyone else figure things out (-2 Temp Trust, gain Wyrmyn lands, may not count as avenging Humiliating Loss)
[x] [Guilds] 4 PW Invested - Begin a new constitutional convention to address these issues (1819 is a constitutional turn)
[x] [Research] Early Modern Logic (0/20-25?) [Science]

[X] [Peace] 2 PW - Negotiate with the rest of the Coalition for the Dissolution of Tortun (Gain Wyrmyn lands, remove Humiliating Loss, Tortun Republic broken up into six Constitutional Grand Duchies, various powers gain small amounts of Tortun land, Ochruhr utterly humiliated by all powers)
[X] [Guilds] 1 PW - Allow the dissolution but do not address the larger issue of the guilds (-1 Temp Happiness, +1 Temp Consciousness, remove Recent Constitutional Changes status)


[x] [Research] Early Modern Logic (0/20-25?) [Science]


Okay, I just did not notice we can pick Logic. We kinda have to?
It's extremely important thingie, us not having it is kinda abominable, and third slot is likely to be busy with other things for a while.

ctulhuslp said:

[X] [Peace] 2 PW - Negotiate with the rest of the Coalition for the Dissolution of Tortun (Gain Wyrmyn lands, remove Humiliating Loss, Tortun Republic broken up into six Constitutional Grand Duchies, various powers gain small amounts of Tortun land, Ochruhr utterly humiliated by all powers)
[X] [Guilds] 1 PW - Allow the dissolution but do not address the larger issue of the guilds (-1 Temp Happiness, +1 Temp Consciousness, remove Recent Constitutional Changes status)


[x] [Research] Early Modern Logic (0/20-25?) [Science]


Okay, I just did not notice we can pick Logic. We kinda have to?
It's extremely important thingie, us not having it is kinda abominable, and third slot is likely to be busy with other things for a while.

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Why the change to partition the Tortun lands?

Cornuthaum said:

Plan: Break your heart to mend your spine

New Research Option for the Most Ancient University of Redshore
[] [Research] Early Modern Logic (0/20-25?) [Science]
Yo, we are still operating on Four Humours theory of medical science. You know - bile, phlegm, that sort of stuff? We need logic, codified and dispassionate, to observe the past achievements of the Gylruv-Ymaryn and work out what works, and how it works, and what doesn't work.

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True but I do not want to waste the bonus to social research.

Most Ancient University of Redshore (Bonus to Social Research)


Also if we continue to research science in Generic Academy II it will start to offer a science bonus so I would prefer to science research there. It is currently researching Industrial Era Optics, with the allow the dissolution option the new Crown Glass company will likely accelerate that research.

[x] [Peace] 0 PW - Take the Wyrmyn territories you have conquered and let everyone else figure things out (-2 Temp Trust, gain Wyrmyn lands, may not count as avenging Humiliating Loss)
[x] [Guilds] 4 PW Invested - Begin a new constitutional convention to address these issues (1819 is a constitutional turn)
[x] [Research] Early Modern Logic (0/20-25?) [Science]

I feel persuaded by Cornuthaum to slightly change my vote.

[x] [Peace] 0 PW - Take the Wyrmyn territories you have conquered and let everyone else figure things out (-2 Temp Trust, gain Wyrmyn lands, may not count as avenging Humiliating Loss)
[x] [Guilds] 4 PW Invested - Begin a new constitutional convention to address these issues (1819 is a constitutional turn)
[x] [Research] Early Modern Logic (0/20-25?) [Science]

Cornuthaum said:

Anything is better that than letting the guilds waste another full turn until 1824 or even later.

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This is not the start of a Main Turn. That one starts in 1820 (which is also when we gain new Political Will).
If we hold the convention in 1819, we go into it with having almost no PW to spend. We would have to make compromises and follow the will of our high Militancy population to gain the addtional PW needed to reform the guilds during the convention.

@Cornuthaum actually AN has clarified that 4pw isn't quite enough to shatter the guilds. If we do the constitutional convention now, we're going to be forced to make some compromises to get the PW neccessary to do it, and we might not like the compromises we need to make. On the other hand, he's also stated that any roadblock to a CC has been removed so we can do a CC this upcoming turn with more PW than right now, so we can cut down on the compromises we need to make. I'd rather go for the crown corps for now, then CC as soon as the turn starts.