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Paths of Civilization II: Paths of Industrialization

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VoidZero said:
Isn't it dangerous to give veto power to everyone? Upper and Lower can shot each other's plan due to different focused and agenda.
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Yes, that's possible. But I want to advance toward giving the commoners more power as quickly as possible. I wouldn't have given the veto to the nobility if AN didn't require that the lower house can't be more powerful than the upper house, but this is the best we can do for now.
 
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agumentic said:
Does losing 1 temp happiness matters that much? We're probably gonna drop a lot of Cons after the constitution anyway, improving it, and even in the worst case scenario we drop to 2, which is worryingly low, but not "revolt/coup now" low.
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The happiness cost is worrying, but the SOL drop with our still high militancy combined with said happiness drop is pretty nasty, and could very well kick off a revolution.
 
tryrar said:
....I'd rather break the guilds and get industrialized first. Then we can worry about more democratic institutions
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Without the commoners having a veto, the guilds can use the political institutions to pass laws that destroy capitalism before it starts. That's why I want to give the commoners a veto while also liberalizing land use and movement to allow for capitalism to start in the first place.
 
Timewinders said:
Without the commoners having a veto, the guilds can use the political institutions to pass laws that destroy capitalism before it starts. That's why I want to give the commoners a veto while also liberalizing land use and movement to allow for capitalism to start in the first place.
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No political institutions can pass laws, except the king.
 
Timewinders said:
Without the commoners having a veto, the guilds can use the political institutions to pass laws that destroy capitalism before it starts. That's why I want to give the commoners a veto while also liberalizing land use and movement to allow for capitalism to start in the first place.
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As agumentic said, both bodies are just advisory unless specified otherwise. They have the ear of the king, but the king still makes the final decision.
 
Timewinders said:
Without the commoners having a veto, the guilds can use the political institutions to pass laws that destroy capitalism before it starts. That's why I want to give the commoners a veto while also liberalizing land use and movement to allow for capitalism to start in the first place.
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....how does that work? Both houses in the leading plan have an advisory role only, meaning the king still has final say. And since we control the king, that shouldn't be an issue. Plus, since voting is with landed peoples, and we're opening up land ownership to anyone who can pay, we still get much more democratic institutions than before.
 
Okay so now that I have a little time, some option assessment:

What powers shall be invested in the Upper House? Current Status Quo: Advisory
[] [UH] +1 PW - Advisory
[] [UH] 1 PW - Veto
[] [UH] 2 PW - Minor lawmaking
[] [UH] 3 PW - Power of the purse
[] [UH] 8 PW - Total lawmaking

Should there be a Lower House and what should it do? Current Status Quo: None (Cannot be stronger than the Upper House this Constitution)
[] [LH] 0 PW - None
[] [LH] 1 PW - Advisory (+1 Temp Happiness)
[] [LH] 3 PW - Veto (+1 Temp Happiness)

Take note that while the King is invested in breaking the influence of the Guilds, the more power the two Houses have the harder it will be to NOT protect the Guilds when they realize what we're doing to them. They just need to bribe enough nobles for the Upper Houses or threaten the jobs of the Lower House to get a Veto going.

Who has the right to vote or serve in a higher government roles? Current Status Quo: Upper Nobility
[] [Franchise] 1 PW - Upper nobility
[] [Franchise] +1 PW - Landed only
[] [Franchise] 1 PW - All titles
[] [Franchise] 3 PW - Poll tax

This is just widening the pool so we get more merit based rather than bloodline based administration. Wider this is the more effectively government runs.

Who may be an officer in the army or in other administrative functions? Current Status Quo: Noble Only
[] [Officers] 0 PW - Noble only
[] [Officers] +1 PW - Easy non-inheritable titles
[] [Officers] 2 PW - Universal

Easy titles basically means we open up anyone to serve but they must be granted them individually. Works for us for social mobility!

Who may own land? Status Quo: Noble Only
[] [LO] 0 PW - Noble only
[] [LO] 2 PW - Anyone with the money

Major important element for pushing back the Guild entrenchments.

What about freedom of movement? Status Quo: Restricted (Serf)
[] [Movement] 1 PW - Restricted (Serf)
[] [Movement] 1 PW - Restricted (Internal Borders)
[] [Movement] 3 PW - Free Internal Movement (+1 Temp Happiness)

Free internal movement is crucial to breaking the Guild

Freedom of assembly? Status Quo: Restricted
[] [Assembly] 0 PW - Restricted
[] [Assembly] 1 PW - Limited
[] [Assembly] 2 PW - Broad

Given how much shit we're going to stir, we want to err on the low side for this or we ARE going to be eating riots.

Freedom of the press? Status Quo: Crown Only
[] [Press] 0 PW - Crown Only
[] [Press] +1 PW - Free ownership with Crown Censorship (-1 Temp Happiness)
[] [Press] 2 PW - Free press (-1 Temp Happiness, Min. Consciousness from Education Increased by 1)

Bad time to open up the press, but the freer the press the easier to push reform in upcoming constitutions.

Status of the Guilds? Status Quo: Crown Sponsorship
[] [Guilds] +2 PW - Expand their sphere of influence (+1 Temp Happiness)
[] [Guilds] 0 PW - Crown Sponsorship
[] [Guilds] 2 PW - Fail to increase the regions of their influence (-1 Temp Happiness)
[] [Guilds] 6 PW - Provide no constitutional protections (-2 Temp Happiness, -1 SoL, -1 Active Development)

And here...going full in on the Guilds means they WILL actively fight to protect their status, and worse, the common people will agree, because their rights are older than religion. You just need to create room for the corporations to grow and compete.

Now to reassess the votes
E: Amended Cornutham is exactly my ideal vote. Yay
 
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tryrar said:
The happiness cost is worrying, but the SOL drop with our still high militancy combined with said happiness drop is pretty nasty, and could very well kick off a revolution.
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Like I said, even in the worst case scenario, happiness drops to 2, which might see us some unrest, but I really doubt it'll cause a revolution, especially since we already did a constitution with a lot of things people want.
 
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I've got a bad feeling that the military reform is going to suuuuuuuuuuuccccckkkk.

Hope very hard that getting driven off by the Tortuns even though they were 1v3ing great powers is enough to stimulate cheap reforms in terms of political will. We are burning political power here, and unless we get near universal consensus here, chances are we go into the reforms with 0 political power. It's sorely needed reforms, but that won't stop me from being terribly concerned.

[X] Cornuthaum
 
Sturmi said:
I've got a bad feeling that the military reform is going to suuuuuuuuuuuccccckkkk.

Hope very hard that getting driven off by the Tortuns even though they were 1v3ing great powers is enough to stimulate cheap reforms in terms of political will. We are burning political power here, and unless we get near universal consensus here, chances are we go into the reforms with 0 political power. It's sorely needed reforms, but that won't stop me from being terribly concerned.

[X] Cornuthaum
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Actually, they were 1 vs 1.75ing, since we entered pretty late, and only when most of our allies were exhausted or distracted. And then the Tortun sued for peace before the Sketch could descend on them, since that would have wiped out their coastline.

Not that it wasn't impressive and terrifying, but it wasn't quite as impressive as it seems at first glance.
 
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Something that came up on the Discord was the Landed Only franchise vote which would let anyone who can afford to hold land vote.

Now, this is very appealing because it's another +1 PW option, which means that we could use it to drop Assembly to none and get universal Civil Service and Military Service, i.e. the Barrayaran option, which would be phenomenal for social mobility and access to raw talent.

But, but, I worry that this option would literally let the Guilds buy voting share due to them being the second-most significant holders of land and capital in the country after the Nobility, and you know what I want to do with the Guilds.
 
Cornuthaum said:
Something that came up on the Discord was the Landed Only franchise vote which would let anyone who can afford to hold land vote.

Now, this is very appealing because it's another +1 PW option, which means that we could use it to drop Assembly to none and get universal Civil Service and Military Service, i.e. the Barrayaran option, which would be phenomenal for social mobility and access to raw talent.

But, but, I worry that this option would literally let the Guilds buy voting share due to them being the second-most significant holders of land and capital in the country after the Nobility, and you know what I want to do with the Guilds.
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On the other hand, the votes are by people, and not by amount of land that person owns. And we have a ton of Crown land and Kiberian land that we can practically give out to people who want to settle it. They might have more power early on, but if we can pass a homestead act, they would have to compete with a massive number of new landowners.
 
Cornuthaum said:
Something that came up on the Discord was the Landed Only franchise vote which would let anyone who can afford to hold land vote.

Now, this is very appealing because it's another +1 PW option, which means that we could use it to drop Assembly to none and get universal Civil Service and Military Service, i.e. the Barrayaran option, which would be phenomenal for social mobility and access to raw talent.

But, but, I worry that this option would literally let the Guilds buy voting share due to them being the second-most significant holders of land and capital in the country after the Nobility, and you know what I want to do with the Guilds.
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It might force the guild to buy up land in Keybria and get development there. :V
 
Then we need to keep Landed Vote back until an entire class of new landowners is created first. If we reverse the order the Guilds will buy up all the lands to get political power.

We should make a land tax to force people to actually develop the land, rather than just buy votes.
 
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Citino said:
On the other hand, the votes are by people, and not by amount of land that person owns. And we have a ton of Crown land and Kiberian land that we can practically give out to people who want to settle it. They might have more power early on, but if we can pass a homestead act, they would have to compete with a massive number of new landowners.
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Well, the guilds can just buy up land and then give it to individual guild members with the understanding that said members will vote in their guild's interests. It would also, for that very reason, give them incentive to resist such a homestead act - which, given their increased power initially, could be a meaningful obstacle.
 
HanEmpire said:
Then we need to keep Landed Vote back until an entire class of new landowners is created first. If we reverse the order the Guilds will buy up all the lands to get political power.
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Can they do that though? I mean, they'd have to buy up a lot of land.

Like, 'bigger than the rest of europe combined' amounts of land.
 
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