Paths of Civilization II: Paths of Industrialization

10ebbor10 · Mar 7, 2018

ctulhuslp said:
Like, what happened now is not!Treaty of Tilsit. Situation may be different, but we have either one or maybe two turns for military reform.

In that case, we better don't.

Having an outdated army is better than having no army and some half finished plans.

I mean, we don't even know if you're assumption that the reform will boost tech despite us not researching it is true.

Manget said:
Suppress Agitators Would have kept our happiness at 4.I admit that it would be unsustainable but we would only needed one turn.

Happiness needs to be above Militancy to avoid possible revolt situation. Supress Agitors with 7 militancy may as well be called "Start Revolution".

Random Member · Mar 7, 2018

You know what we need? A short, victorious war. Let's invade the Highland Kingdom!

Arbit · Mar 7, 2018

veekie said:
Absolutely yeah. You can rush reform, but the constitutional status of our martial elite is a factor here because one of the arguments was that the king has no business commanding in the field.

I.e. We'd need to spend PW to open up the officer class to soldiers over nobles. Possibly buying commissions to mollify nobles fearing the army slipping away from them

We should go a step further and get a general staff. Then we would get competent higher officers and the nobility would still have control over the military, since they are rich enough to afford the necessary education.

JevvyPython · Mar 7, 2018

[x][Agenda] Plan Cornuthaum 1808

ctulhuslp · Mar 7, 2018

10ebbor10 said:
Having an outdated army is better than having no army and some half finished plans.

What do you mean "no army"? We are not disbanding what we have to make a new one out of ether.
Worst-case, we are attacked while in the midst of reogranization, in which case....OOB and the chain of command will be a mess, but certainly manageable, and our current army is pathetic enough wrt commanding skill there won't be much difference felt.

McLuvin · Mar 7, 2018

ctulhuslp said:
What do you mean "no army"? We are not disbanding what we have to make a new one out of ether.
Worst-case, we are attacked while in the midst of reogranization, in which case....OOB and the chain of command will be a mess, but certainly manageable, and our current army is pathetic enough wrt commanding skill there won't be much difference felt.

The army would be at 5 during the Reforms.

Only one less than we entered the War with originally. So it's not too bad. And once the temp damage is gone it turns back to 7, which is one higher, except with new doctrines and tech making it better overall.

LuciDreamer · Mar 7, 2018

[x][Agenda] Plan Cornuthaum 1808

I am indepentently choosing to follow the bandwagen. Really. This is independence. :/

10ebbor10 · Mar 7, 2018

McLuvin said:
The army would be at 5 during the Reforms.

Only one less than we entered the War with originally. So it's not too bad. And once the temp damage is gone it turns back to 7, which is one higher, except with new doctrines and tech making it better overall.

You're assuming that the reform will be a single action thing. That can not be true.

We're currently at Temp Armies 4. Doing reform pushes us down 2 for several years, before the regen pushes us back to 4. Then, we need to do another reform, which pushes us back to 2 again, for several years, untill regen puts us back at 4.

And that's the minimum, assuming 1 action to invent a doctrine, and another to implement. If invention takes more time, we stay for much longer at 2.

McLuvin · Mar 7, 2018

10ebbor10 said:
You're assuming that the reform will be a single action thing. That can not be true.

We're currently at Armies 4. Doing reform pushes us down 2 for several years, before the regen pushes us back to 4. Then, we need to do another reform, which pushes us back to 2 again, for several years, untill regen puts us back at 4.

That's all temp damage dude. It resets to seven at the end of it. Temp damage is not permanent damage

10ebbor10 · Mar 7, 2018

McLuvin said:
That's all temp damage dude. It resets to seven at the end of it. Temp damage is not permanent damage

Temp damage does not reset.

Temp damage regenerates slowly, with each turn increasing to the average between current and permanent.

So, we're at 4 now => down 2 for reform => (2+7)/2 => 4

ctulhuslp · Mar 7, 2018

McLuvin said:
The army would be at 5 during the Reforms.

Only one less than we entered the War with originally. So it's not too bad. And once the temp damage is gone it turns back to 7, which is one higher, except with new doctrines and tech making it better overall.

Yeah.
Like, 1 v 1 we would still lose for now, but after the reform, even if Tortun economy recovers, we likely will be at least on the even footing.

LuciDreamer said:
[x][Agenda] Plan Cornuthaum 1808

I am indepentently choosing to follow the bandwagen. Really. This is independence. :/

That's normal for now because the situation is fairly clear-cut wrt crises, opportunities and our strengths and weaknesses.

Wait until post-Napoleonic peace starts and we fill the thread with thousands of words on merits of industrializing now versus first speeding up science, then industrializing, but doing it, thanks to SCIENCE, a bit faster. For example.

Although we've managed to not have a single threadlock so far, which I guess is remarkable?

TotallyNotEvil · Mar 7, 2018

[x][Agenda] Plan Cornuthaum 1808

10ebbor10 · Mar 7, 2018

ctulhuslp said:
Like, 1 v 1 we would still lose for now, but after the reform, even if Tortun economy recovers, we likely will be at least on the even footing.

Doubt it. Having a better doctrine does not resolve the fact that we don't have the technology. It's just facet of a wide array of military inferiority that is resolved.

Taut_Templar · Mar 7, 2018

[X] Plan Constitution
-[X] Start Constitutional Convention - 4 PW Invested (will have PW invested to make decisions during Convention phase, can spend additional PW reserved for the turn)
-[X] Claim Kyberi Territory - 1 PW, -1 Temp IC, +2 Max Development, increases required Transport Infrastructure to remove Undeveloped Hinterlands status (Note: 0 PW the first time it is used in a turn)

liberty90 · Mar 7, 2018

[X] Plan Constitution
-[X] Start Constitutional Convention - 4 PW Invested (will have PW invested to make decisions during Convention phase, can spend additional PW reserved for the turn)
-[X] Claim Kyberi Territory - 1 PW, -1 Temp IC, +2 Max Development, increases required Transport Infrastructure to remove Undeveloped Hinterlands status (Note: 0 PW the first time it is used in a turn)

I was persuaded to change my vote.

Constitution should be our priority. We need good constitution, not only barely acceptable one.

Adhoc vote count started by liberty90 on Mar 7, 2018 at 7:23 AM, finished with 1666 posts and 47 votes.

28 people have voted
[x][Agenda] Plan Cornuthaum 1808
- VoidZero
- godofsmallthings
- Citino
- RulerOfNothing
- zamin
- Vocalend
- agumentic
- ALanos
- zeusthemoose
- ctulhuslp
- The Meddler
- Arbit
- SeptimusMagisto
- 8bitBob
- Manget
- Tetsurou
- Pyro Hawk
- Shard
- Theunderbolt
- PotentialPlateau
- Umi-san
- Camry
- FriedIce
- Legion0047
- DakkaMania
- JevvyPython
- LuciDreamer
- TotallyNotEvil
7 people have voted
[X] Plan Constitution
-[X] Start Constitutional Convention - 4 PW Invested (will have PW invested to make decisions during Convention phase, can spend additional PW reserved for the turn)
-[X] Claim Kyberi Territory - 1 PW, -1 Temp IC, +2 Max Development, increases required Transport Infrastructure to remove Undeveloped Hinterlands status (Note: 0 PW the first time it is used in a turn)
- Tylonius
- Taut_Templar
- liberty90
- DocMatoi
- veekie
- Korporati
- Chrestomanci
3 people have voted
[X][Agenda] 1808 Industry
-[X][Agenda] Develop Industry
-[X][Agenda] Start Constitutional Convention
3 people have voted
[X][Agenda] 1808 Industry
2 people have voted
[X][Agenda] 1808 Rebuilding
-[X][Agenda] Develop Industry
-[X][Agenda] Claim Kyberi Territory
-[X][Agenda] Start Constitutional Convention
- Emral282
- Random Member
2 people have voted
[x][Agenda] Plan Cornuthaum 1808
-[x][Agenda] Start Constitutional Convention - 4 PW Invested (will have PW invested to make decisions during Convention phase, can spend additional PW reserved for the turn)
-[x][Agenda] Claim Kyberi Territory - 0 PW, -1 Temp IC, +2 Max Development, increases required Transport Infrastructure to remove Undeveloped Hinterlands status (Note: 0 PW the first time it is used in a turn)
-[x][Agenda] Military Reform - 2 PW, -2 Temp Armies, EITHER accelerate military research for next doctrinal set OR implement doctrine)
- Cornuthaum
- McLuvin
1 people have voted
[X][Agenda] Plan: Its Not Over, Just Halftime!
-[X][Agenda] Claim Kyberi Territory
-[X][Agenda] Start Constitutional Convention
-[X][Agenda] Military Reform
-[X][Agenda] Develop Industry
- keenscythe
1 people have voted
[x][Agenda] Plan Cornuthaum 1808
- Kiba

ctulhuslp · Mar 7, 2018

10ebbor10 said:
Doubt it. Having a better doctrine does not resolve the fact that we don't have the technology. It's just facet of a wide array of military inferiority that is resolved.

Uhhh. Actually it does matter, as here we got spanked specifically because the enemy had better strategic doctrine:

Academia Nut said:
While there was a lot of blame going around, if there was one thing Poetyr was glad of it was that he had chosen not to find a place to stand and fight like so many of his people had demanded he do. Despite the best efforts of the Qeshyks to slow down and distract the enemy, vyn Hohozyn had been able to move multiple columns along the plains all at once, moving from village to village for forage while pouncing upon disorganized groups of the army trying to link back up. Only by continually falling back had they been able to salvage as much of the northern forces as they had, the Tortun and Wyrmyn choosing to turn around and consolidate gains further west. By the time that the army was back in shape to attempt another go, the Tortun had already dispatched an offer for a peace conference among the belligerents.

Academia Nut said:
The armies they had thought massive had turned out to be simultaneously too big to control properly in comparison to the Tortun, and yet also contained far fewer quality troops. The organizational structure was antiquated, and generally everything needed top to bottom reform. What that reform might be was still an issue though.

They are better than us at strategic-scale logistics and ability to coordinate armies. It's not a matter of shiny Wunderwaffe, it's a matter of getting good quartermeisters and competent officer corps, getting administrative apparatus able to do mass conscription and then use conscripts in the army in a timely manner and so on.

I am not sure if they have rifling or whatnot, but they sure have levee en masse and likely early industrial doctrine if this is what I think it is (proto-industrial warfare aka combo of massed armies with standartized weaponry, maneuverable agile smaller units and long supply trains as opposed to living off land).

10ebbor10 · Mar 7, 2018

ctulhuslp said:
Uhhh. Actually it does matter, as here we got spanked specifically because the enemy had better strategic doctrine:

It matters, but it's not going to be enough.

10ebbor10 · Mar 7, 2018

Anyway, an analysis of the effect of our current plan :

-[x][Agenda] Start Constitutional Convention - 4 PW Invested (will have PW invested to make decisions during Convention phase, can spend additional PW reserved for the turn)
-[x][Agenda] Claim Kyberi Territory - 0 PW, -1 Temp IC, +2 Max Development, increases required Transport Infrastructure to remove Undeveloped Hinterlands status (Note: 0 PW the first time it is used in a turn)
-[x][Agenda] Military Reform - 2 PW, -2 Temp Armies, EITHER accelerate military research for next doctrinal set OR implement doctrine)

Econ
Industrial Cap 0 (Max. 3)
Development 11/20
Pollution 0

Culture
Consciousness 3 (5)
Standard of Living 4
Happiness 4/10

Research
Academies 3/3
Education 3
Innovation 2

Diplomacy
Trust 9 (7)
Espionage 7

Martial
Militancy 6 (7)
Armies 7 (2)
Navies 3

Political Will 3/10

Prestige
Min. 15
Current 54

Those are our stats at mid-turn.

Note that we'll have just 2 army for more than a year or so. At the same time, the Militancy- Happiness gap is much larger than it was when it forced us into the war.

So, the plan would put us in a terrible situation. We'd be faced with another ("Do or revolt") choice, without any meaningful force capable of withstanding that revolt. Or a foreign intervention, for that matter.

So, I hope we like whatever constitution will be forced upon us, because I'm not certain we'll get to make choice.

Prince Kyros · Mar 7, 2018

[x][Agenda] Plan Cornuthaum 1808

liberty90 · Mar 7, 2018

Cornuthaum said:
[x][Agenda] Plan Cornuthaum 1808
-[x][Agenda] Start Constitutional Convention - 4 PW Invested (will have PW invested to make decisions during Convention phase, can spend additional PW reserved for the turn)

Academia Nut said:
4 is the minimum, hence the requirement, so you probably want 6 to 8 total going into the convention.

So.
If I understand this right...
As we plan to invest minimal amount of PW possible...

It seems that we will have truly shitty constitution.
Probably with guilds written as fundamental for our nation, or something like that.

10ebbor10 · Mar 7, 2018

liberty90 said:
As we plan to invest minimal amount of PW possible...

We're not planning to invest the minimum possible. Additional investement is done by midturn actions.

That said, the Constitution will probably be shitty because the people are halfway into open revolt and the current plan will involve disbanding most of our remaining armies.

Dirtnap · Mar 7, 2018

[x][Agenda] Plan Cornuthaum 1808

Random Member · Mar 7, 2018

Doing both a military reform and the Constitutional Convention in the same turn will likely lead to problems though. Too much reform at once.

10ebbor10 · Mar 7, 2018

Add to that the fact that we're already unstable with militancy way above happiness, and it's a recipe for disaster.

ctulhuslp · Mar 7, 2018

10ebbor10 said:
We're not planning to invest the minimum possible. Additional investement is done by midturn actions.

That said, the Constitution will probably be shitty because the people are halfway into open revolt and the current plan will involve disbanding most of our remaining armies.

Where on fucking Earth did you take disbanding from?
Really, where? That's not how military reform works. At all.

Paths of Civilization II: Paths of Industrialization

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