A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

Duesal · Feb 6, 2018

Paradosi said:
Narrative is the most rare of commodities for us, this is self-evident, especially now that DP has largely given up on trying to lock us to adventurer standards back when the whole deal with the Iron Bank was in the works. In that light, it is likely we'll soon enough have more funds than we'll ever have the time to spend, simply due to the constraints of how the system works.

In short, narrative is the true currency of this quest, and most quests, really. In that light,

I don't see why negotiating with our new allies to have them handle the purchase of the horses for us at much more reasonable prices is any less beneficial to the narrative.

Anyway, @BeepSmile, would you like to consolidate with the rest of us who don't want to waste money here? There've got to be some incredible things in the Noble's Quarter here.

Paradosi · Feb 6, 2018

Duesal said:
I don't see why negotiating with our new allies to have them handle the purchase of the horses for us at much more reasonable prices is any less beneficial to the narrative.

If it was so simple, then why would DP even bother to post this whole update at all, if we can just offload all the work of procurement on House Ahjar? That said, if that is indeed the plan, will one stallion make all that much of a difference? I'd rather we have a guarantee that we can gift to Rhango.

Duesal · Feb 6, 2018

Paradosi said:
If it was so simple, then why would DP even bother to post this whole update at all, if we can just offload all the work of procurement on House Ahjar? Also, if that is indeed the plan, will one stallion make all that much of a difference? I'd rather we have a guarantee that we can gift to Rhango.

Because the thought never even occurred to Viserys IC? We can make it a goal to work towards for future negotiations.

Also, why on earth would we need a gift for Rhango at all? He and his people are alive because of us. Even the adventurer's gear we're planning on giving him should be considered too much, much less an over-priced rip-off of a horse.

Paradosi · Feb 6, 2018

Duesal said:
Because the thought never even occurred to Viserys IC? We can make it a goal to work towards for future negotiations.

Also, why on earth would we need a gift for Rhango at all? He and his people are alive because of us.

If that thought hadn't occurred to Viserys, I would question his mental faculties. It's more likely that there's more reasonable reasons for why he wouldn't want to just offload all procurement on another.

Where in the world did I say we need to do it? It's a gift, and it means our Dothraki will be all the more effective.

Paradosi · Feb 6, 2018

Seriously, in the grand scheme of things, 2540 SC is nothing to us, and the narrative benefits of 2 Ankhegs, 2 Ceru(more intelligent denizens for SD) and an Istaheq stallion as a gift for Rhango will far outweigh the initial costs.

Duesal · Feb 6, 2018

Paradosi said:
If that thought hadn't occurred to Viserys, I would question his mental faculties. It's more likely that there's more reasonable reasons for why he wouldn't want to just offload all procurement on another.

That's not how that works. Viserys' thoughts reflect the thread discussion. It wasn't in the last update because 1) DP might not have thought of it, and 2) there was no room to fit it in with all the description of the animals. It's not because there was anything stopping us from negotiating with House Ajhar to act as intermediaries for us.

Paradosi said:
Where in the world did I say we need to do it? It's a gift, and it means our Dothraki will be all the more effective.

Not at all interested. 900 IM for a horse.

Goldfish · Feb 6, 2018

Duesal said:
That's not how that works. Viserys' thoughts reflect the thread discussion. It wasn't in the last update because 1) DP might not have thought of it, and 2) there was no room to fit it in with all the description of the animals. It's not because there was anything stopping us from negotiating with House Ajhar to act as intermediaries for us.

Not at all interested. 900 IM for a horse.

1800 IM.

Duesal · Feb 6, 2018

Paradosi said:
Seriously, in the grand scheme of things, 2540 SC is nothing to us, and the narrative benefits of 2 Ankhegs, 2 Ceru(more intelligent denizens for SD) and an Istaheq stallion as a gift for Rhango will far outweigh the initial costs.

Still not interested. I'd much rather have the narrative benefit of the things we'll find in the Noble's Quarter that will be useful to us rather than a couple animals we won't even be able to use properly.

And to top it off you want to buy the Ceru, which are intelligent, which run into slavery problems.

Goldfish said:
1800 IM.

It's all kinds of no for that. That's almost twice the cost of building your own castle.

Paradosi · Feb 6, 2018

Is the lone horse that much of an issue? Why are we still operating on the pre-deal(with the Iron Bank) paradigm?

Duesal said:
And to top it off you want to buy the Ceru, which are intelligent, which run into slavery problems.

Now you're just finding problems where none exist. Should we reopen the whole dragonpen issue too?

Deliste · Feb 6, 2018

Duesal said:
I don't see why negotiating with our new allies to have them handle the purchase of the horses for us at much more reasonable prices is any less beneficial to the narrative.

Anyway, @BeepSmile, would you like to consolidate with the rest of us who don't want to waste money here? There've got to be some incredible things in the Noble's Quarter here.

He's not staying it's better for the narrative (though it is).

He's saying that updates (Narrative) are a rarer resource than IM.

So if costs us X amount of IM now or another Update+1IM in the future than the cheaper option is still to buy it now for the price stated.

Paradosi · Feb 6, 2018

Honestly, I'm surprised I even have to make the argument. How is it not obvious by now that narrative is the true commodity? DP's time is a limited resource, imaginary currency is not.

Duesal · Feb 6, 2018

Paradosi said:
Is the lone horse that much of an issue? Why are we still operating on the pre-deal(with the Iron Bank) paradigm?

Because the money can be spent on flat-out better things.

Paradosi said:
Now you're just finding problems where none exist. Should we reopen the whole dragonpen issue too?

Our dragonpens are unique in that they were built to want to serve, and we notably diplomanced Aebys. We'd be buying the Ceru. And frankly they're not that good, just interesting.

Deliste said:
He's not staying it's better for the narrative (though it is).

He's saying that updates (Narrative) are a rarer resource than IM.

So if costs us X amount of IM now or another Update+1IM in the future than the cheaper option is still to buy it now for the price stated.

Paradosi said:
Honestly, I'm surprised I even have to make the argument. How is it not obvious by now that narrative is the true commodity? DP's time is a limited resource, imaginary currency is not.

So it amounts to not being patient enough to craft a proper deal so we're not just ripped off? If the DP's time is what we're conserving, then the best option is to not buy any of the horses at all, not even negotiating with House Ajhar to get more in the future. That way we don't have to spend any more time on them and can move on to finding interesting magic items instead.

Goldfish · Feb 6, 2018

Paradosi said:
Honestly, I'm surprised I even have to make the argument. How is it not obvious by now that narrative is the true commodity? DP's time is a limited resource, imaginary currency is not.

I would rather save the imaginary currency for a return trip, rather than waste it on useless mounts. We will be coming back to this place, regularly, I hope.

A permanent residence here wouldn't be a bad use of our funds, either. Certainly better than horses we'll never use.

Our first embassy could be here in the Opaline Vault, the wealthiest and perhaps largest settlement on the entire Plane.

Duesal · Feb 6, 2018

Goldfish said:
I would rather save the imaginary currency for a return trip, rather than waste it on useless mounts. We will be coming back to this place, regularly, I hope.

A permanent residence here wouldn't be a bad use of our funds, either. Certainly better than horses we'll never use.

Our first embassy could be here in the Opaline Vault, the wealthiest and perhaps largest settlement on the entire Plane.

Yeah, the horses are very much not worth how much they're being sold for.

Deliste · Feb 6, 2018

Duesal said:
Because the money can be spent on flat-out better things.

Our dragonpens are unique in that they were built to want to serve, and we notably diplomanced Aebys. We'd be buying the Ceru. And frankly they're not that good, just interesting.

So it amounts to not being patient enough to craft a proper deal so we're not just ripped off? If the DP's time is what we're conserving, then the best option is to not buy any of the horses at all, not even negotiating with House Ajhar to get more in the future. That way we don't have to spend any more time on them and can move on to finding interesting magic items instead.

It has nothing to do with patience.

We still want the horses.

Horses have a value of Horses.

This update costs time.

The achievement of this update is buying something.

Nothing has a value of nothing.

If we buy nothing we achieve nothing.

It's very straightforward and I'm starting to feel people are being deliberately obtuse to avoid standing solely on their real argument of "I don't want horses at all."

That's a fine stance, a logical one, ignoring the realities of the quest and making out it will be easy to get these horses in the future for cheaper is not.

Paradosi · Feb 6, 2018

There is an argument to be made that House Ahjar would be able to buy Istaheq(Istaheqs?) off this asshat for far cheaper, so I'll grant them that.

[X] Plan Narrative
-[X] 2 Ceru (Male, Female) - 1180 SC
-[X] 2 Ankheg (Male, Female) - 360 SC
--[X] Mention to Waymar that you've something else entirely in mind for him, a creature straight out of legends.

Happy? The Ceru were a 96 on a d100, so I think the narrative argument is even stronger here, because there's no guarantee whatsoever that whoever we offload procurement on will have as much luck as we have.

Duesal · Feb 6, 2018

Deliste said:
This update costs time.

The achievement of this update is buying something.

Nothing has a value of nothing.

If we buy nothing we achieve nothing.

Walking away with a full purse isn't a bad thing at all. We got a good look at the local market, we found out that local Shaitan merchants are all too willing to rip outsiders off, we got Tyene to convince Waymar to hold out for something that can fly, etc. Just because we came here doesn't mean we have to buy anything.

Deliste said:
It's very straightforward and I'm starting to feel people are being deliberately obtuse to avoid standing solely on their real argument of "I don't want horses at all."

That's a fine stance, a logical one, ignoring the realities of the quest and making out it will be easy to get these horses in the future for cheaper is not.

That's only part of the argument. You're right that I don't want the horses at all, but I'm only having such a strong reaction because they're so obviously being sold for a complete rip-off and I hate it. I'd be perfectly fine working to get them at a more reasonable price. The act of having worked for that deal and accomplishing it would be more rewarding to me.

Paradosi said:
There is an argument to be made that House Ahjar would be able to buy Istaheq(Istaheqs?) off this asshat for far cheaper, so I'll grant them that.

[X] Plan Narrative
-[X] 2 Ceru (Male, Female) - 1180 SC
-[X] 2 Ankheg (Male, Female) - 360 SC
--[X] Mention to Waymar that you've something else entirely in mind for him, a creature straight out of legends.

Happy? The Ceru were a 96 on a d100, so I think the narrative argument is even stronger here, because there's no guarantee whatsoever that whoever we offload procurement on will have as much luck as we have.

Sorry @Paradosi, the Ceru just look completely unimpressive to me overall. I don't think they deserved to be on a near-crit for the encounter table.

Paradosi · Feb 6, 2018

Duesal said:
Sorry @Paradosi, the Ceru just look completely unimpressive to me overall. I don't think they deserved to be on a near-crit for the encounter table.

I legitimately do not think that DP would just offer it if there wasn't a hidden caveat to it, besides the obvious narrative benefits of all the more intelligent denizens out and about SD. Even if by some absurdity that DP did indeed put the Ceru as is, without any hidden caveats that would justify the 96 on d100, than is 1180 SC not worth more intelligent denizens that could add to the grandeur of SD?

Think of it as an investment for the future, where IM or glass or whatever will start to be worth less and less as we grow more and more powerful.

Goldfish · Feb 6, 2018

Paradosi said:
I legitimately do not think that DP would just offer it if there wasn't a hidden caveat to it, besides the obvious narrative benefits of all the more intelligent denizens out and about SD. Even if by some absurdity that DP did indeed put the Ceru as is, without any hidden caveats that would justify the 96 on d100, than is 1180 SC not worth more intelligent denizens that could add to the grandeur of SD?

Think of it as an investment for the future, where IM or glass or whatever will start to be worth less and less as we grow more and more powerful.

d100 loot rolls don't necessarily get better the higher the number goes, they often merely represent a range of possible rewards; ex 2-5%, 6-10%, 11-15%, etc, etc, etc, 94-99%, with 1 being a crit fail and 100 being a crit success.

A 96 doesn't automatically mean amazing.

Trickster314 · Feb 6, 2018

Paradosi said:
I legitimately do not think that DP would just offer it if there wasn't a hidden caveat to it, besides the obvious narrative benefits of all the more intelligent denizens out and about SD. Even if by some absurdity that DP did indeed put the Ceru as is, without any hidden caveats that would justify the 96 on d100, than is 1180 SC not worth more intelligent denizens we could add to SD?

Think of it as an investment for the future, where IM or glass or whatever will start to be worth less and less as we grow more and more powerful.

[X] Goldfish

There's a much better way to invest that money right in front of us, we can spend that glass-steel on buying trade goods to bring back to PM and sell that off for more funds. Funds that lets us accomplish things such as equipping our adventurers, building our construction projects, running our realm and meeting our obligations. At this point, our wealth is a driver of the "narrative" in this quest (was even used to develop our mothers character), without it we couldn't run our kingdom, aid the nightswatch, and do half of what makes this quest interesting (at least to me and probably some others).

Also, I find your insistence on the animals somehow being a huge part of a "narrative" to be somewhat ignoring the fact that some of our other exotic animals (fear lizards, dinosaur, other stuff) have been mentioned what twice after being introduced? The only things that have had "narrative" impacts have been the dragon pens. Not to mention the lack of importance familiars have had in this quest, we're effectively going to be paying 1/6 of our liquid cash for something that will probably get forgotten about once we leave.

At the end of the day, a narrative is created by what we as players choose to do, not just selecting all the options that DP gives us for fear we miss out on something. Choosing to not do anything or in this case buy anything is just as narratively valid as what you are suggesting.

Paradosi · Feb 6, 2018

The Ceru are intelligent, hardly to be dismissed as just "exotic animals"(unless you go with a definition that includes just about everyone).

Also, as to the point about narrative, did you honestly just miss all those posts by Deliste? Is the narrative argument truly so difficult to understand?

Paradosi · Feb 6, 2018

Goldfish said:
d100 loot rolls don't necessarily get better the higher the number goes, they often merely represent a range of possible rewards; ex 2-5%, 6-10%, 11-15%, etc, etc, etc, 94-99%, with 1 being a crit fail and 100 being a crit success.

A 96 doesn't automatically mean amazing.

Did DP himself not specifically say it was a crit?

DragonParadox said:
OOC: Odd that you crit (96 on a d100) on the familiar roll and not the mount, but I'm sure you guys do not mind the luck altering mini-elephant.

Duesal · Feb 6, 2018

Paradosi said:
The Ceru are intelligent, hardly to be dismissed as just "exotic animals"(unless you go with a definition that includes just about everyone).

Also, as to the point about narrative, did you honestly just miss all those posts by Deliste? Is the narrative argument truly so difficult to understand?

There's also the fact that trying to argue for the narrative value simple has no effect on some of us when those resources could be better spent elsewhere on things we'll regularly use instead of a couple animals that get maybe a few mentions every hundred or so updates.

Trickster314 · Feb 6, 2018

Paradosi said:
The Ceru are intelligent, hardly to be dismissed as just "exotic animals"(unless you go with a definition that includes just about everyone).

Also, as to the point about narrative, did you honestly just miss all those posts by Deliste? Is the narrative argument truly so difficult to understand?

So what if they are intelligent? Most of the people we meet are intelligent, it doesn't make them any more valuable then if they were not.

What we're being presented with is basically a plot hook, people like goldfish and I are saying that frankly, the cost is way too high for this kind of plot hook. It's not as if this plot hook isn't going to be replaced by other plot hooks in the future. Sure we miss this opportunity but its not as if we won't get other similar ones in the future and in a constantly evolving quest like this it doesn't matter in the long run (each choice we ever made could be seen as a missed opportunity, what if we didn't choose Viserys at the start?).

As for the argument about time, we get like 4 updates a day on average, I think we can survive with one not accomplishing anything (but hey that's just me).

Goldfish · Feb 6, 2018

Paradosi said:
The Ceru are intelligent, hardly to be dismissed as just "exotic animals"(unless you go with a definition that includes just about everyone).

Also, as to the point about narrative, did you honestly just miss all those posts by Deliste? Is the narrative argument truly so difficult to understand?

Yes, they are sentient NG beings. If we purchase them, they will be immediately freed once we get back to SD, without a doubt.

Maybe they'll be grateful and wish to help us, or maybe they'll want nothing to do with humanoids and wish to be left to their own devices?

I am against wasting money on animals of little practical use, which somehow fits your preferred narrative, and I'm even more opposed to buying sentient beings I already know we are going to turn loose. My idea of a good narrative is driven by a character that makes smart decisions, not one that flits from one shiny to the next, wasting resources "just because".

A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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