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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Twelve)

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Man, what's with all the unmarked Worm spoilers in this thread? Are we just assuming everyone on SV has read it by now?

Kerrus said:
Blue Lantern losing his information of Earth 16 means that either he was missing it from the start (which is damn odd) or main timeline Paul is 'special' and there's some kind of defenses up.
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It's also possible that it has something to do with the existence of an evil YJ team there.

I vaguely recall Zoat saying something about how that wasn't exactly the world from CoTE, just one heavily inspired by it - I can't recall why, some deviation from the canon story. Jon, maybe? Anyway, that would be a decent excuse.
Gundor Gepein said:
... Did Ambush Bug follow Paul's ring-transition from Antarctica to Happy Harbor in an instant?

Or is Paul carrying the Lantern on the Bioship now?
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Ambush Bug just teleported an equatorial beach to the pole and back. Yes, he followed the ship.


PostwarGryphon said:
YOU ZAPPED HIM WHILE HE WAS CONNECTED TO THE OHPIDIAN!!!!!
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I wonder if having the Ophidian blink out of existence would have any effect on the broader structure of the universe?
Ragnar said:
Unless Para!Paul actually gets something out of this arc- the memories of the show for instance- then it's just another timewaster.
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Any plot that doesn't result in a powerup is a waste? Man, you must just hate comics.
mrttao said:
[Worm] powers are not just calculators but also extremely good sensors. And the only reason so far someone gave for why a power ring will foil said scanning was the false claim that power rings are magic
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... or because they're made of an exotic material the Agent doesn't understand, like crystallized emotion or Super Guardian Solid-State Technology or whatever a ring is made of in your headcanon.

I do doubt he would be entirely immune to prediction, given the plethora of different powers in Worm and the explicit ability of many precogs to "model" scenarios they don't fully understand, but there's no reason to assume Contessa or Scion or the Simurgh would immediately receive a notification saying "new target!"
kfrar said:
Coil'd be particularly fucked over by that - his power would perform its two simulations, Coil would pick one, and then at some point the actions Coil's shard directed his body would take would cease to reflect the simulation they were based on. Not sure exactly how he or his shard would respond to that, but it'd probably suck for'em.
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WoG is that Dinah's power messes with his, so presumably it fails pretty gracefully.
kfrar said:
Her power runs on physical simulations, and lantern rings are powered by magic. The entities don't know shit about magic since it isn't native to the Wormverse, so any shards they produced would presumably be unable to simulate magical effects.
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  1. There's no real reason to assume that there's no magic in the Wormverse. Early drafts of Worm left it ambiguous whether powers were being granted by magic or aliens, and Wildbow famously didn't have a problem with the idea of Pact being somewhere in a far-flung corner of the Worm multiverse.
  2. The PtV shard doesn't run on "run on physical simulations". It uses them, in a fairly sparing and lossy manner, but it also uses higher-level and more abstract simulations, as well as what a human might term long-term intelligence.
  3. Magic is far simpler than physics. Even if it's a surprise, since manifested, it becomes easy to predict.
GardenerBriareus said:
Once again: vanilla Worm is not capable of telling any story other than the one Wildbow decided he wanted told, because he's stuffed it full of DRM and other countermeasures in the form of Jack Slash, Contessa, Cauldron, the Endbringers, and Zion.
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I really disagree with this. It's not that those things force stories to become Worm; many, if not all of them are challenges that the characters overcome over the course of Worm. Rather, Worm is a setting that scales well, so there are challenges at every level.

Mr Zoat said:
My idea was that he'd spend his time killing the most out of control supervillains and stabilising society. He'd probably start in Africa due to the lack of anyone to get in the way politically. By the time he turned his attention elsewhere he'd have a generation of Africans looking up to him for killing the warlords, sorting out food, water and sanitation and giving their superhumans a better example to follow.
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That's actually a pretty good plan. Assuming you're willing to wait a generation and fight all comers on an entire continent, of course.
 
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MugaSofer said:
Man, what's with all the unmarked Worm spoilers in this thread? Are we just assuming everyone on SV has read it by now?
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Something like half the quests are worm fanfics. there isn't much left to spoil.
I really don't understand why it is such a popular setting
Or worse,all the ones where you play as taylor hebert make me wonder why she is such a popular character to play as in quests
 
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mrttao said:
As I understood it, the reason why even the least effect ward possible can block the rings is because they are NOT magic rings. And the technology they use is ineffective against magic


Check your premises. You are assuming that power rings block entity scanning
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Mr Zoat said:
"Wallace, any sufficiently well understood magic is indistinguishable from technology. I don't understand how those things happened. The way Doctor Roquette's nanobots work defies everything I thought I knew about the way matter works, but you don't see me complaining about it. I mean, look at this ring."

I wave my left palm at him. He isn't having it.

"A power ring is super advanced Guardian technology."

"Don't ever let the Controllers hear you call it that. Maltusian technology, thank you very much. And you're trying to make a distinction where no distinction exists. The Controllers understand the forces which ignorant magic users -ur, no offence Mister Nelson-"

He waves it off with a smile. "None taken."

"-manipulate through spell and ritual, in the same way that you understand radio waves. And they use that understanding to build thing like this." I tap the ring with my right forefinger. "The way I think determines the strength of my constructs, but doesn't affect the power drain. Where's the power coming from?"
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In any case, it seems safe enough to assume that Wildbow didn't endow the Wormverse with DC's emotional light spectrum, which is what the ring uses to do shit. Thus, OCP for precogs etc. etc.
As for PTV's precise mechanics, while it would be able to adapt as Contessa began overlaying her own personal models over Paul, until she or her shard knew to do that he wouldn't be simulated properly by any physical or abstract simulations because the latter ones wouldn't know what or how he was going to do.
 
kfrar said:
In any case
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There are a few problems here
1. This is the AU's interpretation not how power rings actually work in canon. I am pretty sure in canon they are not magical.

2. This is actually a longstanding plot hole in the AU, considering just how ineffectual the ring has been in regards to magic interaction.

3. This actually supports my argument not yours. Saying that magic is a form of scientific law that ignorant people manipulate through ritual while advanced scientific societies manipulate it scientifically.

well, guess what the shards are, they are sufficiently advanced tech. And literally all the effects they cause are indistinguishable from magic. (a man transforming into a dragon? predicting the future? energy from nothing? everything related to the fairy queen? etc).
So both the shards and the ring are sufficiently advanced science, and the shards are far more advanced in many different fields, that it is really presumptuous to claim that the ring is flat out superior and uses laws of physics that the entities are clueless about.
 
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mrttao said:
There are a few problems here
1. This is the AU's interpretation not how power rings actually work in canon. I am pretty sure in canon they are not magical.

2. This is actually a longstanding plot hole in the AU, considering just how ineffectual the ring has been in regards to magic interaction.

3. This actually supports my argument not yours. Saying that magic is a form of scientific law that ignorant people manipulate through ritual while advanced scientific societies manipulate it scientifically.

well, guess what the shards are, they are sufficiently advanced tech. And literally all the effects they cause are indistinguishable from magic. (a man transforming into a dragon? predicting the future? energy from nothing? everything related to the fairy queen? etc).
So both the shards and the ring are sufficiently advanced science, and the shards are far more advanced in many different fields, that it is really presumptuous to claim that the ring is flat out superior and uses laws of physics that the entities are clueless about.
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For 1, I am talking about a Paul, so it really doesn't matter in this case.

For 3, first of all, the ring was described as sufficiently analyzed magic, not sufficiently advanced technology, so I'm not sure why you're equating it and the shards in this context. The ring does happen to also be an advanced piece of technology, but every advanced piece of technology isn't going to be magic-based. Second, shards are a sufficiently advanced tech in a world without the magic the rings run off of, and without any magic the entities have ever been shown to access. It seems a bit silly to assume that a particular advanced piece of technology constructed in a mundane environment will just so happen to be able to predict the effects of an arbitrary extrauniversal magic object using magical forces (the EL spectrum) that are undeniably foreign to its current universe or, for that matter, that it would even be able to detect magical forces it's never been exposed to at all. They'd be able to see the physically manifested constructs post-construction, sure, but there's no reason to expect they'd be able to predict the ring's emotional manipulation and spontaneous construct creation. Given enough time to gather data on Paul and his ring - perhaps a number of comparisons from brain scans to manifested ring effects and measurements of average changes in brain state corresponding to ring exposure? and they would have some capacity to adapt, but that would take time and effort, and as long as Paul didn't put himself on any such entity's radar they would be unlikely to invest the time in him.

Whew. That's more than enough Worm talk for now.

EDIT: Not going to clutter up the thread any more, but there's two more things I've gotta say:
1. The lantern's powers could work in a non-DC verse either by drawing charge from it's home multiverse or by running off of its internal EL charge, neither of which requires Wildbow to have made the EL spectrum canon in his universe.
2. A freeze ray is sufficiently advanced technology which is not described as magical. The point was that highly advanced technology needn't necessarily use magic, and there's no reason to assume that a particular piece of sufficiently advanced shard technology has any relation to magic just because the sufficiently advanced ring technology is based off of well-analyzed magic.
 
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kfrar said:
For 1, I am talking about a Paul, so it really doesn't matter in this case.
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Well, I was talking about canon. And I have no idea what bob was talking about.

However, I am willing to also discuss things entirely within the scope of the AU with you instead, since that is what you prefer. So, getting down to brass tacks
kfrar said:
For 3, first of all, the ring was described as sufficiently analyzed magic, not sufficiently advanced technology, so I'm not sure why you're equating it and the shards in this context.
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They are the same thing. That is the point paul was making
That when sufficiently advanced/analyzed tech and magic are the same thing.\
Which is still a plot hole in how some primitive cargo cultists manage to, through ritual, thwart or outperform a power ring
kfrar said:
Second, shards are a sufficiently advanced tech in a world without the magic the rings run off of
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If that was true then the ring would cease working the moment it entered the worm verse. Since it lacks the laws of physics (magic) that it depends on for operation.
If the ring works then by definition the laws of physics that their magic is based on exists in worm verse.
Every other argument you make basically depends on this premise, which is inherently self contradictory.
 
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Jetsmillion said:
Next thing the rest of the team sees is Ambush Bug running away screaming "Not as planned! Not as planned!" as a very unhappy giant orange snake chases after him.
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Deadpool Ambush Bug doesn't plan, he takes an idea and then improvises like hell. Enemies can't predict him because even Deadpool Ambush Bug doesn't fully understand what he's doing.

HeathLedger-Joker: "Do I look like a man with a plan? No, I like to take other people's plans and turn them on their heads."

Link: Assimilation Backfire - TV Tropes

I had the mental image of Ambush Bug tricking OL or Ophidian into assimilating him so he can "poison" them with his meta-awareness, revealing himself as a Trickster Mentor trying to get OL to acknowledge his nature as a self-insert.

"Those are real fictional people in real fictional danger!"
[quote from 'Fairly Oddparents']

P.S. How one perceives reality and fiction is the domain of Dream of the Endless, so it'd be cool if Ambush Bug's meta-awareness somehow came from Dream (or any of the Endless).
 
Wonder how heroes, villains and/or the people of YJ would react if they had proof they were fictional characters?

How good or bad would it be?
 
kfrar said:
Second, shards are a sufficiently advanced tech in a world without the magic the rings run off of, and without any magic the entities have ever been shown to access.
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This is not accurate - Scion is shown in one of his interludes as briefly contemplating a visit to the Pact universe before deciding against it. That doesn't necessarily mean that the Entities have run into power rings before in any given crossover, but it does mean that they'd have some context for the shards to start from. There's also a couple of other ways that accurate precog might happen on the backend which the entities are explicitly capable of, but that would be a huge digression.

E: The first part of this was incorrect. I apologize for my error. That said, the second part is still true to the best of my knowledge.
 
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HVulpes said:
Wonder how heroes, villains and/or the people of YJ would react if they had proof they were fictional characters?

How good or bad would it be?
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Well, on one hand there might be an identity crisis about not being real. On the other hand, Good does tend to win in stories. Though we already do have an example with Constantine in WTR.

This makes me think though. Can you imagine Owlman's reaction to that? The internal one since I am pretty sure he would just remain stoic to outside observers.
 
Grek said:
This is not accurate - Scion is shown in one of his interludes as briefly contemplating a visit to the Pact universe before deciding against it.
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...Are you sure? I just reread Scion's and Eden's interludes and didn't see anything about that, and while I may just be blind I was under the impression that the idea that Pact and Worm could be in the same multiverse came about from one of Wildbow's trolling Mathematician's answer WOGs.
 
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