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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Twelve)

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KronusGear said:
These people aided and abetted an enemy of their nation, who was responsible for the deaths of many of their countrymen and mass destruction of peoples property. Even if Grayven ran campaigns showcasing what they did and calling for consequences for their actions, that doesn't change the fact that if they didn't let a mass murdering terrorist walk free then there would be no issue.

Grayven did not threaten them or force them do do anything they killed themselves because the outcry over their actions was so massive they felt they had no other choice, if they didn't want such a backlash then they shouldn't have done something the public found so reprehensible in the first place.
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These people attempted to do their jobs. Poorly, and failed, but presumably attempted to do their jobs or what they felt was the right course of action. Their failure meant they didn't deserve to stay in office, or perhaps imprisoned if laws had been broken. They didn't deserve to be driven to suicide.

Grayven drove them to suicide. He was happy about this. He wanted to do more of that. All three of these statements are based on the facts of his headspace and the events he caused as shown in the story. It's very binary if you think that's a good thing for a character to do or not.

"They shouldn't have made him drive them to suicide" is extremely...dubious logic given that you can justify any retaliation, no matter how vile, with that logic.
 
Ugolino said:
These people attempted to do their jobs. Poorly, and failed, but presumably attempted to do their jobs or what they felt was the right course of action. Their failure meant they didn't deserve to stay in office, or perhaps imprisoned if laws had been broken. They didn't deserve to be driven to suicide.

Grayven drove them to suicide. He was happy about this. He wanted to do more of that. All three of these statements are based on the facts of his headspace and the events he caused as shown in the story. It's very binary if you think that's a good thing for a character to do or not.

"They shouldn't have made him drive them to suicide" is extremely...dubious logic given that you can justify any retaliation, no matter how vile, with that logic.
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However we don't have enough insight into Grayven's thought processes now that he has managed to at least partially reverse the mental transformation he was undergoing to judge whether he feels guilt for doing it. For all we know he could be feeling guilt but is repressing it at the moment.
 
Mr Zoat said:
Which episode? He can transition sufficiently large vehicles with the armour inside it, it's touching the armour directly he can't do.
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Ah, in that case never mind since Kon was in the invisible jet at the time.

Does that mean that it is now a reasonable tactic to subspace a truck so he can transition with Nth metal? Just put it in the truck and go.
 
KronusGear said:
These people aided and abetted an enemy of their nation, who was responsible for the deaths of many of their countrymen and mass destruction of peoples property. Even if Grayven ran campaigns showcasing what they did and calling for consequences for their actions, that doesn't change the fact that if they didn't let a mass murdering terrorist walk free then there would be no issue.

Grayven did not threaten them or force them do do anything they killed themselves because the outcry over their actions was so massive they felt they had no other choice, if they didn't want such a backlash then they shouldn't have done something the public found so reprehensible in the first place.
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Ugolino said:
These people attempted to do their jobs. Poorly, and failed, but presumably attempted to do their jobs or what they felt was the right course of action. Their failure meant they didn't deserve to stay in office, or perhaps imprisoned if laws had been broken. They didn't deserve to be driven to suicide.

Grayven drove them to suicide. He was happy about this. He wanted to do more of that. All three of these statements are based on the facts of his headspace and the events he caused as shown in the story. It's very binary if you think that's a good thing for a character to do or not.

"They shouldn't have made him drive them to suicide" is extremely...dubious logic given that you can justify any retaliation, no matter how vile, with that logic.
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guys, please, we have had this argument like 10 times and no one has changed there mind any time. do we need another morality thread on SV?
 
Mr Zoat said:
Mister Tawny bites into what's left of this morning's hunt: a Thentulian Reaper. Nasty blighter, but not up to a fight with a God-Tiger. He and the Sphere both opted to come with me after the 'divorce', him out of loyalty and the Sphere to keep an eye on me.
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I had wondered about Mr. Tawny. How's his godhood progressing?
Mr Zoat said:
To be honest, I doubt that I'll be doing anything particularly interesting for a month or two.
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Somewhat surprised he isn't going to get another power source for his Orange ring.
Mr Zoat said:
Luthor is almost certainly com-." Okay, that's a bit annoying. "Compatible, but I'm not sure he'd be interested."
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I originally wondered how 'Paul' was in that word.
Mr Zoat said:
Martian technology...

Um...

...


LOOK, SQUIRREL!
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This is why I preferred the 'prohibitively avarice intensive' explanation.
 
Ah, so he's now in with the Light.
While he's supposed to be a double agent I'm curious if his input will make the Light even more dangerious.

"What do you mean they no longer are committing crimes?"
"Oh! They're still committing crimes its just that it's more in the realm of tax evasion and white collar corporate shenanigans."
"Dammit Grayven!"
"I'm sorry Bruce but I it was just so stupid!"
 
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query said:
Ah, so he's now in with the Light.
While he's supposed to be a double agent I'm curious if his input will make the Light even more dangerious.

"What do you mean they no longer are committing crimes?"
"Oh! They're still committing crimes its just that it's more in the realm of tax evasion and white collar corporate shenanigans."
"Dammit Grayven!"
"I'm sorry Bruce but I it was just so stupid!"
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Knightfall said:
Grayven continues to be badass.

No according to Hank McCoy Mutantkind's greatest enemy? Canada, apparently.
--Henry McCoy (Earth-616)
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He apparently forgot all the Marvel US government did to "help" mutants and all of the alternate timelines were mutants got screwed by the US. Oh and how Genosha pretended to be mutant friendly only to slave mutants.

And the whole Civil War were Canada was the place those heroes who did not want to be forcefully conscripted or end in Negative zone GULAG went to be safe.
 
Masked Thespian said:
Is that the right word? If it is, I'm unfamiliar with that usage, but I can't really think of any other similarly-spelt word that would fit the context, other than possibly trail, but even that doesn't really seem to fit.
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'Train' is used to describe an aiming action involving a weapon*, which a Power Ring certainly is; whether or not Mr Zoat meant for that definition to apply I don't know.

*Edit: well, and other things like a camera or microphone etc, so; aim or focus in general.
 
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KronusGear said:
And as for not feeling any sympathy for them, why should he? These people let a mass murdering terrorist walk away free after killing thousands of people and causing hundreds of millions of dollars of property damage.
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Except that actual diplomats are allowed to get away with serious crimes in real life, because this is part of the diplomatic framework that allows countries to do business, and is enshrined in international law.

The USA could maybe get away with executing the visiting ambassador of another country, who packed considerable political importance personally to boot, because they're the United States of Goddamn America and they've got the biggatons. But it would cost them untold political capital. Anyone who seriously suggested doing that for real would almost certainly lose their job, but they would never suggest that, because that would be idiotic.

How is this so hard to understand?

Can you imagine if the US government had captured Osama Bin Laden in the wake of 9/11 and then just let him walk away because they didn't want to annoy a foreign government. The outcry would have been immense.
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It's funny you should choose that particular example.

Are you aware that the US government actually evacuated dozens of members of Bin Laden's family during the no-fly period after 9/11? Like, in the real world? They weren't even diplomats, the Saudi government just requested it because they were politically important and they were afraid they might get lynched. That was an actual thing that happened.

But no, tell me again, how everyone involved in this travesty of following proper procedure comicbook logic absolutely need to die because reasons. Sure.
 
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MugaSofer said:
Except that actual diplomats are allowed to get away with serious crimes in real life, because this is part of the diplomatic framework that allows countries to do business, and is enshrined in international law.
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"Serious crime" does not mean terrorist attack that results in mass death and destruction. Any diplomat that did that would either be disowned by their nation or it would be seen as an act of war. No nation on earth would let someone who killed thousands of their citizens walk away free.

MugaSofer said:
It's funny you should choose that particular example.

Are you aware that the US government actually evacuated dozens of members of Bin Laden's family during the no-fly period after 9/11? Like, in the real world? They weren't even diplomats, the Saudi government just requested it because they were politically important and they were afraid they might get lynched. That was an actual thing that happened.

But no, tell me again, how everyone involved in this travesty of following proper procedure comicbook logic absolutely need to die because reasons. Sure.
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Evacuated family members, not Bin Laden himself. There is a big difference between evacuating those only vaguely related to an attack and freeing one of the people directly responsible.
 
MugaSofer said:
Except that actual diplomats are allowed to get away with serious crimes in real life, because this is part of the diplomatic framework that allows countries to do business, and is enshrined in international law.
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Except this is the kind of that thing would, at best, be considered an act of war, and lead to the country who the diplomat belongs to being disavowed and hocked out of the embassy so fast he'd get whiplash.

And before you try to say he's the only one in charge, well, news flash kids, then that means the country just declared war on the US. And that's a bad thing.
 
aabbcc said:
I don't get this. Why would someone going around murdering people be considered a governmental matter?
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When it's a government agent killing government officials guilty of horrendous crimes, that's closer to civil war territory than conventional crime. The kind of morally ambiguous, "it's only an internal matter" thing the JL tends to steer clear of.

Angelform said:
He pointed Manchester Black in their direction. That tends to be a fairly permanent solution to most problems.
Or if you mean the other OL it is simply an issue of priorities. He regards the suffering of one little girl that he knows as more important than a corrupt government.
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I meant OL - Greyven is only secondarily an Orange Lantern now. And as I recall, he isn't actually aware of just how horrendous certain of the upper echelons of the British Government actually are.
 
@Ugolino, while you are entitled to your opinion, you should have realized during the multiple debates back on Spacebattles that you represent a distinct minority, and since I don't recall anybody changing their stance on the topic the first six times it came up, I don't expect it to happen now or anytime in the future.

So while it's completely up to you if you wish to boycott/ignore anything involving Grayven, the rest of us are not obligated to agree with you or follow your lead. Ranting about it just leads to people putting you on ignore.
 
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