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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Twelve)
- Thread starter Mr Zoat
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I'm going to go out on a limb and say that is an EU fact that some poor writer had to dredge up to explain Lucas' weird crap some 20 years after the fact.
I hate it when people say that.From what I can tell, you hate most things.
It's not my fault some people can't see how full of love and passion I am. I think it's my often bored, exasperated exterior.
Rogue One actually. One of the chief engineers for the Death Star was a rebel sympathizer, and managed to ensure that a critical flaw was put in, then warned the rebels about it.
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As Gore17 said, the defenders are dropping even from near misses
You recall correctly
Er, so you're just going to ignore that Zatanna was being taught magic by Dr. Fate in Season 2, implying pretty fucking heavily than Zatanna and Fate (and, hence, presumably Zatara and Nabu) had reached some sort of detente by that point?
Not really. Don't get me wrong; he's the author, it's completely up to him how much canon he wants to follow, but you can't play the "It's not his fault; he was just blindly following canon!" card: there were key aspects of the Nabu storyline that were twisted to make things worse than canon.
Off the top of my head:
- Canon: Kent Nelson never looked for another host for Nabu, and just planned on letting him be imprisoned indefinitely. WTR: He looked for another host up to his death, and just couldn't find one.
- Canon: The Team twice used Nabu as a weapon of last resort; each time, they knew that the price for his help was to be kept as a host, but each time, he let them go free. The third time, he finally made them pay the price. WTR: The Team only got one warning.
- Canon: Zatanna's reaction while watching the news conference that Dr. Fate had joined the League was just to look slightly sad and keep watching. She clearly knew in advance (which isn't surprising, since there was a month gap between the League's decision and its announcement). WTR: The League deliberately sandbagged her, and she had no clue what was going to happen until it was announced.
In canon: Batman made sure that Zatanna's affairs were put in order, and offered to have her come live with him. She thought that moving in with a new family would be too much like giving up on her father, and wanted to keep Zatara as her legal guardian and move into the Cave with the Team. Batman agreed, on the condition that she treat him, Black Canary and Red Tornado as surrogate parents until Zatara was recovered. She moved into the room next to M'gann, and zeta-beamed back to New York for school for the rest of the semester, then transferred to Happy Harbor, so she was going to school with the rest of the Team as well as living with them.
Personally, the meeting I'm looking forward to is with Zatara. My recollection from the last time they talked is that (a) Giovanni honestly wasn't thrilled with what Paul did, and (b) it's implied that a lot of the problems with the situation were caused by Zatara being a Good Soldier (but a bad parent), in that he figured that Zatanna was doing just fine without him and never tried to get Nabu to let him contact her. I'd be curious to see if/how his feelings have changed.
If there's anyone that has the right to tell Paul that he fucked up and the cost wasn't worth it, it has to be the guy he was trying to save.
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XkaliburRage
Perpetual Procrastinator
IIRC he was looking for one when we were first introduced to him in the show, so I'm not sure where you got this from?
Actually, this seems to be part of the issue: Paul is acting as an Orange Lantern, caring about it so much because of how Zatanna was affected. Because of this, the argument might be about whether or not Zatara's obligation to Zatanna overrides his right to say "this is not am acceptable price for my freedom."
You do not RC. In the show, he was looking for a legitimate medium who could do a seance for him, because he missed his dead wife.
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Or he asked after mediums in order to find a magic user who could wear the helm. I mean, he could probably call her back himself if that was what he really wanted.
Hestia&theCourt
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Probably wrong. He was likely looking for a host when he got abducted, unless you think that the guy who explicitly said that Inza would have kicked his tail over spending money on Xanadu was actually there to try to speak with Inza. I can't think of any other reason why he'd have been poking around there; if Xanadu was actually doing something morally questionable, you'd think he'd have said something about that since he was taking a super direct approach.
Also wrong. The initial fight against Klarion, they had no idea that Nabu had any inclination to keep bodies permanently until after Wally put on the Helmet. They knew he was kind of clingy because of Kent, but that's as far as their knowledge went. I don't count that as a warning when it comes off as Nabu playing by rules he never explained to the participants until after they had already violated them. They got one warning total. And yes, I'll admit the Team did use Nabu as a last resort situation and failed to look for a new host as they said they would, but threatening to take and keep their bodies is simply not okay, no matter how badly those people treated Nabu or whether they "agreed" to it because the alternative was a planetary disaster. Which brings into question whether those "warnings" were actually just extortion, because it's not like it's an in-borne condition of wearing the Helmet. This was just Nabu deciding this was a thing, now, demanding a "price" far out of proportion to the services rendered.
You may have a point here, but that may also have been a butterfly based on Paul bringing Zatanna to a war conference shortly afterwards. Zatanna being sad instead of angry may have also been her not wanting to seem unstable in front of the Team or something; frankly, the writers should have made that far more clear if they wanted Zatanna to be learning to move on. As it is, they did nothing with that: no scenes with Zatanna reflexively trying to punch Batman in the face because he told her that Fate was joining the League, no scenes with Zatanna ranting at Canary about the unfairness of it all until she breaks down and cries, no heart-to-hearts with the Team, even! Just a hand on a shoulder from Robin and one very brief sad look. It's no surprise to me that with the vagueness of canon, Zoat's read on that scene is that the League went super hands-off for some bizarre reason, because did you see anything about that anywhere in the show? It gets more neglectful the more you look at it, barring the comics which I'll address in the next point.
In the comics, yes, you are correct, but no TV show should ever force their readers to read supplementary comics for crucial character development like this. Based purely on the show, nobody talked about this to Zatanna at all on-screen. Based purely on the show, the League didn't discuss this with Zatanna, either to say "hang in there, we're working on separating them" or to say "How can we help you learn to deal with this". Nothing. Either the League failed or the writers did, and either way I'm mad. If Bats, Canary, and Tornado were supposed to be supplementary parents, then either they went way too hands-off or they were never showed doing so on-screen, and if the entire premise of your fic is to highlight the insanity of the decisions made in-show, then what else can you do except take what they showed on-screen at face value (neglect for Zatanna's emotional needs) and extrapolate from there (neglect of Zatanna's physical needs)?
In conclusion, the writers horribly botched this scenario, but based purely on what we see on-screen, so did the League, because there is a distinct lack of direct scenes telling us how the League is handling this with Zatanna. Consequently, I consider Zoat's take on Nabu and the League's reaction to him to be closer to what canon actually is than a more benevolent interpretation that may have been what was actually meant by the writers. If they didn't want canon to seem like that, maybe they should have explored this more instead of faffing about with episodes like Secret that did nothing for the plot and introducing Rocket for the sole purpose of avoiding "Previously on Young Justice".
Prince Charon
Just zis guy, you know?
While I did kind of like 'Secret,' (which I believe was originally intended to be broadcast on or closer to Hallowe'en), if they had done an episode with important character development instead, and put 'Secret' in the comic tie-in, that would likely have been better.
Also, I find it kind of jarring that people (or maybe just Tesuji?) don't think Kent was looking for a new host for Nabu, because that was exactly the impression that episode gave me when I first saw it, well before reading this fanfic.
DBDrake
Totaly A Dragon
That's a good explanation.
It occurs to me, in addition to the aforementioned values difference, Superman rationalizing killing for ANY reason is extremely dangerous.
I don't usually go in for slippery slope arguments, but a superman that feels comfortable with murder is basically unstoppable.
Anecdote time! All the men in my family for as many generations as we know about have ALL died of drinking related causes. Heart attacks, liver failure, killed in fights, etc.
So I have a hard rule: I will only ever drink 1 drink, being one beer, one glass of wine, one cocktail containing no more than the equivalent of 2 o/z 80 proof liquor.
This rule is not a rational rule, because you can reason yourself out of those. It is an axiom. I don't think about it, I don't explain why. I just will never ever have more than one drink.
If I was in his position, I would also probably have an axiomatic rule about killing. If I'm super man, I know that it is extremely unlikely I will slide down the slippery slope re: murder; but my fear of the it would STILL lead me to the axiom.
In my reading of Kal's character, his objections to Paul Killing Nabu is (subconsciously?) coming less from the act itself, and more from the violation of his axiom from someone at or near his level of power.
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Been reading over some of the old arcs for fun, and I gotta say it (again, if I already have) but I really love how armor actually means something in this work. "Armor is useless" Is a trope that utterly infuriates me. I've been trying to get into Warhammer 40,000 a bit (Lore, Novels and video games. I...just can't do table top) after having watched several videos of Totalbiscuit after his passing (Never really watched him before) and it looked really interesting.
Then I watched a trailer for a game, can't remember which, where an entire company of pretty damn massive power armored marines were utterly wiped by a couple of little "nimble" elf-y thingies with blades on their wrists. All I could think was "Really? Just....just sliced and stabbed though what honest to god looks like at least a half a foot or more of solid metal....yeah okay
keep in mind, Ceramite (main material used for the Armour in Astaries power armour)mostly shrugs off Lasgun Fire, and Glancing bolter hits- now, a lasgun, if depicted realistically, would chunk/pink mist a human with a torso shot/ blow off limbs due to it EXPLOSIVELY flash-boiling the water in the targets tissues-and a bolter is essentially a hybrid Gyrojet/RPG slash anti-material rifle round combining extreme muzzle velocity with continued acceleration outside the barrel- the issue in 40k is there there are quite a few infantry weapons that JUST have that much force/penetrative power that even the Best armour is simply improving your chances of SURVIVING a hit (crippled or otherwise).
for comparison, the average Ork can outright shrug off a half-dozen or more Lasgun impacts, and limp away from several bolter hits...and still be in good enough shape to rip one of the hapless guardsmen firing the above apart like a chicken carcass...
another issue regarding the imperium specifically is their matsci has spent the last 10-20 millennia stagnating because a certain golden idiot took the easy way out instead of obliterating the machine cult when he had the chance, pragmatism be damned- its highly possible that there are FATALLY Flawed alloys/armour schemes in widespread service that've never been corrected because changing the makeup would require innovation/Heresy...>.>
since i assume you're referring to combat with Eldar/Dark eldar, keep in mind BOTH of them have/use weaponized mollywire (monomolecular wire)and cutting edges-and if the blades in Question had a power-field generator, well,thats what Power-weapons do-carve right through armor...
*sighs*they even have guns that rapid-fire momol mesh (death spinners)at extreme velocity that're infamous for literally mulching poorly armoured/moderately armoured troops at short range,but you blow up a single supersized factory/staging-ground ship and suddenly YOU'RE the sociopaths monster! arrgh! bloody space elves!
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Yes, me too. Of course, he obviously wasn't looking very hard, since he had 65 years to make arrangements.
I'm willing to sort of give him a pass on the first five years since he was still acting as Dr Fate according to word of Greg, ala the half helmet, aka the Helmet of Nelson as I put it.
But it's a sharp contrast to Golden Age Flash, who didn't retire until Barry stepped up, and even then was only in semi-retirement.
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Don't badmouth the Mechanicum. They are doing the best they can, and they legitimately don't have better options. Pre-Horus Heresy they 'just' had the problem where anything new or anything unearthed from the past was a potential source of rogue AI (The Iron Men) which could destroy them all. (Horus dangles unlocking the vaults and letting them try it anyway, damn the risks, as a carrot to get them to join the HH.) Post-Heresy they still have all of that, plus anything new or unearthed could also be infested with scrapcode and make anything that uses it infested with daemons. Going ahead with a project that has either of those will, if you're lucky, kill you and everyone in the room. If you're unlucky, it will kill your entire working group and everyone in the same building complex. If you're extremely unlucky it will replace your planet with a Warp storm or quasi-Tomb World.
That's the great tragedy of 40K (and what makes it appeal to alt-right types); it's a world where leaving tradition behind to seek new and better ways of doing things is a legitimate catastrophic risk for all of society. The Imperium, Mechanicum, Marines, ImpGuard, and all, are doing the best they can in the world they live in; their options are horrific but their decisions between them are, ultimately, the correct ones.
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*coughs* also, its allready been covered, but the Executor got Rammed After its Shield Generators/emitters in that Arc got blown out/shorted and needed to reset due to the number of hits it was soaking due to being the largest,more obvious target in the fleet- She had between 2 and THREE secondary Bridges, but the Flag Deck getting Pithed by a Suicide run from a about-to-blow fighter with a stuck ejection mechanism came at LITERALLY the worst time possible, AND whilst they were under thrust on a course dangerously close to the deathstar II for a change-of-command - a few seconds of delay in handing over the con was all it took for the collision...
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*nods* that's the impression I got from the episode as well. Though I think we can agree that he should have started looking for a replacement (years) earlier?
Hestia&theCourt
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Unless he had been and magic users are just so hard to find that he never did?
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He had 65 years, he could have found people to train to be wizards and have been training their grandchildren in that time.
Which is what Nabu did in the comics, but apparently not in YJ.
Kent's father was killed by booby traps in Nabu's pyramid, and Nabu then trained Kent from childhood to be Dr Fate.
Culminating in Kent killing Nabu so he could go into the helmet.
But there's no indication of such wife husbandry in Kent's origin in YJ that I'm aware of.
Hestia&theCourt
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Mmm, fair point. His selection process would need to be pretty good, though, to avoid people who have other major things they need to be doing.
Nope. I tend to be more than a little suspicious when they do that. It reminds me of something IIRC Roger Ebert said about movies; you know that a movie is going to be really bad when don't show a trailer with anything from the actual movie, since they can't even come up with a few minutes of cool looking footage out of the whole thing to patch together into a trailer.
If a game trailer shows nothing from the actual game I have to wonder just why they are so shy about showing it.
If you want that to be true in your fic, that's up to you, but there's zero evidence in that episode that (a) Nelson went to Madame Xanadu for any reason other than just the seance or (b) that he has ever looked for another host for Nabu. None.
You appear to have completely missed my point.
In canon, they used the helmet twice before the Roanoke incident. The first time, Wally was told ahead of time that if he put on the helmet, he may never get it off, and he was only allowed to take it off after he swore to find Nabu another host. The second time, Kaldur put it on, and was only allowed to take it off because Kent Nelson begged Nabu to let him.
In WTR, they only had the first warning, because with Paul around, Kaldur never needed to use it. As compared to canon, that makes Nabu hastier and the Team having not had as many warnings.
I've literally never heard that interpretation outside of WTR threads. I just went and rewatched that part of the episode, and I still don't see it. Kent appears to me to be exactly as he appears on the surface: an old man still grieving his wife and looking for a legitimate medium so he can talk to her again. He never says that Inza would be mad at him for spending money on a seance; he says she'd be mad about him spending money on a fake. There's never any indication that he had the skills to be a medium himself; that's not traditionally part of Dr. Fate's skillset.
If he had ever looked for a host, you don't think he would have mentioned it during the discussion with Nabu? Something about how hard he's worked, something to Wally giving him advice on where to look, anything? I would find it incredibly bizarre if he's been spending his life looking for a new host, and it never comes up in conversation.
YJ S1 E7 said:
Is that the conversation you'd have if you had spent decades actually working to try to help someone? Sounds to me more like the conversation you'd have if you realized you fucked someone over and were apologetic about it.
Personally, my take is that the Kent Nelson/Nabu relationship is the breakup from hell. What we know about their past is:
- Nabu and Kent had a time-sharing arrangement, in which Kent lived his own life while he wasn't out being Doctor Fate. This seems pretty inescapable from the fact that he met and then married Inza during the time period he was Doctor Fate.
- Kent benefited from the arrangement; it wasn't just a one-way street. I'm inferring that from the fact that he obviously had the ability to take the helmet off and put it back on, and chose to keep doing the latter for years, as well as from Kent operating as Doctor Fate without the helm afterward (albeit at a significantly lower power level), using the magic he studied and gained from osmosis during that time period.
- In 1945, five years after becoming Doctor Fate, Kent's wife convinced him that there was more to life than superheroics... after which he imprisoned Nabu in the Tower of Fate, and continued being a superhero.
Maybe Kent originally planned on this being a temporary thing and they'd eventually reconcile, but then time went on, and it became easier to just not think about it, and (in canon YJ) he never tried to find a replacement host, never tried to fashion a temporary host body that Nabu could ride until he found a host on his own, and was content to just die without ever doing anything to set Nabu free.
It's basically the story of two close friends, who both fucked up the relationship and don't know how to reconcile... with the added bonus that one of them imprisoned the other and it's gone on for so long that he has no idea how to make things right.
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I'm even suspicious about trailers that SHOW gameplay myself these days,
After what gearbox Pulled with Aliens: Colonial marines....
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Hestia&theCourt
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Yeah, warned by Klarion. Only a complete moron would have taken that at face value in that scenario, even though Klarion was correct.
I accept the rest of your point regarding how much warning Nabu gave, but let's be real here: the number of warnings doesn't matter. No matter how many warnings he gave, no matter how many times he was put on to solve an emergency and then put right back on a shelf, what Nabu did was unconscionable, and if something so little (by the standards of immortal beings) as being put on a shelf for 65 years was enough to make him decide this was acceptable, he would have done that regardless of almost anything anyone else did, short of already having found a willing host for him. How impatient Nabu was about it is largely irrelevant; the fact that this is a thing he not only would do with little provocation, but did, means that Nabu's in an equally bad light in either timeline based on that alone.
I disagree with some of the other points in this post, but I can't seem to articulate why just yet. I may reply back later once my brain starts cooperating.
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To be fair that was a typo. The gameplay video actually WAS possible with the game that was released... if you fixed a mistake in the default config file.
Not that this was discovered while the game still mattered to the general public...
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