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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Twelve)

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Evil M. Lurker said:
...if I were Grayven, I would begin investigation into whoever is wearing the blue union suit.

Because that. Is not. Superman. :mad:

(I never watched more than a couple of episodes of Young Justice, and if this characterization is accurate to the show I'm glad I didn't, because what the hell Greg Weisman?)
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Mr Zoat is creating characterisation from scratch with this.
Maxx Crowley said:
Pretty much everything about Young Justice Superman (that I've seen) is rather out of character. It's only been continued as the story has gone on.
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Not really?
 
Maxx Crowley said:
I mean, keep in mind, that Golden age (I believe was the age) Superman flat out smashed a US city to force some governmental program to rebuild it as it was basically a slum.
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Which was fine, but even ignoring the fact that those people won't have anywhere to live in the mean time... Was that really the best thing he could have been doing with his time? In 1939?

Genuinely radical Superman can work, but the world he would create wouldn't be much like the one in the series. A genuinely radical Superman would have had a chortle about Bialya not signing the League's mandate and removed her from office. The Young Justice Superman is a good man, but he... I'm reminded of a joke about Mutually Assured Destruction. The joke goes that it didn't work under Obama, because Obama was an intelligent man and acutely aware of the horror a nuclear was would unleash. Where as under Bush, you could genuinely believe that at any moment he just say say 'I don't like you' and push the button. Superman knows everything that could go wrong, having already dealt with the fallout too many times already. Give him a week to plan things and he'd join in once he was sure the plan would work out.

On the other hand, there's Superman's response to this. Part of the reason why the League is so effective at the present time is that they have cooperation from the law enforcement organisations of nearly every country on the planet. Which means that Superman was in the unenviable position of having to decide how many people would die either way, and what the chance of either happening was and he hadn't had time because a) it had been two days since Grayven handed over the dossier and b) Grayven had known more or less what was going on for months and not clued the League in.
 
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Mr Zoat said:
Sometimes the goats stare back.
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Hell can be seen in that staring, empty darkness. The quadratic-shaped, in-two-directions-at-once-staring darkness.

HandleWithCare said:
Huh. What would happen if someone would try to Antilife Hell?
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Some type of dark evolution by combining cosmic evil with brimstone evil. The essence of soul crushing misery an the most fundamental level, basically.
It would make for a good album cover, I sudpect.
 
HandleWithCare said:
Huh. What would happen if someone would try to Antilife Hell?
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With part of the equation, or the full thing?

Demons are purposive beings, just extremely malevolent ones. As such, they are entirely vulnerable to some parts of the Equation while immune to other, believing those parts to be 'old news'. The full Equation would probably subvert the entire place. I say 'probably', because some entities which developed in Hell owe nothing to Creation. True Abominations might be immune.
 
EmptyHollow said:
I don't understand why other countries would try and nuke Britain. I mean, Grayven said that they posted all of the crimes online and there is clearly a super powered being (Grayven) and British heroes on scene to clean up this mess. Every other government on Earth knows or will know what the British government did.
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Clearly, Superman is implying that some or all of the other nuclear-capable powers might be as bad as Britain-16 was, and thus legitimately fear that not exacting immediate retribution would mean that they would be next. Way to alienate a lot of your allies and potential allies, Kal-El.

Also, something that people seem to be ignoring, that's pretty important: Grayven didn't do this alone, and he didn't only involve British superheroes, IIRC. I recall that the not-corrupt and not-too-corrupt portions of the mundane Law Enforcement community were briefed on what was going on, and were in at the death, and the not-too-corrupt politicians were also briefed. This was as close to 'within the system' as it was possible to be and still be effective, IMHO.

As for Grayven 'acting in bad faith' as some have said, what good would telling them he was moving in two days do? Remember, the League has already by-and-large failed to make him trust them all that much (if he knew how the Nabu situation went in the Paragon timeline, it would be even worse), and Superman's reaction in this chapter pretty much confirms that opinion.
 
Prince Charon said:
Clearly, Superman is implying that some or all of the other nuclear-capable powers might be as bad as Britain-16 was, and thus legitimately fear that not exacting immediate retribution would mean that they would be next. Way to alienate a lot of your allies and potential allies, Kal-El.
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To me, Superman was implying a historic fact- Governments go to war to keep their power.

Is the US run by a secret cabal of demon summoning baby eaters? Probably not.

Have they done shady things that deserve being arrested for? Probably, comic book writers love government conspiracies. Even if the current US government hasn't, the real world has 195 countries in it.

DC undoubtedly has more, so let's round to 200, how many governments do you think "Oh the British government officials were arrested for crimes they committed, good thing we've never broken the law?"
 
I think the person the grayven have to worry about is lex. he just did what lex always thought kal el was going to do. sort of. imean he is not really taking over, but im sure a superhuman alien overthrowing governments is part of lex's nightmare. or is that not true for young justice?
 
Plus Lex is already pretty pissed at Grayven for eliminating/betraying Light Version 1, and strong-arming him into helping with Grayven's Light 2.0.
 
We would give Grayven the same response in the real world as Superman did here after all in fiction if you go to a culture and overthrow the government because you think there evil you're a hero, in the real world your the evil one I mean look at North Kora I dont see pepole steping in to help there.
 
A quote that I believe is relevant to this discussion, that kind of summarizes at least some of the opinions:

"The aims of all governments, whatever their names or forms, are precisely the same, at all times and everywhere. The first and foremost of them is simply to maintain the men constituting the government in their positions of power, that they may live gloriously at the expense of the people they govern, and enjoy all the honors and usufructs that go therewith. There may be other purposes in them from time to time, but those purposes are transient, and most of them are insincere… The natural tendency of every government is to grow steadily worse – that is, to grow more satisfactory to those who constitute it and less satisfactory to those who support it."
-- H. L. Mencken

That doesn't make it a good thing, of course, and for all the likely consequences (including nukes, which are unlikely to fly in greater numbers than Grayven could stop), this is something that needed to be done, because Hellblazer's version of the British government was that blatantly horrifying, and that heavily entrenched. Fiat justitia ruat cælum!
 
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Prince Charon said:
A quote that I believe is relevant to this discussion, that kind of summarizes at least some of the opinions:

"The aims of all governments, whatever their names or forms, are precisely the same, at all times and everywhere. The first and foremost of them is simply to maintain the men constituting the government in their positions of power, that they may live gloriously at the expense of the people they govern, and enjoy all the honors and usufructs that go therewith. There may be other purposes in them from time to time, but those purposes are transient, and most of them are insincere… The natural tendency of every government is to grow steadily worse – that is, to grow more satisfactory to those who constitute it and less satisfactory to those who support it."
-- H. L. Mencken

That doesn't make it a good thing, of course, and for all the likely consequences (including nukes, which are unlikely to fly in greater numbers than Grayven could stop), this is something that needed to be done, because Hellblazer's version of the British government was that blatantly horrifying, and that heavily entrenched. Fiat justitia ruat cælum!
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I don't know how that quote applies to modern America or even Europe. yeah there aree some who are lucky but I think civil servents are miserable.
 
david15 said:
We would give Grayven the same response in the real world as Superman did here after all in fiction if you go to a culture and overthrow the government because you think there evil you're a hero, in the real world your the evil one I mean look at North Kora I dont see pepole steping in to help there.
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Because there's no real world way to "step in" that won't cause more death and suffering than is already happening.

And because most people in real world positions of power are less benevolent than Grayven.
 
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