Lazurman
This is fine.
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- Classified
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- He/Him
Somehow, I doubt the US and even the USSR were complicit in the government-wide practice of murder, rape, cannibalism, pedophilia, and summoning demons. Not necessarily in that order, even!
With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Twelve)
- Thread starter Mr Zoat
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- Hampden Park
How 'complicit' is 'complicit'?
I mean, war is basically 'mass murder by a state actor'. Rape is a crime that increases during major societal breakdowns, one cause of which can be war. Cannibalism? Probably not. Paedophilia goes along with rape, and summoning demons isn't that unusual.
Oh, and just to be clear, Superman isn't saying that Grayven should have left them in place indefinitely any more than he'd tell someone to let a thief go because he had connections. He's saying that the international political aspect needed to be handled very carefully because this could go very badly, and he's annoyed that Grayven didn't give them the time that he said he would.
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TriviaFreak
Time of reluctance.
You do know that much of the Western World is effectively affected by Christianity or some other similar strain of monotheism and the moral standards inherent to it?
That's also kinda bled over into the rest of the world to a lesser extent, if there already wasn't some similar sentiments already in place.
In other words, dis shit gon be bad for alla y'alls.
Ah, so they heard "I go in 30 days, please review." As "I go in 30 days, please ensure the fallout is minimized" and then got pissy when they looked like idiots to various state actors they tried to brief.
Lazurman
This is fine.
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- He/Him
Honestly, it's mostly the summoning of and consorting with demons that makes WTR-verse England worse—as unless there's a very, very well-maintained Masquerade in place, you can't summon demons in our world.
That, and while there were undoubtedly numerous instances of the aforementioned crimes against humanity perpetuated during the Cold War, I doubt 95% of either government was as personally reprehensible as the ones here.
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- Hampden Park
Sometimes the goats stare back.
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- Canada
He has a Flash speed speedster with New God powers.
I'm pretty sure one of the examples Zoat used comes from a comic where they thought Superman was mind controlled by a magic guy. They complained afterward about how their millions of bucks in gear slowed Superman for about fifteen seconds.
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- Ashtabula
"Mother box, Boom tube to a place that I don't care about."
Ping.
Also, ten thousand nuclear missile eh? I guess whoever is tossing them doesn't want anywhere to live?
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- she/her
It's actually worse than that. Hell existing means there's no theoretical limit on his vengeance - he can still get at you.
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- Germany
But can hardly do worse to you than simply leave you there.
I'm starting to wonder if Superman even read those files. If not, then he needs a slap and to be made to sit down and read them till he throws up in disgust.
If he already read the files then he needs another slap and to be made to go explain his stance on this topic to his parents. Then to one of the people they pulled out of the Club right before he was going to be tortured to death.
Grayven did a terrible job of explaining his position (seriously, just fucking talk!) but whatever the personal and political ramifications of this may be, they're nothing compared to overall good done by shutting this place down, Right. Now.
Put your big-boy tights on and suck it up.
That said, this feels very out-of-character for superman. I wouldn't be surprised if he either didn't know the score or was an impostor or something.
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- New England
This is probably the most critical point. Ultimately, Greyven acted in bad faith.
No. They heard 'I go in 30 days' and were justifiably pissed when he went in 2.
To everyone saying Mother Box is an instant answer to nuclear missiles I would like you to consider something: FTL jammers are even easier than scry wards. And every major government on Earth 16 was just given ample motivation to get both.
Greyven had a longer grace period than Paul because he avoided angering any major organisations. This is no longer the case.
And how many more people would they have tortured to death in the twenty nine days he said he'd give them?
How many raped, murdered, and eaten children are those twenty nine days worth?
No, superman should have been the one chomping at the bit the most. His entire archetype is 'save everyone, no excuses.'
The moment he heard what was happening, he should been halfway to the club himself, and to hell with the political ramifications.
Grayven did it neatly because he was willing to put aside the urge to immidiately rescue the people in the club so that he could cast a wide net and mark EVERYONE for arrest.
Starting from the top down. (politicians first, then civil servants, then police, then finally moving on the club)
Superman wouldn't have waited. He'd have started from the bottom-up, with the club (because that's where the victims are) and probably relied on batman to use the evidence in the club to find out who was backing it.
This... this isn't superman. He's psychologically incapable of suggesting that you leave someone to die or be tortured for the sake of making things more convenient later on.
The only way this scene makes sense is if Superman is totally ignorant of what was going on, and assumes it's just generic dark-government action (which explains why he compared it to a task-force built to take him down) rather than the child-rape and murder-cannibalism that it actually is.
Or he's an impostor.
How so? FTL jammers are technological. A scry ward is a squiggly symbol drawn with an etching pen.
We're not sure if earth even has the tech available to do FTL jamming.
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- Germany
Huh. What would happen if someone would try to Antilife Hell?
on the topic of 'mass nuking' Grayven:
ICBMs are not something you can re-target on the fly. Each one has a target preprogramed and it's not easy to change that target (especially by remote, you sort of need access to the missile's guidance computer).
Only a limited number of missiles would be pointed at any particular location so unless multiple nuclear armed nations decide to fire on England at the same time, he's unlikely to need to worry about even a half dozen at once.
Also missiles take minutes to reach their target, Grayven would have plenty of time to fly away from he blast zone, even with some sort of Boomtube/FTL jammers.
And lets not forget the public outcry of other nations deciding to try and nuke Grayven (and millions of civilians) for exposing and arresting (yes, arresting, not 'killed trying to escape' enmass) a vast conspiracy of 'sadistic, mass murdering, sexually deviant, satanists', that choice would scream "I'm just as bad!" to the world.
ICBMs are not something you can re-target on the fly. Each one has a target preprogramed and it's not easy to change that target (especially by remote, you sort of need access to the missile's guidance computer).
Only a limited number of missiles would be pointed at any particular location so unless multiple nuclear armed nations decide to fire on England at the same time, he's unlikely to need to worry about even a half dozen at once.
Also missiles take minutes to reach their target, Grayven would have plenty of time to fly away from he blast zone, even with some sort of Boomtube/FTL jammers.
And lets not forget the public outcry of other nations deciding to try and nuke Grayven (and millions of civilians) for exposing and arresting (yes, arresting, not 'killed trying to escape' enmass) a vast conspiracy of 'sadistic, mass murdering, sexually deviant, satanists', that choice would scream "I'm just as bad!" to the world.
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- New England
No, I mean he anti life's you, briefly. Then he waits bowever long it takes for you to recover, and just when you get yourself back together he comes and does it again.
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- Ashtabula
Pretty much everything about Young Justice Superman (that I've seen) is rather out of character. It's only been continued as the story has gone on.
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- Somewhere out there
This is a comic book world. Some such lunatic is sure to exist, believing he's extracting a pyrrhic revenge.
Is Mother Box blocked by scry wards, anyway?
This is a VERY. BAD. IDEA. Those demons who manage to survive the exposure now have a horrific new weapon.
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- Estonia
He almost certainly did, because that could be the only reason he didn't try to stop Grayven right there, merely abduct him for a minute, to lecture him about potential consequences.
If the world of DC is anything like ours, then there will be autocratic/corrupt governments that will be known, as an open secret, to sometimes disappear and/or torture people. Never mind as a superhero, as a reporter, Clark should be very aware of that fact, yet chooses to not go overthrowing them. And I really doubt Clark thinks that it happening in the "third world" vs the "first world" (or vice versa, in this case) has any moral difference.
To try to explain his perspective, as Lawful Good, he probably believes that doing some things is simply not under his authority, even if he had the power and his heart bleeds to help. In fact, exactly because he has the power, he might feel he has to be especially careful to not just start rearranging the world according to his personal morality, to not risking to start a slipper slope into taking over the world. So, the exact opposite of Grayven's attitude, basically.
Also, wanting to avoid future conflict of superheroes vs. governments of the world is hardly just about "convenience". Either the superheroes win and have to take over the world, thus becoming what they feel they fought against, or the governments win over superheroes and the world is screwed the next time superheroes would have been needed.
I don't necessarily agree with such reasoning myself, but I can see where Superman is probably coming from, here.
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- Germany
I don't know. As horrifying as Hell is, pain is part of life. The Antilife could weaken Hell considerably. Or the two could even destroy each other.
If you think that sitting on your thumbs while evil happens because it 'isn't under your authority' is the correct action then you're Lawful Neutral at best.
Superheroes are at their core vigilantes. Don't forget that. Most of them don't give a damn about authority or jurisdiction. They care about doing the right thing.
If that wasn't true, they wouldn't wear masks or costumes.
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- Estonia
To play the
For example, if the League had been allowed to do it, they would have almost certainly managed to stop the club's activities with fully legal means available to them, just that a lot of people involved would have gone unpunished and their corruption would have continued to fester.
Grayven's method allowed a clean cut removal of the issue, but also established a precedent that a superpowered individual can overthrow a legitimate and stable government, as long as they say they have good intentions and are fighting corruption.
Basically, being Lawful Good would see the first as a lesser evil than the second, because of the inherent instability and fear it induces and someone unsavoury inevitably abusing the precedent.
Not really in DC. The hero community clearly found their place in the social contract with the populace and the state (like being allowed to go well beyond the usual limits of citizen arrest, as long as they don't use lethal force) even before they got official recognition.
Really, being able to become a costumed vigilante seems to be almost a seen as a right (as long as you don't go "too far"), at least in America, with even the most lawful personalities not seeing any conflict or hypocrisy in it. So they are still following the unwritten law of their society and are not in active conflict with their government and justice system just for doing it, like they would be in our world.
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- Ashtabula
I mean, keep in mind, that Golden age (I believe was the age) Superman flat out smashed a US city to force some governmental program to rebuild it as it was basically a slum.
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