With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Twelve)

[Danelaw]

He needed something to counter Satanus; angelfied-Blaze does that. Considering that OL was only recently sucked into Hell thanks to a trap of his, countering Satanus is probably pretty high on his priority list.

Click to shrink...

A highly specific trap that can't be reused unless Paul decides to try resurrecting people from the dead with Lazarus Pits again. If he does start that up again anytime soon, without some well researched and tested countermeasures, he honestly deserves to get trapped again.

Satanus, besides that moment, has done little else besides (once again, IIRC) that whole devil jizz business. He's hardly a major threat that necessitates Paul deciding that potentially antagonizing Heaven is the thing that should be done to address him. Also doesn't he have those angel feather rounds? Which admittedly were countered, at least in part, by that masochist demon thing.

For instance, it might've been interesting to see Paul put aside his personal distaste for the Church and Christianity (like he did the Vega factions) and reach out to religious officials and see if they have a anti-devil/ demon research arm to go along with their exorcist branch. Or even see if they can reach out to the angels themselves. I'm not saying that such an arm exists or that such an outreach would've gone well but it feels like it'd be more thought out than just stealing the fruit.

 

[ThrawnCA]

People get murdered all the time. Thefts from God are a little more unusual.

Click to shrink...

Malachi would disagree.

 

[GilliamYaeger]

Satanus, besides that moment, has done little else besides (once again, IIRC) that whole devil jizz business. He's hardly a major threat that necessitates Paul deciding that potentially antagonizing Heaven is the thing that should be done to address him. Also doesn't he have those angel feather rounds? Which admittedly were countered, at least in part, by that masochist demon thing.

Click to shrink...

IIRC Paul noted that Hell had been seriously industrialized during his interplanar jaunt, so it doesn't take a genius to work out that letting Satanus build up his forces unimpeded will end poorly for pretty much everyone.

 

[Hestia&theCourt]

With the recent case of Paul and the Pomegranate, it felt, I dunno, a little jarring for him not to at least do more than the bare minimum of research into Heaven and its potential actions/reactions/abilities/contactability before declaring diplomacy pointless and deciding to steal the fruit, other possibilities and consequences be damned.

Click to shrink...

This has been addressed (by Zoat, I think), though I'm not sure where exactly it was said: there weren't many people who knew anything about Heaven that Paul knew how to find. The only reason he found Constantine is because he had metaknowledge; as far as I can tell, his metaknowledge doesn't extend to anyone else who might know something worth knowing about the Silver City, aside from the likes of Thana, who already told him what little she knew. So then you have the problem of trying to find clever, canny magic users who aren't easily detectable via power ring, just to find out that this particular magic user actually doesn't know anything about Heaven and you've wasted all that time for no gain.

(There might've also been some altruism about peace between the factions saving the most lives in the end but I don't remember clearly.)

Click to shrink...

You recall correctly, unless I am also misremembering.

He's hardly a major threat that necessitates Paul deciding that potentially antagonizing Heaven is the thing that should be done to address him.

Click to shrink...

I think you missed the part where demons previously had no capacity to use anything other than basic tools and weapons, until Satanus started upteching them. In less than a year, he's brought demonkind from sticks and stones to having Chitauri-level war machines, and from corruption of single individuals to mass drug dealing. Demonkind is significantly more dangerous than it was, both in terms of pure combat and in terms of overall influence on Earth. And he's clearly not stopping there, so in another year Earth might well find themselves facing an army of demons all armed with schizotech, while having humanity's forces weakened because a not insignificant portion of humanity will do anything for another dose of DMN. That's a pretty big deal. And you'll note that Heaven did exactly jack and squat when the demons invaded Fawcett, so clearly Paul has no reason to trust them to intervene for a larger invasion. And if he antagonizes Heaven... well, better now than in the middle of a Hellwar.

EDIT: Corpse'd.

 

[ThrawnCA]

On the other hand, my (flimsy and tattered) knowledge of the Bible brings up that after Cain was exiled, he married a woman from a different 'tribe'(?), not descended from Adam or Eve (maybe from Lilith and someone else)

Click to shrink...

I don't know where you got that from; I can't see it in Genesis. And I'm pretty sure I would remember having read it, since it would contradict Joseph Smith's translation of Genesis.

 

[Danelaw]

IIRC Paul noted that Hell had been seriously industrialized during his interplanar jaunt, so it doesn't take a genius to work out that letting Satanus build up his forces unimpeded will end poorly for pretty much everyone.

Click to shrink...

I also remember everyone and their grandmother coming up with ways that an industrialized hell can turned to atomized/back holed/singularity'd ash. If he can get back into hell with even a few of the OLC I doubt Hell's newfound industrialization would last very long.

Also, might be my lack of imagination, but I struggle to think of many things that Hell's industrial program could pump out that would make their, apparently numerical but not all that bright, hordes much use against superheroes who don't have to not kill them

Even then what will Angel-fying Blaze and, I cant stop emphasizing this, potentially antagonizing Heaven do to stop Hell's industrialization program?

 

[Hestia&theCourt]

Even then what will Angel-fying Blaze and, I cant stop emphasizing this, potentially antagonizing Heaven do to stop Hell's industrialization program?

Click to shrink...

Satanus is the only reason that Hell is successfully upteching. Kill Satanus, demonkind will fight among themselves for a while to determine who's in charge now. And who better to kill a demon than his now-angelically powered sister?

 

[Danelaw]

This has been addressed (by Zoat, I think), though I'm not sure where exactly it was said: there weren't many people who knew anything about Heaven that Paul knew how to find. The only reason he found Constantine is because he had metaknowledge; as far as I can tell, his metaknowledge doesn't extend to anyone else who might know something worth knowing about the Silver City, aside from the likes of Thana, who already told him what little she knew. So then you have the problem of trying to find clever, canny magic users who aren't easily detectable via power ring, just to find out that this particular magic user actually doesn't know anything about Heaven and you've wasted all that time for no gain.



You recall correctly, unless I am also misremembering.



I think you missed the part where demons previously had no capacity to use anything other than basic tools and weapons, until Satanus started upteching them. In less than a year, he's brought demonkind from sticks and stones to having Chitauri-level war machines, and from corruption of single individuals to mass drug dealing. Demonkind is significantly more dangerous than it was, both in terms of pure combat and in terms of overall influence on Earth. And he's clearly not stopping there, so in another year Earth might well find themselves facing an army of demons all armed with schizotech, while having humanity's forces weakened because a not insignificant portion of humanity will do anything for another dose of DMN. That's a pretty big deal. And you'll note that Heaven did exactly jack and squat when the demons invaded Fawcett, so clearly Paul has no reason to trust them to intervene for a larger invasion. And if he antagonizes Heaven... well, better now than in the middle of a Hellwar.

EDIT: Corpse'd.

Click to shrink...

I really don't wanna quote this whole thing but I'm a bit tech illiterate.

I'll say for the lack of people he might know with connections to the Church he didn't even bother looking for the exorcist that they brought in to look him over during the Paulphidian mess. I think he went to Giovanni, who I think recommended that guy, and only asked him a "hypothetical" question about what might happen if he stole the fruit. Not the exorcist mind you, he asked Giovanni who's got no visible connection to the Church besides his faith and said exorcist.

And I have to say again, what's the rush—grafting those angel wings onto Blaze isn't gonna just up and fix the problem and you might create more trouble through the rush methods.

Now, I'll reiterate again that my memory is bad and you might be remembering better, but if Satanus has got Hell up to 'Chitauri war machines' (no clue what that is btw) why weren't the ambushing forces he had waiting for Paul at that trap armed with such? Instead of some semi-industrialized army of demons pouring weapons fire into Paul and co weren't we seeing what was essentially a savage horde charging them with a smattering of long range demons and the barbed wire guy? (If that isn't what happened I apologize in advance)

I think people are seeing 'industrialization' and thinking that Satanus has got some SB/SV level competence with his plans for armaments. And hasn't devil jizz use tapered off for the most part after Sabacc 2's portal opening? (Which I did forget about)

I also find people writing Heaven off for not intervening as really hasty—we've seen nothing from Heaven yet true but that doesn't mean that there can't be any help from them forever and ever, the end. Weak reason but, there might be certain restrictions on Heaven's forces that don't apply the same way to Hell's—I dunno, maybe the Antichrist has to show up before they mobilize.

And what I find even more worrying are the people who assume Heaven must be fought so might as well get a head start.

Satanus is the only reason that Hell is successfully upteching. Kill Satanus, demonkind will fight among themselves for a while to determine who's in charge now. And who better to kill a demon than his now-angelically powered sister?

Click to shrink...

I might've missed the part where Paul and Blaze agreed that she'd make an assassination run on Satanus once she got the wings up and working right. I could've sworn she was being brought in as a counter to his magic.

 

[Hestia&theCourt]

I really don't wanna quote this whole thing but I'm a bit tech illiterate.

Click to shrink...

Not a big deal either way, but if you only want to quote part of it, you can just click and drag over what you do want to quote, and options for either immediately replying or adding it to your quote queue should show up. Unless you're posting on your phone, in which case I don't know how you'd go about doing that.

I'll say for the lack of people he might know with connections to the Church he didn't even bother looking for the exorcist that they brought in to look him over during the Paulphidian mess. I think he went to Giovanni, who I think recommended that guy, and only asked him a "hypothetical" question about what might happen if he stole the fruit. Not the exorcist mind you, he asked Giovanni who's got no visible connection to the Church besides his faith and said exorcist.

Click to shrink...

Father Mathias (is that spelled with one "t" or two? I forget) is admittedly someone I had forgotten about as a possible source of information on Heaven, but Paul is also generally distrustful of Christianity and probably expected any information from Mathias to be propaganda at best. Remember, Paul reads Hellblazer, and by all accounts his metaknowledge is at least workable information, which means he trusts the Silver City about as much as he does Lex Luthor. Which may also lead into Paul not contacting Mathias because Mathias might actually be in a position to warn the angels of Paul's arrival.

And I have to say again, what's the rush—grafting those angel wings onto Blaze isn't gonna just up and fix the problem and you might create more trouble through the rush methods.

Click to shrink...

More practice with unfamiliar magic is always a good thing, though, so the more time Paul can get Blaze to practice in, the better. As for the rush methods, again, if Heaven didn't intervene at all at Fawcett, it seems unlikely that they'd retaliate violently because of a burglary that, at worst, damns a single soul.

Now, I'll reiterate again that my memory is bad and you might be remembering better, but if Satanus has got Hell up to 'Chitauri war machines' (no clue what that is btw) why weren't the ambushing forces he had waiting for Paul at that trap armed with such? Instead of some semi-industrialized army of demons pouring weapons fire into Paul and co weren't we seeing what was essentially a savage horde charging them with a smattering of long range demons and the barbed wire guy? (If that isn't what happened I apologize in advance)

Click to shrink...

You remember the big whale things in the Avengers movie? Hell now has cybersharks that are miniaturized versions of those, at least as far as their use in warfare goes. So yeah, they did use them on Paul. And unless Satanus is a complete idiot, he almost certainly made sure he had at least one prototype kept back so that if Paul destroyed them all, he doesn't have to do the design work all over. They may not have mastered guns yet, but if nothing else, Satanus has got the capacity to create demon cyborgs and he's not gonna stop with this one type.

And hasn't devil jizz use tapered off for the most part after Sabacc 2's portal opening?

Click to shrink...

Devil Jizz started after Sabbac 2 (we first saw it during the episode where the Star Conquerors regenerated themselves), and since they can peddle it in more cities than superheroes can defend, I imagine that Devil Jizz is a serious problem in major cities without a dedicated superhero. Even if it's not, it's clearly still getting used; given that the time travel episode started off with a bunch of them being slaughtered by Per Degaton, I rather doubt that its use is going down significantly, especially since our police force can't even reliably suppress drugs that don't give their users superpowers.

I also find people writing Heaven off for not intervening as really hasty—we've seen nothing from Heaven yet true but that doesn't mean that there can't be any help from them forever and ever, the end. Weak reason but, there might be certain restrictions on Heaven's forces that don't apply the same way to Hell's—I dunno, maybe the Antichrist has to show up before they mobilize.

And what I find even more worrying are the people who assume Heaven must be fought so might as well get a head start.

Click to shrink...

An ally that won't mobilize until a particular event occurs and who doesn't communicate what those circumstances even are is an ally that can't be relied on. Unless they seek to break their isolationism, it's just good sense to assume that they will continue to do nothing. Furthermore, if Hellblazer metaknowledge is accurate (and it seems to be based on other events in the story)... well, Heaven is an enemy if that's the case, or at best an independent force that doesn't or can't value human lives and quality thereof the way humanity does. Heaven isn't a potential ally any more than Hell is.

I might've missed the part where Paul and Blaze agreed that she'd make an assassination run on Satanus once she got the wings up and working right. I could've sworn she was being brought in as a counter to his magic.

Click to shrink...

Paul has shown willingness to kill the likes of Klarion and Blaze used to torture souls for power. Any plan those two come up with for stopping Satanus is obviously going to involve killing him, because neither of them have morals that preclude that. Whether they assassinate him or kill him in battle matters only in terms of approach, not in terms of the result.

 

[OrigamiPhoenix]

my 'issue' with Paul right now is that, compared to his previous exploits, he's seemingly tossing diplomacy to the wayside when it was something he used rather extensively before. I'll bring up Vega again because it's the easiest example.
Earlier situations, like with Nabu and the League I understood because he had large personal investment in the people involved so it made sense that he wasn't fully rational. With this situation he's just trying to get back into Batman's good books, a man that he doesn't honestly seem to care all that much about anymore. Add on that he doesn't need to hurry fixing Blaze because he's already found that Midnite guy to act as the League's magic user and it felt, to me at least, that he was rushing into the matter all pigheaded-like for no reason.
But then that's just my, probably poorly phrased, opinion.

Click to shrink...

A highly specific trap that can't be reused unless Paul decides to try resurrecting people from the dead with Lazarus Pits again. If he does start that up again anytime soon, without some well researched and tested countermeasures, he honestly deserves to get trapped again.
Satanus, besides that moment, has done little else besides (once again, IIRC) that whole devil jizz business. He's hardly a major threat that necessitates Paul deciding that potentially antagonizing Heaven is the thing that should be done to address him. Also doesn't he have those angel feather rounds? Which admittedly were countered, at least in part, by that masochist demon thing.
For instance, it might've been interesting to see Paul put aside his personal distaste for the Church and Christianity (like he did the Vega factions) and reach out to religious officials and see if they have a anti-devil/ demon research arm to go along with their exorcist branch. Or even see if they can reach out to the angels themselves. I'm not saying that such an arm exists or that such an outreach would've gone well but it feels like it'd be more thought out than just stealing the fruit.

Click to shrink...

Also, might be my lack of imagination, but I struggle to think of many things that Hell's industrial program could pump out that would make their, apparently numerical but not all that bright, hordes much use against superheroes who don't have to not kill them
Even then what will Angel-fying Blaze and, I cant stop emphasizing this, potentially antagonizing Heaven do to stop Hell's industrialization program?

Click to shrink...

Practically all of these points have been addressed in past discussion, so forgive me if something seems unclear due to any failure on my part to repeat all of the necessary information.

Diplomacy is not necessary for this endeavor. For Vega, he needed to stabilize the region and prevent war. For this current anti-Hell project, there have been no parties worth mollifying. He doesn't need or want the ignorant masses' support, and the only reason he is addressing the public at all is because Batman made him.
In fact, peeving off the Silver City would have only furthered his goals because his contigency plan was to take advantage of their aggression by using Hell as the battlefield for their fight.

As GilliamYeager said: Satanus may not currently be a threat, but he's obviously going to be, and it's best to prevent that. Devil Jizz alone is already making waves in the superhero community, so a bonafide demon army is going to be disastrous.

Exorcist-specialty groups (unofficial/official and/or affiliated/unaffiliated) most assuredly exist, but within the scope of this story and its Hellblazer-derived lore, I don't think there are any truly effective examples that would be worth allying with. The Silver City itself has shown no practical interest in combating Hell's forces, so there's no reason to believe that even if one could communicate with them, that they would be willing to cooperate.

Angel Blaze is rather obviously a counter to Hell's forces. She's already expressed willingness to cooperate with Paul - and the League by extension - in opposing her brother.

 

[Coda]

Well since the topic's back again I'll just say my 'issue' with Paul right now is that, compared to his previous exploits, he's seemingly tossing diplomacy to the wayside when it was something he used rather extensively before.

Click to shrink...

I disagree. This isn't the pussyfooting kind of "don't offend anyone so everyone wants to work with you" diplomacy, but it's diplomacy of a different kind. This is the kind of diplomacy where he carefully chooses how to present his case in order to have the maximum impact -- it's the kind of diplomacy you see in Congressional debates, for example, where the participants remain nominally polite to each other while couching their arguments in a polarized, confrontational manner in order to evoke a specific emotional reaction.

I don't know where you got that from; I can't see it in Genesis. And I'm pretty sure I would remember having read it, since it would contradict Joseph Smith's translation of Genesis.

Click to shrink...

It's Jewish tradition, not actually part of the Biblical canon.

 

[Danelaw]

Not a big deal either way, but if you only want to quote part of it, you can just click and drag over what you do want to quote, and options for either immediately replying or adding it to your quote queue should show up. Unless you're posting on your phone, in which case I don't know how you'd go about doing that.



Father Mathias (is that spelled with one "t" or two? I forget) is admittedly someone I had forgotten about as a possible source of information on Heaven, but Paul is also generally distrustful of Christianity and probably expected any information from Mathias to be propaganda at best. Remember, Paul reads Hellblazer, and by all accounts his metaknowledge is at least workable information, which means he trusts the Silver City about as much as he does Lex Luthor. Which may also lead into Paul not contacting Mathias because Mathias might actually be in a position to warn the angels of Paul's arrival.



More practice with unfamiliar magic is always a good thing, though, so the more time Paul can get Blaze to practice in, the better. As for the rush methods, again, if Heaven didn't intervene at all at Fawcett, it seems unlikely that they'd retaliate violently because of a burglary that, at worst, damns a single soul.



You remember the big whale things in the Avengers movie? Hell now has cybersharks that are miniaturized versions of those, at least as far as their use in warfare goes. So yeah, they did use them on Paul. And unless Satanus is a complete idiot, he almost certainly made sure he had at least one prototype kept back so that if Paul destroyed them all, he doesn't have to do the design work all over. They may not have mastered guns yet, but if nothing else, Satanus has got the capacity to create demon cyborgs and he's not gonna stop with this one type.



Devil Jizz started after Sabbac 2 (we first saw it during the episode where the Star Conquerors regenerated themselves), and since they can peddle it in more cities than superheroes can defend, I imagine that Devil Jizz is a serious problem in major cities without a dedicated superhero. Even if it's not, it's clearly still getting used; given that the time travel episode started off with a bunch of them being slaughtered by Per Degaton, I rather doubt that its use is going down significantly, especially since our police force can't even reliably suppress drugs that don't give their users superpowers.



An ally that won't mobilize until a particular event occurs and who doesn't communicate what those circumstances even are is an ally that can't be relied on. Unless they seek to break their isolationism, it's just good sense to assume that they will continue to do nothing. Furthermore, if Hellblazer metaknowledge is accurate (and it seems to be based on other events in the story)... well, Heaven is an enemy if that's the case, or at best an independent force that doesn't or can't value human lives and quality thereof the way humanity does. Heaven isn't a potential ally any more than Hell is.



Paul has shown willingness to kill the likes of Klarion and Blaze used to torture souls for power. Any plan those two come up with for stopping Satanus is obviously going to involve killing him, because neither of them have morals that preclude that. Whether they assassinate him or kill him in battle matters only in terms of approach, not in terms of the result.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, highlight and quote doesn't seem to work on my phone.

Father Matthias never struck me as the type to proselytize during his appearances, seemed more like a guy with a job that happened to be exorcism. And I get the whole Hellblazer thing coloring his perspective, it's still jarring to see him willing to work with slavers, murderers, mass cannibals, and those freaky tech guys who like to experiment on living people—even giving them that pirate lady to fiddle around with to secure peace on some planet he doesn't care about. But then not be willing to do work with, what I assume Hellblazer makes, Earth's equivalent to protect the world has massively more investment in.

Like, he got the talks from Constantine sure so he has that as a basis of what to expect but then he never went any further than that. He searched for random, minor dc characters in the world just to see if they existed but be never bothered to do any looking into Heaven to make sure it was just Hell in the sky?

And not trying to seem blasé here, but demonic planes and motorcycles plus a generic hellish horde doesn't paint a particularly good picture of the industrializing Hell has gotten. Now they might get better in the future, but what Paul's doing so far does nothing to address that.

And I obviously misremembered devil jizz so I'll accept that that'll be a pain in the ass to deal with. A angelified Blaze might be able to track down the er, demonic signature of the drugs (is that a thing?) so I guess she'd be helpful in finding the stock and the users.

I'd be willing to accept that complete write off of Heaven as a potential ally if he'd tried, even half-heartedly, to reach out to them somehow. If he got no response then he's got his proof they can't be relied on and he moves on as planned. If they do he can try to open dialogue and find out why they haven't intervened. Just saying that because they didn't show up for the attack means they're not worth it seems presumptuous.

Also, if that decision not to reach out to Heaven was based on Hellblazer knowledge of them also basically being evil and a future enemy why would he think it was a good idea to steal from them? Themnot teacting to puny humans getting killed is a bit different than the assumption that they wouldn't react to a puny human stealing from them.

And while Blaze could be useful in assassinating Satanus alongside Paul he's given no indication that that's his plan for her and the wings. Most of the time it comes off as, ' I wanna see if this works' crossed with 'S'pose I should find a counter to Satanus' magic'

Practically all of these points have been addressed in past discussion, so forgive me if something seems unclear due to any failure on my part to repeat all of the necessary information.

Diplomacy is not necessary for this endeavor. For Vega, he needed to stabilize the region and prevent war. For this current anti-Hell project, there have been no parties worth mollifying. He doesn't need or want the ignorant masses' support, and the only reason he is addressing the public at all is because Batman made him.
In fact, peeving off the Silver City would have only furthered his goals because his contigency plan was to take advantage of their aggression by using Hell as the battlefield for their fight.

As GilliamYeager said: Satanus may not currently be a threat, but he's obviously going to be, and it's best to prevent that. Devil Jizz alone is already making waves in the superhero community, so a bonafide demon army is going to be disastrous.

Exorcist-specialty groups (unofficial/official and/or affiliated/unaffiliated) most assuredly exist, but within the scope of this story and its Hellblazer-derived lore, I don't think there are any truly effective examples that would be worth allying with. The Silver City itself has shown no practical interest in combating Hell's forces, so there's no reason to believe that even if one could communicate with them, that they would be willing to cooperate.

Angel Blaze is rather obviously a counter to Hell's forces. She's already expressed willingness to cooperate with Paul - and the League by extension - in opposing her brother.

Click to shrink...

I'm obviously in the minority, but picking a fight with Heaven while gearing up to fight Hell seems inadvisable.

Is that what he said? Because I don't recall him planning that far ahead—remember bad memory—and why would that work in the first place? "The human has stolen the fruit and taken it to this human city....I suppose it's time to go invade Hell."

I misremembered devil jizz's appearance so I accept that it'll be a problem in the future that'll need dealing with.

You don't think there any such groups, but you don't know that there aren't, and neither does Paul because he never bothered to look for any. And maybe it's the crusader kings player in me, but I'm not one to discount someone as a potential ally until I get that definitive 'no'. Otherwise you might pass over groups that might be willing to aid but you pass them over thinking they wouldn't.

And Blaze is willing to aid Paul, to an extent. I'm saying this a lot, but I don't recall her expressing a willingness to storm Satanus' stronghold in Hell to put the guy down personally.

I disagree. This isn't the pussyfooting kind of "don't offend anyone so everyone wants to work with you" diplomacy, but it's diplomacy of a different kind. This is the kind of diplomacy where he carefully chooses how to present his case in order to have the maximum impact -- it's the kind of diplomacy you see in Congressional debates, for example, where the participants remain nominally polite to each other while couching their arguments in a polarized, confrontational manner in order to evoke a specific emotional reaction.


It's Jewish tradition, not actually part of the Biblical canon.

Click to shrink...

I'm sorry, I don't really get the comparison. Paul's not really doing the whole polite thing and it feels like the potential negatives of his decision greatly outweighed the potential positives when he was going into the situation.

 

[jonasquinn]

The same answers explain why God lets people steal his stuff as why God lets people do other bad things that don't involve his stuff. If Paul thinks that it's even possible to do good or bad things in this universe at all even though God disapproves of them, then the same reasoning used for that would also cover stealing from God.

If you go and murder someone you could say that God must think it's good for you to murder that person or he would have stopped it.

Click to shrink...

The problem with that argument is that while God may not interfere in the crimes that people commit on their fellow man the Bible is full of stories of him doing horrible things to people for even the slightest act against him which is what Paul has done

You can also argue that God, unlike other beings, only has possessions for good reasons; he never owns something just because he's greedy, or is going to misuse it, or because it's actually stolen and he's hiding it. That would make stealing from him more significant than stealing from anyone else.

Click to shrink...

I can see where you're coming from but A) it's a fruit it can very probably grow back, and if it can't he's God he can just make a new one, and B) he's literally had it since the dawn of time and the only thing he's ever done with it is tell other people not to eat it, he literally has it just so other people can't

 

[GilliamYaeger]

Yeah, highlight and quote doesn't seem to work on my phone.

Father Matthias never struck me as the type to proselytize during his appearances, seemed more like a guy with a job that happened to be exorcism. And I get the whole Hellblazer thing coloring his perspective, it's still jarring to see him willing to work with slavers, murderers, mass cannibals, and those freaky tech guys who like to experiment on living people—even giving them that pirate lady to fiddle around with to secure peace on some planet he doesn't care about. But then not be willing to do work with, what I assume Hellblazer makes, Earth's equivalent to protect the world has massively more investment in.

Like, he got the talks from Constantine sure so he has that as a basis of what to expect but then he never went any further than that. He searched for random, minor dc characters in the world just to see if they existed but be never bothered to do any looking into Heaven to make sure it was just Hell in the sky?

And not trying to seem blasé here, but demonic planes and motorcycles plus a generic hellish horde doesn't paint a particularly good picture of the industrializing Hell has gotten. Now they might get better in the future, but what Paul's doing so far does nothing to address that.

And I obviously misremembered devil jizz so I'll accept that that'll be a pain in the ass to deal with. A angelified Blaze might be able to track down the er, demonic signature of the drugs (is that a thing?) so I guess she'd be helpful in finding the stock and the users.

I'd be willing to accept that complete write off of Heaven as a potential ally if he'd tried, even half-heartedly, to reach out to them somehow. If he got no response then he's got his proof they can't be relied on and he moves on as planned. If they do he can try to open dialogue and find out why they haven't intervened. Just saying that because they didn't show up for the attack means they're not worth it seems presumptuous.

Also, if that decision not to reach out to Heaven was based on Hellblazer knowledge of them also basically being evil and a future enemy why would he think it was a good idea to steal from them? Themnot teacting to puny humans getting killed is a bit different than the assumption that they wouldn't react to a puny human stealing from them.

And while Blaze could be useful in assassinating Satanus alongside Paul he's given no indication that that's his plan for her and the wings. Most of the time it comes off as, ' I wanna see if this works' crossed with 'S'pose I should find a counter to Satanus' magic'

Click to shrink...

The thing with Heaven is that they rather brutally curbstomp anyone who even so much as sets foot there without permission, meaning there is pretty much zero reliable information on it, and everyone he talked about it with told him that Heaven just ignores everyone who tries to contact them (if they don't just murder them, of course). The Silver City has been depicted as an information black hole for the entire fic for a reason, y'know.

 

[Danelaw]

The thing with Heaven is that they rather brutally curbstomp anyone who even so much as sets foot there without permission, meaning there is pretty much zero reliable information on it, and everyone he talked about it with told him that Heaven just ignores everyone who tries to contact them (if they don't just murder them, of course). The Silver City has been depicted as an information black hole for the entire fic for a reason, y'know.

Click to shrink...

You might remember more people that he talked to about contacting Heaven, but the only person that's jumping to mind for me at this point is Thana (I think that's the priestesses name). And, as other people have said before, we've only got her side of the story right now and I don't like making decisions without both sides of a story.

Me telling someone that my mother basically kicked in the bathroom door and screamed her head off at me once when I was like five sounds real bad until I add that in my dipshit youth I thought I'd be all efficient-like and bring food to eat on the toilet while I pooed. She explained afterwards why she'd freaked out and I understood why she'd acted like that. But if I'd fled, and somehow never learned why that was disgusting, I would've been left thinking she'd done that for no real reason.

 

[Hestia&theCourt]

Father Matthias never struck me as the type to proselytize during his appearances, seemed more like a guy with a job that happened to be exorcism. And I get the whole Hellblazer thing coloring his perspective, it's still jarring to see him willing to work with slavers, murderers, mass cannibals, and those freaky tech guys who like to experiment on living people—even giving them that pirate lady to fiddle around with to secure peace on some planet he doesn't care about. But then not be willing to do work with, what I assume Hellblazer makes, Earth's equivalent to protect the world has massively more investment in.

Click to shrink...

Matthias doesn't have to proselytize for his information to be useless. He's certainly never been to Heaven, so whatever he knows is explicitly whatever Angelic authorities have told him, which is probably propaganda if anything.

Thing is, those slavers, cannibals, murderers... they are what they are, and they don't pretend to be moral. Hellblazer Heaven, on the other hand, is horrible and claims to be a moral authority. I'm not certain that's why Paul is so much less keen to even try to open dialogue, but it seems a reasonable hypothesis.

And not trying to seem blasé here, but demonic planes and motorcycles plus a generic hellish horde doesn't paint a particularly good picture of the industrializing Hell has gotten. Now they might get better in the future, but what Paul's doing so far does nothing to address that.

Click to shrink...

It's not the objective measure of what the devices are, it's the fact that Satanus managed to compress several hundred years of tech development into one year. One. At most. Satanus's tech is advancing at a frankly ludicrous rate, so you can't look at what he has and assume that's the level of threat he'll have to offer in a year.

Also, if that decision not to reach out to Heaven was based on Hellblazer knowledge of them also basically being evil and a future enemy why would he think it was a good idea to steal from them? Themnot teacting to puny humans getting killed is a bit different than the assumption that they wouldn't react to a puny human stealing from them.

Click to shrink...

He had scry wards that fended off the First of the Fallen; he almost certainly expected to not be identified, let alone as quickly as he did, especially since he left demonic magic in the Garden as a distraction.

And while Blaze could be useful in assassinating Satanus alongside Paul he's given no indication that that's his plan for her and the wings. Most of the time it comes off as, ' I wanna see if this works' crossed with 'S'pose I should find a counter to Satanus' magic'

Click to shrink...

I mean, seems like a pretty obvious inference to me.

And, as other people have said before, we've only got her side of the story right now and I don't like making decisions without both sides of a story.

Click to shrink...

The other side of the story refusing to let anyone get a hint of the story is telling in and of itself.

 

[hance1986]

A shimmering image of a red-skinned man in roman armour appears a short distance in front of us. "Orange Lantern."

Click to shrink...

Older story post, but should be ' Roman '..?

 

[Danelaw]

Matthias doesn't have to proselytize for his information to be useless. He's certainly never been to Heaven, so whatever he knows is explicitly whatever Angelic authorities have told him, which is probably propaganda if anything.

Thing is, those slavers, cannibals, murderers... they are what they are, and they don't pretend to be moral. Hellblazer Heaven, on the other hand, is horrible and claims to be a moral authority. I'm not certain that's why Paul is so much less keen to even try to open dialogue, but it seems a reasonable hypothesis.



It's not the objective measure of what the devices are, it's the fact that Satanus managed to compress several hundred years of tech development into one year. One. At most. Satanus's tech is advancing at a frankly ludicrous rate, so you can't look at what he has and assume that's the level of threat he'll have to offer in a year.



He had scry wards that fended off the First of the Fallen; he almost certainly expected to not be identified, let alone as quickly as he did, especially since he left demonic magic in the Garden as a distraction.



I mean, seems like a pretty obvious inference to me.



The other side of the story refusing to let anyone get a hint of the story is telling in and of itself.

Click to shrink...

Well I think there'd be a few degrees of separation between him and any angels but I see what you're saying. I'm not going to change anyone's mind, but I still don't think that justifies not at least trying.

Maybe, and I can see why that might rub him the wrong way but Heavenly backup seems like it'd still be nice even if the angels delivering it were up their own ass with faux-righteousness.

Yes, but if Satanus is going to keep advancing at that speed and getting stronger then antagonizing Heaven seems overly risky. Two front wars suck.

And while he's got the wards that protect him from sight he did realize he'd have to let the fruit out of his possession, and thus the wards, at some point in the very near future when he delivered it to Sephora's and the rest. Why did he just assume they couldn't track the magical fruit once it wasn't being blocked from their sight? The demon magic was a good idea but then he'd need to hold off on his plans for the fruit for long enough for Heaven to, maybe, mobilize and try to track the demon down. Still, not necessarily invading Hell though—and still on the lookout for the fruit.

I'd be willing to assume that as well if he'd made reference to the possibility at any point (which he might've and I'm just not remembering) but so far his thinking seems to be limiting Blaze and the wings' use to countering Satanus' magic on Earth. Unless he's gonna realize the possibility soonish?

If I went up to a fancy house on the border of a foreign country and got shot by the homeowner I certainly wouldn't wanna go back to find out why he'd done that and he wouldn't be inclined to follow me and explain himself. Now maybe I passed into his private land and he panicked thinking I was a poacher. Maybe I missed signs in a foreign language telling me to vacate the private property or be shot. Maybe the guys just a crazy asshole. I'm probably going to assume the latter and not go looking for his reasons. And he probably tells his friends about the stupid foreign poacher he frightened off. (Of course pretending law enforcement doesn't exist for this comparison)

 

[Gantradies]

Can't speak for anyone else, but Mormon doctrine holds that this was a drastic mistranslation: what supposedly happened was that they intended to rape Lot's guests, he told them no, they said they intended to rape his daughters as well because he tried to stop them, and he pleaded with them not to do either of these things. Assuming I recall my scripture studies correctly, of course.

Click to shrink...

Oh that would make a LOT more sense- pun unintended >.<
Reminds me about the 42 virgins thing- alledgidly THAT was meant to be dates or something and it got completely mangled >.<

 

[Coda]

I'm sorry, I don't really get the comparison. Paul's not really doing the whole polite thing and it feels like the potential negatives of his decision greatly outweighed the potential positives when he was going into the situation.

Click to shrink...

He's being pretty polite overall. The way he handled the people in the audience, for instance, wasn't a reaction of rage, but one of a firm, direct, level-headed counterargument. He's not sugar-coating it, yes, but he's not being RUDE about anything.

 

[Hestia&theCourt]

Maybe, and I can see why that might rub him the wrong way but Heavenly backup seems like it'd still be nice even if the angels delivering it were up their own ass with faux-righteousness.

Click to shrink...

Yes, but if Satanus is going to keep advancing at that speed and getting stronger then antagonizing Heaven seems overly risky. Two front wars suck.

And while he's got the wards that protect him from sight he did realize he'd have to let the fruit out of his possession, and thus the wards, at some point in the very near future when he delivered it to Sephora's and the rest. Why did he just assume they couldn't track the magical fruit once it wasn't being blocked from their sight? The demon magic was a good idea but then he'd need to hold off on his plans for the fruit for long enough for Heaven to, maybe, mobilize and try to track the demon down. Still, not necessarily invading Hell though—and still on the lookout for the fruit.

Click to shrink...

I mean, I hate to keep harping on this, but Heaven hasn't lifted a finger to do anything on Earth for centuries at this point as far as I know, except for that one incident Paul mentioned last interview where the angel killed a bunch of people who tried to summon it or something. At that point, any alliances basically have to come from them, because nobody can get in contact without worrying about heavenly flame incinerating them where they stand. So again, can't really rely on them to do anything but sit on their asses. Which then leads, once again, to Paul stealing the fruit: if Heaven tried to take the fruit back violently, Paul can take the fruit to Hell and let Heaven tear Hell apart around him, and then he can take the weakened victor on. IIRC, that was his plan. If Heaven didn't react violently, Paul gets away basically scot-free.

If I went up to a fancy house on the border of a foreign country and got shot by the homeowner I certainly wouldn't wanna go back to find out why he'd done that and he wouldn't be inclined to follow me and explain himself. Now maybe I passed into his private land and he panicked thinking I was a poacher. Maybe I missed signs in a foreign language telling me to vacate the private property or be shot. Maybe the guys just a crazy asshole. I'm probably going to assume the latter and not go looking for his reasons. And he probably tells his friends about the stupid foreign poacher he frightened off. (Of course pretending law enforcement doesn't exist for this comparison)

Click to shrink...

If you go to a foreign country and get shot by the homeowner without the homeowner trying to tell you to go away at all via hand gestures or threatening faces or whatever, he's in the wrong and would have to answer for that. Similarly, Thana made a simple request and wasn't just told "no", she was burned. That's disproportionate by any measure of the term, no matter what he thought you were doing on his land or what Heaven thought Thana intended with that soul. Bare minimum, if you want to shoot/burn someone for trespassing where they're not wanted, the intruder needs to actually be threatening enough to warrant use of a gun/holy fire.

 

[Danelaw]

I mean, I hate to keep harping on this, but Heaven hasn't lifted a finger to do anything on Earth for centuries at this point as far as I know, except for that one incident Paul mentioned last interview where the angel killed a bunch of people who tried to summon it or something. At that point, any alliances basically have to come from them, because nobody can get in contact without worrying about heavenly flame incinerating them where they stand. So again, can't really rely on them to do anything but sit on their asses. Which then leads, once again, to Paul stealing the fruit: if Heaven tried to take the fruit back violently, Paul can take the fruit to Hell and let Heaven tear Hell apart around him, and then he can take the weakened victor on. IIRC, that was his plan. If Heaven didn't react violently, Paul gets away basically scot-free.



If you go to a foreign country and get shot by the homeowner without the homeowner trying to tell you to go away at all via hand gestures or threatening faces or whatever, he's in the wrong and would have to answer for that. Similarly, Thana made a simple request and wasn't just told "no", she was burned. That's disproportionate by any measure of the term, no matter what he thought you were doing on his land or what Heaven thought Thana intended with that soul. Bare minimum, if you want to shoot/burn someone for trespassing where they're not wanted, the intruder needs to actually be threatening enough to warrant use of a gun/holy fire.

Click to shrink...

Don't worry about it, we see the situation in different ways so we're obviously gonna see different things as significant. For me, Heaven's lack on intervention in the past isn't as much of a signifier—after all Hell hasn't been at its current level of activity in those years—why would they need to intervene when humans and the odd super humans seem to have things well in hand? And didn't those people who summoned the angel plan to use it for nefarious purposes? Not that odd he'd react poorly in that case. (I should really have a big IIRC before all my posts)

And that plan to sic Heaven on Hell requires them not to do at least a little bit of searching before attacking because Paul pretty much immediately tried using it after he stole it.

And if they had found him and attacked, what was his plan? He's in the middle of a city with the pomegranate and, as far as I know, no way to get into Hell without popping another Lazarus pit ritual and hoping Satanus grabs him again.

Best case scenario, from my perspective, was Heaven realized it was him but doesn't care/actively condones his actions; so nearly what happened. Neutral case was they either didn't realize the fruit was missing or couldn't track it. Worse case was they realized it was him, tracked him down through the fruit, and decided, being irredeemable Hellblazer Heaven, that the city needed a good Sodom and Gomorrah-ing. That really didn't seem a worthwhile risk, but he took it regardless.

From Thana's perspective she made a simple request, obviously whatever agent of Heaven she dealt with felt otherwise and reacted violently. I reserve judgement on it until I see the story from the other side. I may like Thana, even if I think her drive to respread her faith is doomed, but I'm not going to just assume she's completely right and accurate about what happened. Also, I'm fairly bad at making comparisons if you haven't realized.

He's being pretty polite overall. The way he handled the people in the audience, for instance, wasn't a reaction of rage, but one of a firm, direct, level-headed counterargument. He's not sugar-coating it, yes, but he's not being RUDE about anything.

Click to shrink...

Oh you're talking about his interaction with the audience. Honestly, I wasn't even considering them. They and the public are really unlikely have to any kind of influence over what happens to Paul or the League so they got a sort of mental write off from me.

 

[achaput]

Unless you're posting on your phone, in which case I don't know how you'd go about doing that.

Click to shrink...

The same way. At least on my phone.

 

[ThrawnCA]

I'm not stopping you writing one.

Click to shrink...

OK, here's my first attempt at episodes 1-26 . I aimed for minimal spoilerage, but I suppose a more comprehensive synopsis for those familiar with the story would also have its uses.

Episodes 1 & 2: Dependency Day
Wherein the SI awakens in orbit around Earth-16 wearing an orange power ring, and makes a deal to join the Young Justice team in exchange for a personal lantern.

Episode 3: Welcome to Happy Hour (should this be Happy Harbor?)

Wherein the Young Justice team fights Mister Twister, and Superboy learns he's a hybrid.

Episode 4: Prod Zone

Wherein the team investigates Santa Prisca and assaults the Venom factory there. Major timeline divergence: The Renegade is transformed with Venom Buster.

Episode 5: Skived

Wherein the team fights the Amazo robot, with the SI deepening his friendship with Superboy.

Episode 6: Exfiltrator

Wherein Artemis joins the team, and they protect Doctor Roquette from the League of Shadows.

Episode 7: Acceptance

Wherein the team is sent to rescue Kent Nelson and the Helmet of Fate from Klarion the Witch Boy.

Episode 8: Initiative

Wherein the SI defeats Clayface and goes after the League of Shadows in retaliation.

Episode 9: Clueless

Wherein the SI once again wakes up wearing an orange power ring and not knowing how he got there, but this time alongside his team.

Episode 10: Tracers

Wherein the SI enhances Superboy with the Danner formula, and rescues Lex Luthor from a substantially larger-than-canon assault on a Rhelasian peace conference.

Episode 11: Exaltations

Wherein the SI builds relationships with various inmates of Belle Reve after an attempted breakout, including saving Jade's life, as well as clashing and making up with Artemis regarding her choice of weaponry.

Episode 12: Home Front

Wherein the Red Robots invade Mount Justice.

Episode 13: Beta Male

Wherein the team cleans out a Lex Luthor research facility infested with mutated experimental animals.

Episode 14: Revolution

Wherein the SI faces his first real symptoms of orange light use, and the team joins the fight against the Injustice League, where the SI faces off against Black Adam.

Episode 15: Inhumanity

Wherein Doctor Morrow and his Red Robots attempt to destroy the world using the Yellowstone supervolcano.

Episode 16: Contingency

Wherein the SI participates in a telepathic training illusion. Major timeline divergence: the Renegade senses the illusion and breaks out early, while Paragon remains inside and crosses the Godzilla threshold.

Episode 17: Reordered

Wherein Paragon's world is all orange, while Renegade meets the Forever People and begins to establish an identity as Grayven of Apokolips.

Episode 18: Transparency

Wherein Paragon deals with the aftermath of the Orangest Week, and Renegade/Grayven transforms into his final(?) form with the help of a Father Box.

Episode 19: Displaced

Wherein Klarion the Witch Boy splits the world. Major timeline divergence: Grayven prevents Nabu from possessing Giovanni Zatara. Cornwall Boy joins the team in the Paragon timeline.

Episode 20: Half-hearted

Wherein the SI begins plotting to evict Nabu, and the USA is attacked by five ice fortresses.

Episode 21: Mirage

Wherein the team is sent to prevent Queen Bee from taking over the neighbouring country of Qurac. Grayven receives Batman's endorsement to infiltrate the Light.

Episode 22: Minutes

Wherein the SI and Superboy investigate Cadmus Labs, finding Match, and Wonder Woman adopts Superboy.

Episode 23: Insincerity

Wherein the SI helps Red Inferno to integrate her human and gynoid personalities, and protects Psimon from Bozo the Iron Man so that he can testify against Queen Bee.

Episode 24: Preparation

Wherein the SI pursues arcane artefacts to help fight Nabu, and runs into an ambush planned by his arch-nemesis.

Episode 25: Unusual Suspicions

Wherein Nabu joins the Justice League, and both timelines face major - but different - ambushes in the Smoky Mountains. Paragon faces more Bozos and phasing mercenaries, while Grayven faces an Apokoliptian force.

Episode 26: Gude-Willie Waught

Wherein the Light mind-controls the Justice League and takes over the Watchtower.

 

[Hestia&theCourt]

Don't worry about it, we see the situation in different ways so we're obviously gonna see different things as significant. For me, Heaven's lack on intervention in the past isn't as much of a signifier—after all Hell hasn't been at its current level of activity in those years—why would they need to intervene when humans and the odd super humans seem to have things well in hand? And didn't those people who summoned the angel plan to use it for nefarious purposes? Not that odd he'd react poorly in that case. (I should really have a big IIRC before all my posts)

Click to shrink...

Heaven's not there just to be anti-Hell. If they were half as benevolent as they claimed to be, they'd have angels out doing things to help people avoid being permanently damned because they believed in Christ and weren't perfect enough for the Silver City. Instead they're... what are they doing, exactly? Who knows. Whatever it is, they're not helping a situation that inherently favors Hell and puts people in eternal torment for disproportionate reasons. Like, maybe Hitler deserves eternal torment. Maybe. But most of the souls in Hell don't. And Heaven has proceeded to do nothing about this state of affairs for centuries. Again, if they believe even half of their own press, the correct solution to this state of affairs is to do literally anything except ignore it, but look at what they've actually done about it.

As for summoning the angel, you may be correct, but even then, all that does is establish that you don't call on angels unless you have a damn good reason, and note that nobody knows what even counts as a damn good reason because for people who invested a lot of effort into early-day humanity, they've had next to no communication with them since Christ walked the Earth.

"Last time I talked to Father Mattias about it, he told me that the Catholic Church had no direct contact with the Silver City. The Resurrection Crusade did, and it turned them into a hole in the ground. Again, as far as I'm aware, no monotheistic group has any direct contact with the Silver City and most of them have no knowledge of basic thaumaturgy anyway. I admit, not talking to Mister Cassidy was an oversight, but as it turned out he wouldn't have had all that much to offer either."

Click to shrink...

And that plan to sic Heaven on Hell requires them not to do at least a little bit of searching before attacking because Paul pretty much immediately tried using it after he stole it.

And if they had found him and attacked, what was his plan? He's in the middle of a city with the pomegranate and, as far as I know, no way to get into Hell without popping another Lazarus pit ritual and hoping Satanus grabs him again.

Best case scenario, from my perspective, was Heaven realized it was him but doesn't care/actively condones his actions; so nearly what happened. Neutral case was they either didn't realize the fruit was missing or couldn't track it. Worse case was they realized it was him, tracked him down through the fruit, and decided, being irredeemable Hellblazer Heaven, that the city needed a good Sodom and Gomorrah-ing. That really didn't seem a worthwhile risk, but he took it regardless.

Click to shrink...

"If an actual demonic invasion didn't result in direct divine intervention I doubt that what I did will. And if it does… I'll just have someone open a portal to Hell, fly through and wait until they've cut through half of Hell to find me. I don't have a lot of time for the Silver City, but if they're finally involving themselves in the world… Great. They're far more able to fight Demons than I am. If they'd taken action after Fawcett City I wouldn't have gone to Eden."

Click to shrink...

I don't know who he intended to get, but he clearly had someone who he knew could do the job.

I may like Thana, even if I think her drive to respread her faith is doomed, but I'm not going to just assume she's completely right and accurate about what happened.

Click to shrink...

I mean, how much wiggle room is there here? She clearly isn't associated with Hell (which would be the better choice for getting souls for nefarious purposes), and while the Greek pantheon is less than moral they usually save any creative tormenting of souls for people who deserved it, and those people wouldn't be in the Silver City. So... what threat could Thana have possibly posed? What could she have done with one of their souls that she couldn't have done far more easily with a damned soul? It's clearly disproportionate, because no matter how you slice it, Thana didn't do anything burn-worthy. And, hell, if trying to contact Heaven was what the problem was, how did they expect Thana to know she wasn't allowed to do that, seeing as they haven't talked to anyone about that in centuries?

Oh you're talking about his interaction with the audience. Honestly, I wasn't even considering them. They and the public are really unlikely have to any kind of influence over what happens to Paul or the League so they got a sort of mental write off from me.

Click to shrink...

At least we agree on this much. It's much better than the last multipage argument I had on this topic.