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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Twelve)

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Ambit said:
I haven't had this much of a headache since I'd read Homestuck.
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FFVIII and Legacy of of Kain series are good intros to the more complicated time bs. LoK moreso.

History cannot be undone, it has a cost to redirect the current from the river bed.

However, being uprooted is now part of history, and the person who did do the uprooting. Thus the time traper must exist, but it doesn't matter who is the time trapper, make sense?
 
I would just bring Mandate Earth or all its people over to original time line turning them into temporal clones and make it a stable time loop.

Because does Mandate Paul care about his entire timeline or the people in it.
 
So did Mandate Paul become Trapper Paul in order to shunt off Enlightened Paul before he will be/would have been shifted into Mandate Paul, thus allowing Trapper Paul to break off the Mandate timeline into a groundhog day/week/month/year/decade universe by using the crashing of all the possible timelines caused by Future Dox Legion trying to shut off changes that was actually their own doing...

Whuff...
 
I am so lost.

I think there's four or five intersecting/looping timelines that caused a temporal anomaly that ended up with a version of Paul becoming the Time Trapper and stopping himself from becoming the Time Trapper?

I'm just going to go make dinner while I try and sort out my headache.
 
the vale said:
This is kind of a shit story-line to be honest. It is an interlude of an entirely different set of characters set in an entirely different setting, it has no impact on the original story and allows no character growth or plot progression. On top of that, there is no resolution. Time manipulators are still explicitly fucking about, more temporal problems are going to be engineered and everything is still the same as it always was, with the same source of all the problems, just with a new label.

It's utterly pointless. You could literally have cut the entire thing from the main story and lost nothing - because that is exactly what you did. You added it in, then you cut it all out. It makes me care not a whit.
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Uh dude, the episode was fine. It wasn't pointless from my perspective. We got to see and learn how Time Travel works in this fic, we got to see an alternate Paul that wasn't Grayven or OL and we have a plot line that might get brought up later down the road. Saying that the story-line was pointless and that it won't have any effect on the future in this fic is very presumptive and has no basis other then the fact that you personally didn't like it. Like, calm down fam.
 
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Zeuseus said:
I am so lost.

I think there's four or five intersecting/looping timelines that caused a temporal anomaly that ended up with a version of Paul becoming the Time Trapper and stopping himself from becoming the Time Trapper?

I'm just going to go make dinner while I try and sort out my headache.
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No, what happened was Savage killed the Time Trapper, who was at the time a Maltusian who had been inspired by Paul to make things better, and took the mantle of Time Trapper for himself, thus retroactively making himself the Time Trapper all along. Then Savage fucked with time and caused the Mandate timeline. Then Mandate Paul killed Savage and became the Time Trapper himself, thus retroactively making himself the Time Trapper all along. He then tricked the Legion into snipping culled timelines, which he used to power his own timeline (which he had unanchored from the rest of the universe) to keep it from collapsing. Then Mainline!Paul got involved and the Time Trapper sent him back to the past and Truggs into the culled Mandate timeline to keep the time loop Time Trapper had set up going.

It's one timeline that had been altered then contained in a four day timeloop, then the rest of the universe went back to normal.
 
Oh man. Just had this thought.

What if this episode had actually been about Paragon and Renegade Paul? Instead of introducing a new Paul and having to take the time to build up these new characters so that the audience has some reason to care about the end result, we could have immediately hit the ground running with action/suspense/mystery about just what happened, while giving us the crossover that would have been a lot of fun.

Imagine the set-up here.

The Time Trapper at the end of the last episode punts Paragon Paul and Truggs through time and space and somehow latches onto Grayven, stepping into his temporal shoes, so to speak. The episode begins as any Renegade episode would, but the twist is that Paragon Paul is basically fighting for control over Grayven's "position" in time. It basically becomes an inner battle where we switch viewpoints every other chapter, and Paragon Paul gets to sort of witness how the other half lives, through Grayven's shoes. I imagine that he initially wouldn't realize what happened, given how different Grayven looks and think that he's inside comic!Grayven's head. The chaos of the two "overlapping" becomes an odd temporal distortion that Truggs realizes, so he goes to intercept and try to "separate" the two.

The arc becomes less about stopping Savage or whatever and more about dealing with this "split" moment in time between two consciousnesses, and once Truggs helps him to stabilize through whatever, the next episode is a team-up episode where they try to fix whatever was wrong, on a "ticking clock" because Paul's existence in the Renegade timeline is threatening to collapse the whole thing, or maybe his absence from the Paragon timeline is causing IT to collapse. Maybe Savage is still involved in some way as the ultimate source of the threat of a collapsing timeline that the Legion mentioned.

The two timelines wouldn't be able to merge together without jeopardizing the two narratives that we've read up to this point too much, but there could be some shared elements or even just shared technology. Maybe Grayven shares how to fix Match, for example.

I would have been thoroughly more invested in that than another version of Paul.
 
Because I don't like bleak things:
If TTP creates universes devoid of life, then cannibalizing those timelines doesn't kill anybody, right?

I'd wonder how to do that, but then again I'd wonder how to point and shout "Return!" at someone to put them exactly where you want exactly how you want too.
 
Why people acting like TTpaul is killing people?

He is retroactively causing things to exist or not exist , which dox will retcon back to the standard timeline, but at the end of the day everything that could have existed will continue to always have been existing as it will be.

As explained here, the way things are is the way things were, unless it isn't, in which case the way things change from the way they are is the way they are.

So it is basically impossible to fuck with time, and even if you retconned the prime universe out of existence, you didn't kill anybody; the people you would have 'killed' simply never existed.

You don't kill all the children you don't have.
 
DBDrake said:
Why people acting like TTpaul is killing people?

He is retroactively causing things to exist or not exist , which dox will retcon back to the standard timeline, but at the end of the day everything that could have existed will continue to always have been existing as it will be.

As explained here, the way things are is the way things were, unless it isn't, in which case the way things change from the way they are is the way they are.

So it is basically impossible to fuck with time, and even if you retconned the prime universe out of existence, you didn't kill anybody; the people you would have 'killed' simply never existed.

You don't kill all the children you don't have.
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Every parent, every child, every friend, every neighbor - all of their feelings, their emotions, their thoughts and dreams - every city, every nation, every continent's population.... gone in the blink of an eye. All of that unfulfilled potential, those lives, completely and utterly pointless, deleted.

The above scenario? I'm not talking about time travel there. I'm talking about the Reach destroying an entire planet full of people.

There's no difference between that and time travel. The lives that you prevent from existing, their experiences? All of those lives do matter, and preventing them from existing is no different than actual genocide. Pretending like they don't matter because they no longer exist does not remove you from moral culpability of all that wasted potential, all those dreams unfulfilled.

Now, if we look to canon, Bart comes back from the future to prevent the Reach from destroying the Earth. In those dire circumstances, a time traveler is basically hoping to revert the world, humanity, to something more pleasant. Those lives that no longer exist because of what you did, you could view, as a mercy killing in some ways - maybe they're better off not having to feel that pain of their miserable existence, under a despotic alien ruler. It sucks for those individual people, perhaps, but the end result for humanity as a whole might be more positive. So, they have to risk it.
 
I think everyone's missing one of the huge reasons for this arc. Truggs. The guy's been established as a huge threat to Paul, and this arc trapped him in an unstable time-loop. The entire storyline leading up to this has concerned time-travel and its ramifications, and this arc got rid of the time-traveler who's been the most dangerous to Paul yet.
It also added another variation of Paul other than Injustice!Paul who can physically interact with Enlightened!Paul, whose mission allows him to be benched until any specific arc climax due to the time-fuck nature of it. Which will also bring back Truggs.
It may have been a confusing and admittedly somewhat boring arc, but it's contributing to the number of powerful side-characters that Paul may one day need to call on, while also getting rid of his primary enemy for a lengthy period of time.

It may have been confusing, but it was also a fairly important part of the story.
 
KillingYouNicely said:
I think everyone's missing one of the huge reasons for this arc. Truggs. The guy's been established as a huge threat to Paul, and this arc trapped him in an unstable time-loop. The entire storyline leading up to this has concerned time-travel and its ramifications, and this arc got rid of the time-traveler who's been the most dangerous to Paul yet.
It also added another variation of Paul other than Injustice!Paul who can physically interact with Enlightened!Paul, whose mission allows him to be benched until any specific arc climax due to the time-fuck nature of it. Which will also bring back Truggs.
It may have been a confusing and admittedly somewhat boring arc, but it's contributing to the number of powerful side-characters that Paul may one day need to call on, while also getting rid of his primary enemy for a lengthy period of time.

It may have been confusing, but it was also a fairly important part of the story.
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No, Truggs is still there. The Truggs that TimeTrapper!Paul sent back becomes the Truggs we see in Mandated, then comes through the portal with pre-time-trapper Mandated Paul and is sent back into the original timeline by TimeTrapper!Paul shortly before this most recent episode started to send Paul the messages that triggered Original!Paul getting to this point (the ones the Truggs that enlightened Paul talked to with the Legion claimed, truthfully, not to have sent). It's actually pretty linear, all things considered. I can make a chart or something if you still don't get it.
 
GilliamYaeger said:
The person who started this whole thing was Jevek Jos Jar, who Paul met on Maltus. Inspired by that meeting, Jevek decided to mess around with time in order to strengthen the Controllers against the Reach, in the process cutting himself off from time and becoming Time Trapper Jevek.

However, he fucked up while trying to improve Earth's tech base, and Vandal Savage ended up becoming Time Trapper Savage. Jevek is unlikely to have survived this, since Mandate Paul got the Trapper robes from Savage, who in turn must have stolen them from Jevek.

And, last update, we saw how Mandate Paul killed Savage. In the original time line, Paul then went on to kill Time Trapper Savage, and became Time Trapper Paul in the process, maintaining his universe in a four day time loop. In one of those loops, possibly all of them, Mandate Paul ends up going back to the past, killing Savage, and then joining Time Trapper Paul outside of the universe.

Then Time Trapper Paul teams up with Dox, who hasn't realized that he's been interacting with three different Time Trappers. Enlightenpaul sees the Time Trapper and thinks that he's talking to Time Trapper Jevek, when he's really talking to Time Trapper Paul. TT Paul then sends Enlightenpaul back to the prime timeline, hence why he's nowhere to be found in the Mandate universe, then sends Truggs back to the Mandate timeline to continue the time loop he's maintaining.

And now, Time Trapper Paul is trying to figure out what the hell he's going to do with the looping timeline he's got on his hands, and how to save it before it runs out of energy and collapses.

That explain everything?
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You missed one Truggs has actually gotten into and out of the Mandate universe with memories intact and "working" as an "agent" of the Time Trapper.
 
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