Status
Not open for further replies.
He could always try and get exorcised of Zauriel by father Matthias.

Or... call the cops and say he's being stalked?

Though I'd far prefer he just let him hang around. Especially since you never know when a demon is going to pop up.

Best not to let him see your assimilated demons. I'd be tickled pink if he approves of the re-purposing though.
 
You know, I think this could help serve as a decent example of how Paul's Meta Knowledge can work against him. Almost all of his comic book knowledge before coming to the DC verse created a very negative viewpoint on the Silver City, and after coming to the DC verse that viewpoint was only reinforced through interactions with Constantine and associates (the only people in his social circles to have substantial experience with angels.) confirming that yes the agents of the Silver City have committed some pretty horrifying acts.

So from what he knew and learned he likely came to the conclusion that the angels would be too unbending in their rules to allow Paul to ask or even negotiate for the fruit, if they allowed him to reach that point once he entered the Garden of Eden.

TL;DR Paul seems to have suffered a confirmation bias caused by his Meta Knowledge and now the consequences have come to poke him with a stick.
 
Last edited:
I like this angel. he seems like a decent chap. Though I wonder how he would react when he finds out exactly who's wings are being grafted.

2.1 "Are those Gabriel's wings?"
"yes? do you have a problem with that?"
2."I thought the point of the exercise was to redeem her? "
 
Last edited:
I want the angel to stay forever.

The fact that he seems genuinely harmless and nice, yet incredibly annoying to Paul because he won't bend, is wonderful.

Till this moment I had never considered the non-grayven ol needing a polite, reasonable, token good teammate following him around, but now I don't want anything else more.

I can't even imagine how hilarious it would be to have Paul going around doing his usual stuff with the Angel just politely asking why he is doing various things, and if there might be a less horrible way of doing it.

It would be like aversion therapy. Paul would start being nicer to everyone and thinking through his actions more, just to avoid the reasonable questions and disappointed stare of Zaurial.
 
Last edited:
I like this angel. he seems like a decnet chap. Though I wonder how he would react when he finds out exactly who's wings are being grafted.

2.1 "Are those Michale's wings?"
"yes? do you have a problem with that?"
2."I thought the point of the exercise was to redeem her? "
Point of clarification the wings are Gabriel's if memory serves.
 
Hark the Herald Angels Sing!
Paul is stuck beneath its wings!
Fly to hell and kill Satanus!
Pet Angelus Domesticus!

This chapter please me.
 
Getting.. closer to dosing him with pomegranate seeds. As long as I take his heart out before his superiors find out that he knows how to evil he won't actually go to Hell when they cast him out…

No. No. I'm not doing that to someone whose only crime is to be slightly irritating. But having him following me around isn't acceptable. How do I get rid of him?

Alright this is going from alien mindset to stupidity mindset. 'I'm sorry I had to steal the fruit, given the same choices I'd do it again, but I'm sorry I had to so it.' This is true, this is obvious, and this is what should have been done.
 
You are ignoring content by this member.
Paul is already chaotic good, IMO... strongly chaotic, but still.
Considering his attitude in the last few arcs? He's more Chaotic Neutral. Even if he's doing good deeds, he's doing them for his own self interest/the interests of the people he likes. He's not an asshole or a monster like the more traditional depictions of CN are, but each position on the alignment chart has a broad spectrum in and of themselves. Paul just lands (slightly) closer to good than most.

I... don't think Paul fits on the two-axis D&D scale. He's actually closer to Lawful than Chaotic if you look at things from his internal perspective, since he has a set of axioms that he follows strictly, even if they aren't the same axioms everyone else uses, but Good is relative to those axioms. In traditional D&D terms, he's really more Neutral - everyone should get what they want, unless that creates an imbalance (i.e. someone's wants attempt to override those of others, like wanting to kill someone.) It's in avarice terms he's Good, because he attempts to create outcomes where everyone's desires are fulfilled.

So, strictly speaking, I would define Paul as Avaricious Lawful Good, rather than Deontological Chaotic Neutral.
 
Only genuine repentance counts, so Paul's kind of trapped here...he has a good argument in that he had no other better way, and if this works it's a strong net good from his perspective. If it doesn't work, his theft is on-balance neutral, unless those fruits were serving an unknown but important purpose just being in the garden. The sticking point is that this angel, while seeming to reasonably interpret the absolute word of God, still comes from a totally different ethical perspective.

Paul definitely couldn't have gotten the fruit in another way. Stealing and asking forgiveness was the only option. While it appears that God's ethical commandments to the children of Adam and Eve only apply to their descendants, a blanket prohibition of "no one may take the fruit" pretty clearly means that no fruits are supposed to leave their place in the garden, whether by human, alternate sophont, animal, nonsentient animal, autonomous machine, magical construct, etc.

Soooooo...we're stuck with angel buddy!
 
Y'know what? I like this angel. His earnest honesty and resolution is charming, and I can't wait until either he catches Paul in a "this is why we don't let pragmatism rule all morality"-moment or Paul catches him in "this is why we need to be pragmatic"-moment. Either is fine, though I think Paul kinda needs a bit of a lecture at this point.
 
So, how could have Paul avoided this? I think he could have had Zatanna or father Mathis summon an angel (while he himself was somewhere else) and ask them a few questions. Like "do god's commandments apply to human-like beings from parallel universes that don't inherently have souls?" and "there's a need to break one of god's commandments to achieve a great good - saving a number of damned souls and preventing the hell's advance. Without knowing specifics, would this be allowed or at least open to negotiation?". He would have lost nothing by doing this.
 
He could have just asked for the pomegranate.

He could have. He doesn't know whether he would have been able to get it that way. The angel he's talking to doesn't know whether he would have been able to get it that way. If he wasn't able to get it that way, it is very likely that they would have been better prepared for an attempt by him to steal it afterwards. So he probably would still believe he took the best route available to him at the time if this is pointed out.

I think he could have had Zatanna or father Mathis summon an angel (while he himself was somewhere else) and ask them a few questions.

That might well have worked if he got an angel like the one he's talking to right now. It would not have gone well if the angel summoned was the 'smite first, don't ask questions later' type. Also, there's some contraction about this, but there's the whole 'Leaving the Silver City = Fallen' thing seen in the Sandman works and somewhat in Hellblazer.
 
Last edited:
He could have. He doesn't know whether he would have been able to get it that way. The angel he's talking to doesn't know whether he would have been able to get it that way. If he wasn't able to get it that way, it is very likely that they would have been better prepared for an attempt by him to steal it afterwards. So he probably would still believe he took the best route available to him at the time if this is pointed out.
He could have had his associates ask an angel about breaking some non-specific god's commandment for a greater good / saving damned souls / stopping hell's advances. That gives away nothing but gives him information on the Silver City's policy.
 
He could have had his associates ask an angel about breaking some non-specific god's commandment for a greater good / saving damned souls / stopping hell's advances. That gives away nothing but gives him information on the Silver City's policy.

I touched on this point when I edited my post above. Asking without summoning would be less risky so at this point I think you've reached "but he just didn't think of it and probably still hasn't".
 
Well okay, let's look at this logically. The Garden of Eden was created by the Christian God, and therefore belongs to said Christian God. He built it, his power maintains it, and his servants guard it. He has as authentic a claim to it, and everything within it, as can be imagined. It is, by reason alone, his property. That fruit is his property. Stealing it is like going down to the Bat-cave and stealing the Bat-mobile. Even if you needed it for a crisis that could only be solved by stealing the Bat-mobile, and even if Bruce has a dozen other ways to get around (and probably several back-up Bat-mobiles), it's still his, you stole it, and he has a right to take you to task for it.

Things get even simpler when you realize that what he ultimately wants is an apology, to which you can honestly reply "I am sorry that I felt the need to resort to theft to obtain the fruit," because even if you don't regret what you did, how you did it was indeed regrettable. After all, the premise of ownership is one of the very cornerstones of society, to not respect said ownership is a break of social contract, and a break of social contract, even if necessary and/or satisfying is always regrettable, for the carefully constructed illusion we all call 'modern society' honestly has enough problems without us continuously poking holes in it's narrative structure.

Now, if he tries to twist this into kind of scheme to co-opt you into the Christian afterlife as punishment then you can give him a black eye for being cheeky. So long as propriety is upheld.
 
I... don't think Paul fits on the two-axis D&D scale. He's actually closer to Lawful than Chaotic if you look at things from his internal perspective, since he has a set of axioms that he follows strictly, even if they aren't the same axioms everyone else uses, but Good is relative to those axioms. In traditional D&D terms, he's really more Neutral - everyone should get what they want, unless that creates an imbalance (i.e. someone's wants attempt to override those of others, like wanting to kill someone.) It's in avarice terms he's Good, because he attempts to create outcomes where everyone's desires are fulfilled.

So, strictly speaking, I would define Paul as Avaricious Lawful Good, rather than Deontological Chaotic Neutral.

Hmm. We could try and match him against the MtG color pie? Not super sure about that one either, though. Honestly he could fall anywhere besides green. :/
 
A few things about the 'apple', and God's relationship with Adam and Eve for that matter.

EDIT: Fair warning, raised by a theologian, specifically a Baptist minister (one of the ones who don't suck) who has a Doctorate in Theology and is a very capable apologist (someone who defends their religion by explaining WHY things are the way they are with in their religion's context). This gets long, but is an effort to explain the context of this particular bible story in a way even many self described christians don't generally consider. Most people get a simplified version as a child in Sunday School and rarely spend much time on it once they've grown enough to consider it from a more mature and in depth perspective, or never went to church at all and picked up the basics through cultural osmosis.

THIS IS NOT AN INVITATION TO START ARGUEING ABOUT RELIGION. THEOLOGICAL KNIFE FIGHTS NEVER CONVERT ANYONE AND WOULD EASILY BECOME A MAJOR THREAD DERAIL.
Please direct any such responses through PMs and I'll happily reply though.

First, God specifically said 'Thou Shalt Not eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.' That's all. Nothing wrong with being around it or handling it. Adam and Eve were placed in the Garden to tend to it after all, kind of hard to prune a tree you can't touch.

Second, consider why God did this. Past the whole deal about being born a sinner, Christ's sacrifice and being told to ask forgiveness, one thing that never gets enough attention is that God is not arbitrary. Whenever he says 'Thou Shalt Not' you are expected to pay close attention, because if you go and do what you are being warned off from doing the consequences of your actions are really going to screw you over.

When the serpent tempted Adam and Eve into eating from the Tree he talked them into believing that God was holding out on them, that Knowledge of Good an Evil would make them more like God and that he wanted to hold them back. And in a very toxic way, like Gaunter O'Dimm mixed with Obiwan's 'from a certain point of view' bullcrap, he was correct. God knew and understood both Good and Evil, while Adam and Eve did not. The Garden had everything they needed. It wasn't some Roddenberry-esque post scarcity indolent paradise, they WERE put there to tend to the Garden, but tell me you can go a week without doing anything productive and not get restless. All their needs were provided for, and all they lacked was the Knowledge of Evil, which was foreign to them.

Eve takes a bite, and then gives some to Adam. It doesn't really translate to English very well, but in the original language the syntax leads one to assume that Adam is standing right there beside Eve while she's talking to the serpent, being a useless manblob. They eat the fruit, gain nothing but the Knowledge of Evil, and go from being Nude to realizing they're nekkid and rip up some leaves to hide their fiddly bits with. God enters the Garden for a visit (the understanding is that he does this fairly often) and they hide behind a bush so he won't see their shame. Let that sink in for a minute. It's GOD HIMSELF, the I AM, the omniscient and omnipotent creator of existence itself, inside his PERSONAL GARDEN.

And they hid behind a bush.

I always hear a tired Hank Hill sighing 'dang it Bobby,' at this point in the story.

So God asks them what they're doing. Bare in mind, he already knows what just went down, bit wants Adam and Eve to explain themselves. Picturing God as a stern but caring parent dealing with a particularly stupid and hardheaded child will go a long way towards explaining the context of most of his interactions in the bible.

Anyway, He asks them why they're hiding behind a bush and Adam says they were hiding. God says 'Well yeah, but why?' and Adam says they didn't want to walk around nekkid in front of God. God asks him if he did that ONE THING he was told not to do and ate from the Tree of Knowledge. Adam blames Eve, when he was right there and could have stopped the whole thing, and also insinuates it's God's fault for giving Eve to him.

Good job there Adam. You're probably sleeping on the sofa for the rest of time for that one.

Anyway, long story slightly less long. Adam and Eve rebelled and are now tainted. When Lucifer rebelled he got cast into the Pit till the end of creation and on into eternity past even that. Adam and Eve get booted out into the wild after God kills some of the animals he placed in the Garden and uses their hides to fashion something better than fig leaves for Adam and Eve to protect themselves with. Most theologians will tell you that this is the first example of God's mercy and a foreshadowing of Christ's eventual sacrifice.

Now, how does this factor into Pavlos stealing some of the Fruit to convert Blaze, and the Angel asking him to apologize? God is big on the whole Free Will thing, and has been from the day he created Adam, and tells us not to do certain things for our own well being. Adam was told not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge because he already new Good, and Evil would see him tainted and barred from the Garden, which also means losing access to the Tree of Life and eventually dieing.

Blaze though? While still being a Child of Man and having the capacity for Free Will, she is unable to seek Salvation because the circumstances of her birth means she can't comprehend Good and only has the Knowledge of Evil. Aquiring the Fruit of Knowledge so that she can be something other than a Demon? She and her brother are the only two Demons in existence who didn't choose to rebel against God's will and become a demon in the first place. She never rebelled and was never Cast Out, she was a Demon from the very beginning through no fault or agency of her own. Namely, she is what she is because she never had a choice in the matter and wants to be something else even though she isn't capable of understanding what that means. In that context, I see absolutely no reason God would not allow her to have the Fruit. For that matter, we're already deep into the realm of the supernatural, and while eating the Fruit has some fairly symbolic weight I could see God intervening directly and dropping a Miracle on her.

So, TLDR. God would likely be cool with Blaze eating the Fruit for the same reason the Angel just wants Pavlos to apologize, and both fairly neatly mirror the whole point to Salvation. Literally all you have to do is apologize, to admit your fault and want to be better, to take that very first step, and God covers the rest of the gap and wipes the slate clean.

Now granted, this is the DCU, and while Constantine is an unreliable narrator Hellblazers is still a Thing, so actual Theology and Doctrine can go cry in a corner. That being said, from a theological perspective Pavlos comes off as a bullheaded young man who lets a particularly shitty sunday school experience color his attitude towards a very powerful entity. Zeus the baby eating serial rapist got less flak than this, and 2 hours with any decent priest, minister or theologian would have made this whole thing go a lot smoother. Hell, he could have just ASKED for that matter but let his contempt for the Abrahamic religions to push him straight into a very risky heist, one that could have gone hilariously badly for him with just an ounce of bad luck.
 
Last edited:
ou think they'd dare put anything like this in canon YJ?
Hey, you never know, they're getting more daring on tv. For all we know, Zauriel will turn up in season 3.

Side note on the different depictions/contradictory actions in the source material for this story. God is traditionally a Trinity, three-who-are-one and all that. Have you considered that they may not agree/have different personalities? One part does/supports one thing, one another?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top