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You need a better imagination. These people show up every damned day with the intention of being the ones putting their lives on the line to protect innocent people.

But it's better to not die and save the innocents, so they ought to be working on that assumption. Especially if you're an irreplaceable superhero. Don't take bullets you don't have to, and don't take risks that have little-to-no actual benefit.

Or, to borrow a concept from somewhere on the Internet, if you have time to take the bullet, you have time to push them out of the way instead.

The crash landing is completely irrelevant and i can't fantom why you people keep mentioning it.

I dunno, maybe because you keep claiming that he "chose" to enter Earth jurisdiction? Like, I don't even care about the rest of this particular argument (and if I did, you bring up a few valid points there), but claiming that he brought this on himself for "choosing" to land on Earth is moronic.
 
But it's better to not die and save the innocents, so they ought to be working on that assumption. Especially if you're an irreplaceable superhero. Don't take bullets you don't have to, and don't take risks that have little-to-no actual benefit.

Or, to borrow a concept from somewhere on the Internet, if you have time to take the bullet, you have time to push them out of the way instead.



I dunno, maybe because you keep claiming that he "chose" to enter Earth jurisdiction? Like, I don't even care about the rest of this particular argument (and if I did, you bring up a few valid points there), but claiming that he brought this on himself for "choosing" to land on Earth is moronic.


I said he is in the US/Earth jurisdiction full stop. And that if he didn't want to be in our jurisdiction he should have landed elsewhere. The argument of Earth being the only place he could crash land and survive is wholly irrelevant to the fact he is in our jurisdiction and at the mercy of US 16 laws. Because neither his people nor the organization he recently joined has formal relations with the US 16.
 
And that if he didn't want to be in our jurisdiction he should have landed elsewhere.

See, that's where I can't understand you, because he didn't choose this! Yeah, he's currently under Earth jurisdiction. Sure, fine, whatever. And maybe he didn't act appropriately when he got here; not my business. But don't you dare make it out to be his fault that he crash-landed here in the first place, unless you're willing to accuse Superman of the exact same thing.
 
Well, it means that Superman is at least no more unwise in selecting his uniform than whoever it is that decides what police officers wear is in selecting police uniforms. If he's making a mistake, it's a very common one.

I mean, slightly stupider with the yellow and all, but yes, it's a common mistake. It's just also one that bothers me a lot.
 
so, reading through this conversation, so far as I can see, what @Crimson Doom is saying seems to boil down to 'superman should be like batman' which shows a severe misunderstanding of who and what superman is. something that might be familiar to worm fans is the concept of 'hot' and 'cold' capes (the ones from India) which is apparently the attitude of DC, too. the 'batman' persona and the methodology Bruce uses it with are intended to strike fear into the hearts of his enemies and leave them wondering if he'll turn up at any moment by letting him hide in the shadows. civilians generally won't even know batman's nearby unless he appears to save them or something.
compare that with superman; his goal isn't to scare his opponents or to hide because he's a very different type of superhero. 'superman' is intended to reassure civilians; he can fly around wearing bright colours and show people that they're safe by way of his presence.
what it comes down to and the reason why the costumes that artist made aren't great designs is that they missed something when they said "We're fighting evil, not passing out game tokens at chuck E cheese." about the design of supergirl's costume. it's literally true, sure, but 'hot' type superheroes like superman himself are essentially mascots meant to stand out to and from the crowd. that's what people mean when they say that they're symbols.
 
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See, that's the thing: I literally cannot conceive of any military situation where being noticeable is ever worth the risk of being shot and killed, because being shot and killed is very, very final.
Because helps ensure no friendly fire, makes communication and chain of command clear, and for every one that dies, three more can take their place.
...it's a battle. You should assume everyone's trying to kill you anyway!
But that works on the assumption that the purpose of the battle is to kill/defeat all the enemy, rather then kill the commoners and capture the nobles for money and glory.

And there is a military situation where being noticeable is important even in modern warfare: bait/distractions.
 
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Bright uniforms and fancy hats are because the risk of being killed by random fire is far less significant than the absolute need to be able to command and control whatever part of the battalion your given officer is in charge of, communicate and coordinate with the others and the overall commander, and allow messengers to find them despite the chaos and smoke. Even the basic infantry need uniforms and fancy hats if you want them to be able to figure out where they should be. And flags.

Sharpshooters? You've got arguably a good two hundred years of firearm formations as your main infantry before their threat became a more important issue for officers than having their unit be able to function, and when this happened, they adapted. Militaries tend to adapt, and base their fancy hats and formations on what works.

But no, I'm sure everyone was deeply stupid and more concerned with fashion than winning wars.

(ok they were also often heavily concerned with fashion, but)
 
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truth will eventually out
Is "truth will out" a Britishism, or should this be "truth will eventually come out"?

EDIT: Apparently it is.

Technopathy is a fairly non-obvious power because machines don't have minds. Even computers don't.

So what is there that makes "taking to machines" any different than talking to a spoon or a pair of shoes or any other non-living object?

EDIT: I mean, whatever, a superpower can handle any weirdness. But it's not an obvious power.
A few things.

First off, "techno-pathy" means "feeling via machines", not "feeling of machines". ("telepathy" = "feeling remotely") And this is exactly what happened in Xor's past -- a machine was used to communicate with his brain. The machine itself was not the source of the thoughts being transferred; it was merely the mechanism.

That aside, let's talk about what you were talking about anyway.

Let me refer you to the D&D spell Animal Empathy. Animals have an INT score of 1 or 2, so they don't have intelligent minds as it's usually understood. However, using the spell, you gain the ability to understand the animal's situation, feelings, and motivations, even though the animal in question couldn't have communicated it on their own. Any repair mechanic would LOVE to have this kind of technopathy if it let them understand what was ailing a machine.

And if it gave you a mentally-based remote interface with a computer, it doesn't need to have a MIND as long as it has clearly defined inputs and outputs for you to interact with.

The pinching. THE PINCHING. ;_;

And exactly how well did those ridiculous helmets hold up in combat?
In addition to the battlefield communication aspects that the thread has gone over ad nauseum... The shako, which is probably what you're referring to, was actually substantially better protection than the leather caps it replaced. Metal helmets existed, yes, but they weren't in common use because they're heavy and expensive and in warfare of the time a shako was just as effective for the hits you were likely to take.

See, that's the thing: I literally cannot conceive of any military situation where being noticeable is ever worth the risk of being shot and killed, because being shot and killed is very, very final.

Or, to borrow a concept from somewhere on the Internet, if you have time to take the bullet, you have time to push them out of the way instead.
That's not right at all. Just because YOU can accelerate that fast without hurting yourself doesn't mean you can accelerate someone ELSE that quickly without hurting THEM. Congratulations; if you had taken the bullet, the intended victim would have been fine, but now they've just been unexpectedly body-checked by a superhero.

Isn't it normally a dull blue like the image below when on patrol?
It varies from place to place. Some look like that; some have moved to all-black; some wear a brighter blue shirt and black pants.
 
Tech control is an awesome power. Imagine remotely driving a car into a foe or how wrecked a tech based hero would be if they didn't include countermeasures.

Personally though, I prefer the full magic route. Imagine a detective who could actually ask the scene of a crime what happened?
 
I said he is in the US/Earth jurisdiction full stop. And that if he didn't want to be in our jurisdiction he should have landed elsewhere. The argument of Earth being the only place he could crash land and survive is wholly irrelevant to the fact he is in our jurisdiction and at the mercy of US 16 laws. Because neither his people nor the organization he recently joined has formal relations with the US 16.
Oh my god!

Look, I'm not even being sarcastic, but are you a non-English reader using google translate?

There seems to be a complete disconnect here-
Crash landing implicitly implies it was borderline uncontrollable at absolute BEST (the borderline being enough remaining control to maybe avoid a cliff/ building by a few meters if you are a MASTER pilot)- your point is completely nonsensical since you keep claiming he chose to land an uncontrollable craft on us....... *sighs* forget it.
 
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Hey Mr. Zoat is Zatanna the only one who under went a costume change or did other members of the Team as well, does Kaldur still use Ocean Master's armor and trident or is he using his previous attire and water bearers?
 
... You see the word 'Police' and think 'Militia', don't you?

I see "police" and think "they're gonna end up being shot at eventually", which means they ought to dress in a way that doesn't make it easier to be shot at.

so, reading through this conversation, so far as I can see, what @Crimson Doom is saying seems to boil down to 'superman should be like batman' which shows a severe misunderstanding of who and what superman is. something that might be familiar to worm fans is the concept of 'hot' and 'cold' capes (the ones from India) which is apparently the attitude of DC, too. the 'batman' persona and the methodology Bruce uses it with are intended to strike fear into the hearts of his enemies and leave them wondering if he'll turn up at any moment by letting him hide in the shadows. civilians generally won't even know batman's nearby unless he appears to save them or something.
compare that with superman; his goal isn't to scare his opponents or to hide because he's a very different type of superhero. 'superman' is intended to reassure civilians; he can fly around wearing bright colours and show people that they're safe by way of his presence.
what it comes down to and the reason why the costumes that artist made aren't great designs is that they missed something when they said "We're fighting evil, not passing out game tokens at chuck E cheese." about the design of supergirl's costume. it's literally true, sure, but 'hot' type superheroes like superman himself are essentially mascots meant to stand out to and from the crowd. that's what people mean when they say that they're symbols.

I understand who and what Superman is, thanks very much, but that doesn't mean he should be making it easier for people to hit him. Man of Steel is a good Superman costume to me, because at least it uses muted colors and cuts out the yellow almost entirely.

Because helps ensure no friendly fire, makes communication and chain of command clear, and for every one that dies, three more can take their place.

But that works on the assumption that the purpose of the battle is to kill/defeat all the enemy, rather then kill the commoners and capture the nobles for money and glory.

And there is a military situation where being noticeable is important even in modern warfare: bait/distractions.

I'm not sure how making it easier for the enemy to shoot you is worth minimizing friendly fire. You're dead either way.

I've conceded chain of command as regards old-time warfare, but superheroes are in the modern age and have no excuse.

If three more commanders could take their place that easily, killing commanders wouldn't be so effective.

It's a battle. Political rivals could be looking to assassinate you in a way that gives them an immediate scapegoat, just for one.

You place way more value in the life of an individual when compared tot he unit than most militaries dude.

A random individual, no, but the commanders, yes. They're responsible for doing the strategy that the rank and file can't, so they had better damn well not get themselves killed.

Bright uniforms and fancy hats are because the risk of being killed by random fire is far less significant than the absolute need to be able to command and control whatever part of the battalion your given officer is in charge of, communicate and coordinate with the others and the overall commander, and allow messengers to find them despite the chaos and smoke. Even the basic infantry need uniforms and fancy hats if you want them to be able to figure out where they should be. And flags.

Sharpshooters? You've got arguably a good two hundred years of firearm formations as your main infantry before their threat became a more important issue for officers than having their unit be able to function, and when this happened, they adapted. Militaries tend to adapt, and base their fancy hats and formations on what works.

But no, I'm sure everyone was deeply stupid and more concerned with fashion than winning wars.

(ok they were also often heavily concerned with fashion, but)

See, I'm fine with not-dumb uniforms, but the hats are just... ugh, so dumb! The only consolation is that if everyone's wearing them, rather than just the commanders like I thought, then at least you don't stand out as much.

In addition to the battlefield communication aspects that the thread has gone over ad nauseum... The shako, which is probably what you're referring to, was actually substantially better protection than the leather caps it replaced. Metal helmets existed, yes, but they weren't in common use because they're heavy and expensive and in warfare of the time a shako was just as effective for the hits you were likely to take.

I don't consider better armor that screams "shoot me" to be better armor.

That's not right at all. Just because YOU can accelerate that fast without hurting yourself doesn't mean you can accelerate someone ELSE that quickly without hurting THEM. Congratulations; if you had taken the bullet, the intended victim would have been fine, but now they've just been unexpectedly body-checked by a superhero.

And I'd be dead and unable to save the next victim. And this is preferable somehow? Unless you run the risk of killing the victim yourself (which is possible for some heroes, I'll concede), you don't have to take the damn bullet for them; moving them out of the way is superior.
 
"I'm, um, not part of the Team anymore. So no design documents were necessary."

I could actually see it going that way, for any or all of:

1) wanting to spend time with the father she lost

2) not wanting to be on a League subsidiary team, after what they did to her father

3) the League making it clear (either subtly or explicitly) that they weren't comfortable with her having helped kill one of their members.
 
I am unfamiliar with who that is.
God of Cities from Warren Ellis' Authority. Could do that thing!

See, I'm fine with not-dumb uniforms, but the hats are just... ugh, so dumb! The only consolation is that if everyone's wearing them, rather than just the commanders like I thought, then at least you don't stand out as much.
Different hats for more important people helps command and control a lot. Also, for a very long time, the ability to go out and assassinate the bloke in the fanciest hat simply wasn't there at the scale you are assuming it was, and hats changed when it became a thing.

A lot of officers didn't do strategy and command as such - they were making sure their part of their unit was doing it's assigned job, not choosing it. The people assigning the jobs from the top of the chain were elsewhere, behind the lines and protected, but still close enough to see what was going on. Orders went out from them via messengers, who had a hard time finding the people in the fancy hats they were trying to find and reporting back with unit locations and other messages - anything that improved this was Helpful. Hats.

And for most of the fancy hat period, sharpshooters as sniper-assassins just weren't feasible. Light troops who were better at aiming, sure. Skirmishers who could interfere with the enemy, possibly by trying to pick off the fancy hats and wankers on horses, yeah, but only reliably to the point of disruption. They couldn't stand up to oncoming cavalry, enemy lights could force them back until the light units are just shooting at each other and not the line, and line infantry could just roll right over them if they didn't retreat.

And for a long, long time, the effect of this sniping was minimal compared to the massive benefits of fancier hats for the blokes in charge. And for the big beefy boys, but grenadiers originally had their hats for completely practical reasons, it being somewhat tricky to lob a bomb when your arm knocks your hat off.

Face it - TF2 is right. Hats matter.
 
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I understand who and what Superman is, thanks very much, but that doesn't mean he should be making it easier for people to hit him. Man of Steel is a good Superman costume to me, because at least it uses muted colors and cuts out the yellow almost entirely.

Man of Steel is basically the deconstruction of Superman, though. They darken and mute his costume and then start asking "but what if he's dangerous tho?" And to me, that's the point that's been missed so far. Superhero costumes are about hope, and painting a target, and branding and such, but they're also to make you look ridiculous.

People are afraid of Man of Steel Superman. People are not afraid of Christopher Reeve's Superman, or when they are, they're treated as silly. Yes, the tone of the two is very different, but that's the point. The costume design is part of setting that tone. That's why costume design is even a thing. If it wasn't important, Hollywood wouldn't pay for it.

CR Superman can turn back time by flying around the world against it's rotation, but his costume (and other's) says: "Don't worry about me, I'm a goofball!" It also says "don't worry, Superman is here", but the initial reaction is part of what keeps armies from mobilizing until he's proven not to be a threat.
 
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