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Surprised Grayven's letting her go that easy. I mean sure, she doesn't like this job, let her leave it, but he could've offered her a different position. Something more exciting. Granted, I'm not really sure what all he's doing at the moment, but I'm sure there's something he could offer. He's just decided he should take care of Larfleeze and build up an Orange Lantern Corp of his own, there's bound to be plenty for an adrenaline junkie to do in space. Even if he's not willing to give her an Orange Ring, he's got access to plenty of other technology if she needs it. Vega's not all going to calm down at once, so I'm sure there would be plenty of pirates and slavers to fight for at least a while.
 
To clarify my earlier point: while I consider OL killing his prisoners to be amoral at best, that's not the problem I have with it. I can enjoy reading about a protagonist without thinking they are in the right.

My issue is that I think the amorality of the act creates a characterization issue, because the specific manner in which he did the deed seems tailor-made solely to create a transparent facade of moral self-justification that I think OL, as a desire-enlightened being, has zero use for. For all that his "inhuman mindset" has been held up as an explanation, my problem is I don't think he's acting inhuman enough.

He gave his prisoners a legitimate offer of mercy, under circumstances that he'd deliberately set up to be as soul-crushing and emotionally charged as possible against that offer. What did he want out of this?

If he genuinely wanted them to take the offer, why engineer the circumstances to have the Citadelians as irrational as possible when he made it? If he didn't want them to take the offer, why make it to begin with? If he wanted some but not all to take the offer, then how was the scenario he created designed to select out the Citadelians he considered useful from the ones he didn't?

He could have spaced them all, or ordered them to kill themselves. He could've kept them as his own army. He could've turned them all over to Amalak still branded, with orders to serve faithfully. He could've let Komand'r assimilate them. He could've marooned them, released them from his control, and given them a day, or a month, or a year to think over what they really wanted. He could've released them to let Komand'r get off on their despair and impotent rage, and then killed them all. He could've released them and then re-branded them. He could've done a million different things. Why do it the way he did?

This is an orange lantern fic, so what the hell did he want out of that?

I don't think it had a greater practical benefit than many alternatives he had (as I and others have said, I think the way he did this created a terrible selection criteria for who he spared). I don't think it had a moral benefit measured against conventional morality. I don't think it even had some sort of "let people choose what they want" desire-morality benefit, since he deliberately set it up to be such an emotionally shocking and destabilizing moment when he presented the choice.

To me, the only particular benefit of this specific scenario over his other choices seems to be that he can now say "O well, I gave them an honest choice! Not my fault they didn't take it lololololol!" while still deliberately skewing the circumstances to 'justify' killing as many of them as possible.

I'd find that behavior perfectly in keeping with the nature of many fictional characters. That sort of spurious self-justification is a pretty human thing to do. But OL's not one of them, specifically because he isn't supposed to be entirely human in the way he thinks.

Desire Enlightenment provides perfect knowledge of everything that you want, and how much you want it. It has a lot of upsides, especially for an Orange user. But it necessarily has one downside.

The downside of always knowing exactly what you want is always knowing exactly what you want. There's no comfortable self-delusion about your priorities. You can't convince yourself that "oh, I'm going to go on a diet this year" when you know that you want to eat tasty food more than you want to be in good shape. You can't pretend you value supporting local businesses more than the convenience of shopping from Wal-mart. You can't pretend you value not supporting third-world child labor over not paying twice as much for a cell phone.

And, in OL's case, you can't pretend you value the lives of people you dislike or the principle of not killing helpless captives more than you value the time and effort saved by just shooting them all or giving your allies the satisfaction of revenge or the joy of crushing your enemies, seeing them driven before you, and hearing the lamentation of their... uh, clone-progenitors. Or whatever other things he might gain from killing them.

Hell, maybe killing them really is the morally correct option. Maybe OL really can't see a way to let them live without expending more time, effort, or resources on them that could be better used for bettering the circumstances of better people than the Citadelian. Maybe he considers life imprisonment on some empty planet, or lifetime branding, or invasive neurosurgery and deprogramming or whatever other fate to be worse than killing them. OL may really have some cogent arguments for killing them all.

What he can't do is decide to kill them all, and then pretend to himself that oh, he didn't really want to kill them all. He knows that he did that because he wanted to. He knows exactly what incentives and disincentives he had to make that choice and – unlike just about any normal human – he is psychologically incapable of deluding himself that factor A was the deciding matter when it was really factor B.

And I see the execution scene he set up as having no significant benefit over the alternatives, except for providing delusions of self-justification.

I'm fine with him not being justified.

The issue I have is that he should not be able to delude himself that way, and since the only benefit I see in the course he chose was that transparent fig-leaf of justification, I just don't see why he went that route. It's not optimal for anything else, not even maximizing schadenfreude.




Edit: ...and outpaced by the update. Welp, I'm still posting the above because I think it has value, but I'm going to drop any further characterization-through-morality discussion and let people talk about Grayven for a while.

Also I really need to get back into reading Grayven updates, it's been a while since I followed those. (Stopped reading both when I was on a trip, caught up on the paragon side, didn't catch up on Grayven.)

Edited: minor edits.
 
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You know, Gravy could have had it worse.

Instead of sharing the anti life equation, he could have gone with plan b and taken Gravy to his favorite karaoke bar, kara-pocalips, for father son bonding.

For truly the sight of Darkseid singing Call Me Maybe would have shattered Gravy's mind irreversibly.
 
You know, Gravy could have had it worse.

Instead of sharing the anti life equation, he could have gone with plan b and taken Gravy to his favorite karaoke bar, kara-pocalips, for father son bonding.

For truly the sight of Darkseid singing Call Me Maybe would have shattered Gravy's mind irreversibly.
I'm still waiting for Chester to realize the true depths of Darkseid's evil, i.e. he drank all of their beer.:mad:
 
's still a massacre of a crowd of victims. That it happened at all showed they were no longer any sort of threat to him
"The US military does not condone the killing of unarmed combatants. But this isn't real, so why should you care?"
At best it was a prisoner riot that got out of control at worst a war crime. Though I suppose one could argue there was no formal declaration of war for independence.

I wonder what the team will think of you now...
 
I fully expected the mind controlled Citadellians to be executed on Tamaran. OL giving them a way out can only be a good thing.
 
So your arguments are:
1) Individuals are guilty of every crime committed by their civilisation.
2) Evil is genetic.

I regard both as illogical and offensive.
We already had a bunch of discussions on why being clones doesn't make people evil. And if you regard individuals as guilty of the crimes committed by their entire civilisation then every human alive is an irredeemable genocidal murderer.

Cheshire, as an individual, is as bad or worse than any of those Citadelians, as individuals.

The problem is, the Citadel empire is not the Nazis. Its not few guys up on the totem pole being evil and talking lots of people into helping them do some crime against morality. The overall population of Citadelians is much too small for that, just a few hundred thousands or so people. They are not the Wehrmacht, they are the overseers at extermination camps in this analogy. Nothing redeemable about that. The closest thing which springs up in my head when thinking of Citadel Empire are Collectors from Mass Effect. They are only a bit better at sentience than those bugs, and they are driven by warmorgering overmind. So no, i really have no problem as seeing them as something that should be eradicated. If you genetically engineered and raised a citadelian without implants and without lifetime of the First warping them, its a different story, but as they are, i am just not seeing it.

As for evil being genetic, usually, i would say it is not. But for citadelians? If you copy a douchebag over and over again, and then plug that douchebag into all his copies for the mental conditioning, your entire race will be full of douchebags, no exceptions. There is zero diversity in them, except for the one they gain in their field of work.
 
The Citidel are a race of Hitler fingerpuppets that Hitler could stick his fingers into and wiggle around and program to do things. He did not program them to farm or anything like that--they have Jew expies for that.

Some of them he gave autonomy to.
 
Annnnd we're off!

Personally, I've sort of learned that you have to actually let Mr. Zoat finish an episode before you get all up in arms. Because you don't know where he's going with all thise.

Ultimately I agree with what other people have said, that this test seemed like a half-assed exercise in morality theater meant to let OL feel better about gunning down unarmed prisoners.
Again I will point out that OL gunned down precisely no one. He just stood there while Amalak's defenses did the job. Also, Amalak, Starfire and Blackfire also just stood there along with OL...annnd I don't hear a peep complaining about that. At best OL goaded the stupid ones into charging.

And in my opinion, OL just committed a war crime; like has been pointed out, you don't mind control a bunch of people into destroying their civilization, then stand in front of them immediately afterwards, without any cooloff period, except you're looking for an excuse to murder them.
And he's reinforcing bad habits in Komand'r as well.
Unfortunately for that opinion, to Tamaran and probably every other world under Citadel control, Paul is the Ultra Super Hero of god damn liberation. Also hard to commit a war crime when there aren't any laws or so called "rules" of war pressed upon Paul or his currently small organization. Doubtful also that anyone who might want to prosecute him actually has the muscle to be able to do it if he blows them off. Also, in my opinion, all this "war crime" nonsense is just that...nonsense.

Or he's letting Blackfire get it all out of her system so she can feel properly avenged.

By the standards he's espoused here, neither Conner nor the G-nomes would have survived being decanted. Nor would Match.
I'm not sure what you mean by decanted, but if you're talking about being let out of their tanks, well...funny thing is...Paul is perfectly capable of doing different things to different groups who might have similar origins. Now his meta knowledge makes this even easier. It's not like he's locked in some sort of logic circuit of "Well I killed those clones, might as well kill all clones."

And the whole no options thing just doesn't hold up to inspection.
He could have marooned them in bulk on one planet.
He could have split them up and put them on different planets, or in different sectors of space; they have enough skills to make a living in a technological society.
People keep saying that. He could have, he could have. But I'm not hearing WHY he SHOULD have. I mean other than all generically noble. All that time he would spend doing that? He could be doing literally anything else that he actually WANTS to do.

Paul literally just went with the most immediately expedient option, and the one that is most likely to be actively detrimental to his longterm goals, both with regards to Orange Lantern culture and recruitment, and reputation. Not to mention his relationships.
It's yet another of those decisions that's both ethically and tactically indefensible on his part.
Unless of course it doesn't prove to be actively detrimental to his long term goals, OLC business, and reputation. Because...you know, there isn't anything that says it does. Amalak is standing right there, someone who has done business with OL and who also will probably be telling this tale to others, and he doesn't seem to be bothered in the slightest. As a matter of fact...who is to say that OL doesn't WANT people to be told just what happened here?

He gave his prisoners a legitimate offer of mercy, under circumstances that he'd deliberately set up to be as soul-crushing and emotionally charged as possible against that offer. What did he want out of this?

If he genuinely wanted them to take the offer, why engineer the circumstances to have the Citadelians as irrational as possible when he made it? If he didn't want them to take the offer, why make it to begin with? If he wanted some but not all to take the offer, then how was the scenario he created designed to select out the Citadelians he considered useful from the ones he didn't?

He could have spaced them all, or ordered them to kill themselves. He could've kept them as his own army. He could've turned them all over to Amalak still branded, with orders to serve faithfully. He could've let Komand'r assimilate them. He could've marooned them, released them from his control, and given them a day, or a month, or a year to think over what they really wanted. He could've released them to let Komand'r get off on their despair and impotent rage, and then killed them all. He could've released them and then re-branded them. He could've done a million different things. Why do it the way he did?

This is an orange lantern fic, so what the hell did he want out of that?
So Zoat already said that long term branding leads to many a mental problem, and I love how you lump ASSIMILATION, something even Grayven feels is abhorrent, as something BETTER then plain death. (In a universe with confirmed afterlives.)

But to the point....Did it ever occur to you that perhaps he didn't want anything? That he did not really care either way? Hence his just standing there and doing nothing? Is it possible that he looked at these 800 tank bred soldiers that he in no way needs or wishes to see others harmed by, and just thought of a fancy, English way of going "Meh."

Plus, just look at the tale he's already weaved.

Shows up in Vega and brokers a deal between opposing powers. Showing he can be reasonable with those who will be reasonable. Also openly kicks the hell out of a pirate leader and that he can easily take control of a person.

Breaks up a slave ring, liberates a planet, and installs defenses upon it.

Meets with the Controllers and beings a new Lantern corps (this may not be openly known)

Removes the god damn beast of Okaara and Kills the First of the Citadel

Flattens the Citadel empire, uses their own men, takes their shit, and then mass drivers the shit out of them.

Makes an offer of mercy towards the men he used, and then stands there stone cold as they chose to brave Amalak's defenses because he clearly doesn't give a shit EITHER WAY. Though this will show that if he takes you prisoner, and you don't mindlessly berserk, you can probably leave with your skin.

You know what that all adds up to? A guy, and from him a group, that you REALLY don't want to fuck with. You might want to be all open and reasonable or they might just END YOU.

Best yet? He's not even done setting a rep up.
 
Resolution. Yay.

Paul could at least have had the decency to kill them himself. Not like they could have threatened him even without the robots and forcefield.
Or could they? Did he sit back and let others do the deed because he knew he couldn't bring himself to kill them all after violating them in such a manner?

At the risk of sounding like a broken record: This is not an attitude conducive to benevolence. Or long term sanity.

Eight hundred well trained, physically fit soldiers. Each with the potential to grow and develop into a worthy individual. Each able to contribute to the stability and safety of the region. Lost.
Some portion of Starfire's respect for Paul. Lost.
Some portion of Blackfire's restraint. Lost.

o_O Nothing stopped him doing this with stun weapons and marooning those who chose violence somewhere. Not like he can't put basic survival infrastructure together with a wave of his hand. Given a few years of being hunter gatherers, or just sitting about thinking while waiting for food shipments, they may have become more amenable to redemption.

Paul took the convenient option. Not any of the good options.


Soo basically you're suggesting he "pulled a grayven"?
 
If anything, the orange enlightenement told him he had to stick with the Citidelians until they were safely in somebody else's hands, or they would interfere with his longer-term desires. And he doesn't want to be murderer of helpless people who might be willing to turn over a leaf he doesn't mind them pursuing.

If he were not enlightened by the orange light, but instead were overwhelmed by it, I suspect he'd have just had them slit their own throats. It would have been more efficient in terms of getting what he wants as his next priority: moving on to rescuing his comptroller from a Dominator prison. The Citidelians had become an obstacle with which he needed to dispose. It was only his enlightened understanding of what kind of person he wants to be, combined with his enlightened understanding of still having to prioritize safe handling of dangerous enemy warriors, that had him sticking around this long.
 
He gave his prisoners a legitimate offer of mercy, under circumstances that he'd deliberately set up to be as soul-crushing and emotionally charged as possible against that offer. What did he want out of this?
To me, the only particular benefit of this specific scenario over his other choices seems to be that he can now say "O well, I gave them an honest choice! Not my fault they didn't take it lololololol!" while still deliberately skewing the circumstances to 'justify' killing as many of them as possible.
And apparently I am now Jamie, because I think I know the answer to this, and it's not what you are suggesting. If you assume what happened here is events working as intended, it was arranged this way so the offer of mercy/clemency was only accepted by those who were smart enough to know they were beat, and had enough self control to reign in their emotional impulses when all following them would do is get them killed. He cast "Charm Person" on them, and then had them help destroy their everything. He knows getting them to let that go is basically asking them to eat a turd sandwich. So he is giving them the turn sandwich now instead of soft selling it and risking them having buyers remorse later. Taking a run at him when they are unarmed, surrounded by lethal robot, and OL is wearing a Power Ring is rather obviously stupid, and is not really going to accomplish anything. If they have so little self control they would do that, they are liable to do something harmful later from the sheer powerlessness they feel at the situation, even if it wouldn't help them any. And that might make OL look weak for being merciful in the first place.
 
"The Jedi deserved to be wiped out by Darth Vader for not joining the Empire during the purge of the Jedi Temple."
The Jedi deserved to be wiped out for the mass child kidnappings and total nonsense philosophy they brainwashed everyone with. And the total hypocrisy of preaching peace while serving as military officers and cutting people up with laser swords in order to force them to stay affiliated with a political structure that was blatantly corrupt when they'd rather peacefully break away.

But that's another story.

No one.. going to say anything about today's segment?
 
"The Jedi deserved to be wiped out by Darth Vader for not joining the Empire during the purge of the Jedi Temple."
False equivalence. Unless you mean "they were stupid enough to stick to their principles, and thus deserved to be wiped out for not being clever enough to bide their time in the Empire."

The Jedi deserved to be wiped out for the mass child kidnappings and total nonsense philosophy they brainwashed everyone with. And the total hypocrisy of preaching peace while serving as military officers and cutting people up with laser swords in order to force them to stay affiliated with a political structure that was blatantly corrupt when they'd rather peacefully break away.

But that's another story.

No one.. going to say anything about today's segment?
Not a lot to say. Grayven proves he's a decent boss who is not perfect, but tries to treat his employees well. He seems to have mostly recovered his ability to function. Probably should have tried to offer her more expanded duties, but likely feels it's too little, too late to make the effort and doesn't want her growing dissatisfied and feeling trapped. Better to let her go now.
 
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