Status
Not open for further replies.
Branded ones want to obey the SI. That's it. They don't have a greater ethical understanding that the rest. They don't even have the SI's morals piped over via the ring. Certainly, they would obey him to the best of their ability but they would have little inherent understanding of what he was trying to get them to do.
I don't see the problem. Changing their moral outlook to something more acceptable, while important, isn't the immediate goal. Getting them to act in accordance with Paul's moral standards (be police rather than tyrannical oppressors) merely requires that they obey, not that they understand the underlying rationale.

In the long run changes to their education curriculum and MO would bring understanding. As it does in most civilisations.

There is/was about a million Citadelians. The prime force in charge of Vega for, well someone might tell you how long, i don´t know myself. So, no not really. None of the people Paragon saved and redeemed helped raze a capital city of a planet, send a race back into stone age, condone slavery, send captives to sadistic mad scientists with no ethics, as well as condone crime on interstellar level. As opposed to Siskin, who was burried under gigaton of Fear Elemental crap. I don´t know enough about Abra Kadabra and the Danner Enhanced twins to talk about them. But none of them had evil literally in their genes. Now i am not gonna say Cheschire was that much better than those soldiers but thats where being pragmatic comes in. Thats a whole other cake.

EDIT: In case of response in vein of : But Cheschire was part of League of Shadows that would commit mass murder on planetary scale. Well yeah, but unlike Citadel empire, she is not literally the same guy as her Employer. The only distinguishing quality between Citadelians is the level of implants they have.
So your arguments are:
1) Individuals are guilty of every crime committed by their civilisation.
2) Evil is genetic.

I regard both as illogical and offensive.
We already had a bunch of discussions on why being clones doesn't make people evil. And if you regard individuals as guilty of the crimes committed by their entire civilisation then every human alive is an irredeemable genocidal murderer.

Cheshire, as an individual, is as bad or worse than any of those Citadelians, as individuals.
 
So, no not really. None of the people Paragon saved and redeemed helped raze a capital city of a planet,
Gordanians did that. The citadel forced Tamaran to surrender and then placed a tithe the people of Tamaran have to pay to keep the peace. The Gordanians are the ones that decided to blow the capital and the infrastructure on the technicality that it would make their task as parole officer easier. The Citadelians committed the crime of not caring about the people of Tamaran as long as their tithe was meet, nothing more and nothing else.




send a race back into stone age,
Gordanians did that, the Citadelians left the people of Tamaran with a technological level equivalent or superior to modern day earth, they just left the Gordanians in charge of the place because the Gordanians REALLY wanted to and they had earned that reward with their service.


condone slavery, send captives to sadistic mad scientists with no ethics

This part is correct.


as well as condone crime on interstellar level.

They where the local law enforcement and keepers of the peace on vega, so by all metrics they couldn't commit crimes because they wrote the law. The worse you can claim is that they condone slavery, but the Spider Guild demands a tithe of warm bodies they can use as living nurseries for their larvae and they want those warm bodies to be sapient and smart creatures with complete understanding of their suffering because they probably get off on the fear/panic they produce as their larvae eat them alive.

Its like @Mr Zoat own arguments went he decided to help the Spider Guild instead of genociding them come back to bite him this time.

"Are humans deserving of genocide because we used to/still use slaves and often worked them to death (slaves from conquest)", i mean he was VERY quick to defend the xenoxidal spiders going so far as to compare them to humans. Well if you compare the Citadelians to humans, then the comparison is even more accurate, so why isn't he justifying this genocide by claiming the Citadelians are worse than humans? Because in good conscience he can't.


My guess is that as an author he saw the MANY complaints about Paul helping the Spider Guild of xenoxidal maniacs and then decided to genocide the Citadelians to appease the general desire for "senseless" blood lost, but instead has caused massive amounts of cognitive dissonance because he helped the guys that are by all metrics the WORSE influence on the sector and the galaxy while genociding the group that has standard rules of engagement and a logical target assessment doctrine (money money money), one of them has comparable morals to humanity and its not the spider guild.
 
Last edited:
Guys I told you Grayven was the real hero.

You didn't believe me, shame.
 
Thank you, corrected.
I don't see the problem. Changing their moral outlook to something more acceptable, while important, isn't the immediate goal. Getting them to act in accordance with Paul's moral standards (be police rather than tyrannical oppressors) merely requires that they obey, not that they understand the underlying rationale.
Oh, it would have been possible. Just not easy, reliable, popular or quick.
Gordanians did that, the Citadelians left the people of Tamaran with a technological level equivalent or superior to modern day earth, they just left the Gordanians in charge of the place because the Gordanians REALLY wanted to and they had earned that reward with their service.
The Citadelians did quite a lot of shooting the ground at the end of the war. But yes, the Gordanians were the ones keeping it up.
 
...This was unnecessary butchery, on reflection. It'd have been very little effort to stun them and maroon them somewhere.
You know...one day I'm going to figure out just why this is considered so much nicer. So...he knocks them out, and drops them somewhere. Where they get to eek out a living, reminded of what they lost, reminded of what Paul made them do. Completely helpless to get off whatever rock they were left on as they occasionally fantasize about a revenge that they know good and well they could never achieve. Burdened for the rest of their lives that essentially ONE MAN wiped out their entire empire...and filled with the impotent rage that there never is and never was ANYTHING THEY COULD DO ABOUT IT. All so they can basically just live to death because they weren't even WORTH finishing off.

Yes...how kind of you.

And suddenly Grayven is the more heroic of the two. You guys remember when the worst thing OL did was kill a body-snatching lich in as lawful a manner as he could?

Honestly at this point letting Komand'r watch just so she can get off on them having a complete existential breakdown at the horror of what OL forced them to do to their own civilization just seems needlessly perverse and fucked up. Not just what they were forced to do actually, what they were forced to do and were forced to like doing. There was no reason for her to be there other than to see something horrible happen and get off on it.

So I'm going to guess he's never going to tell anyone on Earth what he's been up to, because I doubt Alan would ever speak to him again if he found out about this. Unless he's suddenly super cool with attempted genocide, mind rape, and the execution of those who were angry about being mind-raped into committing genocide against their own species.

I had no problem with OL removing the Citadel as a threat through any means possible. This was needlessly brutal and fucked up seemingly just so Komand'r would be more loyal to him.

So all the people Grayven hacked up with his sword thingies don't count? Or that time he soul assimilated two nigh immortals despite feeling bad about doing it to Nabu, all because it was basically the quickest, easiest and more informative way to get it done?

Personally? Paul is being the BEST kind of hero right now. The one who doesn't put a tiny band aid over gaping cut. The kind who doesn't play chase-after-the-mass-murdering-psycho-who-just-killed-a-bunch-of-people-after-breaking-out-of-his-vacation-home-again game. The kind who GETS. SHIT. DONE.

Sure there is plenty of need for heroes like Superman, flying high as a shining inspiration to what humanity could be. Then here is OL, precision removing cancer with blood on his scalpel.

I know Candle was as close as they could get to his surname but he really ought to just go old school and take his job as it. Paul He-who-gets-shit-done.

As for Blackfire, I'm sure it was all very satisfying and therapeutic. Pleasing justice always does feel nice. Also, he gave them a choice...really not his problem they succumbed to idiocy/rage. They clearly saw what would happen, and decided to go for it anyways in the hopes that maybe one of them could get to him....and I guess flail impotently against his barrier.

Well not only am I fairly sure the Three Green Lanterns are going to know roundabouts what went down, Hal almost certainly won't keep quiet and Guy will probably want to know if Paul wants to talk about it. Beyond that....this is OL, the guy who stands around explaining his powers and limitations to potential/actual enemies. Like explaining that Goldy Pirate was somehow resistant to his constructs...and then handing her over to the very people who can weaponize that. Yeah, I can easily see Paul stated just what he did to Diana/Alan and then explaining just WHY he did it.

Yes, it was needlessly brutal for him to just stand there while automated defenses did their job. I mean I guess he could have made it worse...played some horrible music or something.

Leaving ethical considerations aside, he's handled the situation pretty poorly. He could have separated first, given them some time to stew on it before they made their choice. Some of them might have rushed to kill him on impulse or out of mob mentality, but would otherwise have been open to servitude, if they'd made their choice alone after some time to think it over.
He handled the situation by giving them a choice, and then not caring any more then he had to about whatever the hell they were going to do. Which was none.

Paul could at least have had the decency to kill them himself. Not like they could have threatened him even without the robots and forcefield.
Or could they? Did he sit back and let others do the deed because he knew he couldn't bring himself to kill them all after violating them in such a manner?
Why waste perfectly good ring charge?

Eight hundred well trained, physically fit soldiers. Each with the potential to grow and develop into a worthy individual. Each able to contribute to the stability and safety of the region. Lost.
Some portion of Starfire's respect for Paul. Lost.
Some portion of Blackfire's restraint. Lost.

Eight hundred well trained, not loyal to his cause in the slightest, single minded clones kept from growing for their entire lives. Each with the potential to be a pain in the ass and cause problems down the line. Each able to make the same choice the remaining 11 made and not mindlessly throw away their lives like the barely sentient meat sacks they were. Eight hundred completely unneeded and non-special soldiers (I.E. nothing unique about them like say Captain Comet) who are literally a dime a dozen and if more soldiers are needed, they can be found/hired all over the sector.

Debatable. Also irrelevant. She is free to leave his organization at any time she likes.

Debatable. Satisfying some of these long buried desires might even help her in the long run. Or at least show possible problems to Paul that he can then move to put her in touch with someone that can help.

o_O Nothing stopped him doing this with stun weapons and marooning those who chose violence somewhere. Not like he can't put basic survival infrastructure together with a wave of his hand. Given a few years of being hunter gatherers, or just sitting about thinking while waiting for food shipments, they may have become more amenable to redemption.

Paul took the convenient option. Not any of the good options.
Why. Should. He. Care?

Good is debatable. It really is.

The villain and serial murderer Cheshire was granted redemption despite being worse than any individual Citadelian soldier.
She was also lucky enough that 1. He felt guilty for nearly crushing her. 2. She is the sister of someone who was in his in group, who he upset and wanted to smooth relations over. 3. He's attracted to her. 4. He was pleased at the effort put in and stuck with it. 5. Possible OLC candidate.

Yep. In the grand universe of things it wasn't even remotely fair. But that's exactly how OL rolls. There exists want he wants, and what he doesn't want.
 
You know...one day I'm going to figure out just why this is considered so much nicer. So...he knocks them out, and drops them somewhere. Where they get to eek out a living, reminded of what they lost, reminded of what Paul made them do. Completely helpless to get off whatever rock they were left on as they occasionally fantasize about a revenge that they know good and well they could never achieve. Burdened for the rest of their lives that essentially ONE MAN wiped out their entire empire...and filled with the impotent rage that there never is and never was ANYTHING THEY COULD DO ABOUT IT. All so they can basically just live to death because they weren't even WORTH finishing off.

Yes...how kind of you.



So all the people Grayven hacked up with his sword thingies don't count? Or that time he soul assimilated two nigh immortals despite feeling bad about doing it to Nabu, all because it was basically the quickest, easiest and more informative way to get it done?

Personally? Paul is being the BEST kind of hero right now. The one who doesn't put a tiny band aid over gaping cut. The kind who doesn't play chase-after-the-mass-murdering-psycho-who-just-killed-a-bunch-of-people-after-breaking-out-of-his-vacation-home-again game. The kind who GETS. SHIT. DONE.

Sure there is plenty of need for heroes like Superman, flying high as a shining inspiration to what humanity could be. Then here is OL, precision removing cancer with blood on his scalpel.

I know Candle was as close as they could get to his surname but he really ought to just go old school and take his job as it. Paul He-who-gets-shit-done.

As for Blackfire, I'm sure it was all very satisfying and therapeutic. Pleasing justice always does feel nice. Also, he gave them a choice...really not his problem they succumbed to idiocy/rage. They clearly saw what would happen, and decided to go for it anyways in the hopes that maybe one of them could get to him....and I guess flail impotently against his barrier.

Well not only am I fairly sure the Three Green Lanterns are going to know roundabouts what went down, Hal almost certainly won't keep quiet and Guy will probably want to know if Paul wants to talk about it. Beyond that....this is OL, the guy who stands around explaining his powers and limitations to potential/actual enemies. Like explaining that Goldy Pirate was somehow resistant to his constructs...and then handing her over to the very people who can weaponize that. Yeah, I can easily see Paul stated just what he did to Diana/Alan and then explaining just WHY he did it.

Yes, it was needlessly brutal for him to just stand there while automated defenses did their job. I mean I guess he could have made it worse...played some horrible music or something.

He handled the situation by giving them a choice, and then not caring any more then he had to about whatever the hell they were going to do. Which was none.

Why waste perfectly good ring charge?



Eight hundred well trained, not loyal to his cause in the slightest, single minded clones kept from growing for their entire lives. Each with the potential to be a pain in the ass and cause problems down the line. Each able to make the same choice the remaining 11 made and not mindlessly throw away their lives like the barely sentient meat sacks they were. Eight hundred completely unneeded and non-special soldiers (I.E. nothing unique about them like say Captain Comet) who are literally a dime a dozen and if more soldiers are needed, they can be found/hired all over the sector.

Debatable. Also irrelevant. She is free to leave his organization at any time she likes.

Debatable. Satisfying some of these long buried desires might even help her in the long run. Or at least show possible problems to Paul that he can then move to put her in touch with someone that can help.

Why. Should. He. Care?

Good is debatable. It really is.

She was also lucky enough that 1. He felt guilty for nearly crushing her. 2. She is the sister of someone who was in his in group, who he upset and wanted to smooth relations over. 3. He's attracted to her. 4. He was pleased at the effort put in and stuck with it. 5. Possible OLC candidate.

Yep. In the grand universe of things it wasn't even remotely fair. But that's exactly how OL rolls. There exists want he wants, and what he doesn't want.
It's called "not committing mass murder with a hypocritical fig leaf when they pose no actual threat to you". This wasn't justified or right- it wasn't justice. It was unnecessary slaughter of a dazed, helpless population.

But I see you need some alone time over your love of hard men making hard decisions while hard.
 
Last edited:
I wonder how Paul is going to top this, maybe utterly destroy several organizations or species at once, create some sort of weapon of mass destruction and use it repeatedly without any real 'reason', maybe steal the ingredients to bake forty cake which is about four 10s which is just so terrible.

My money is destroying an entire alternate dimension/universe/plane of existence.
 
It's called "not committing mass murder with a hypocritical fig leaf when they pose no actual threat to you". This wasn't justified or right- it wasn't justice. It was unnecessary slaughter of a dazed, helpless population.

But I see you need some alone time over your love of hard men making hard decisions while hard.

Amazingly, that's not what I was talking about. What I was talking about is why it's somehow seen as kinder, more moral, to force someone to live what is actually a rather cruel existence, instead of just getting it over with. Example? You've committed a vile act against me (not YOU, you, but I hope you get it) and I spend a great deal of time tracking you down. After a tremendous fight, I am the victor. I left with two opens. A. I finish you off right there. B. I lock you in a small cell. You will never get out. You will be fed, but nothing to your taste perhaps. You will get little time out in the open, but will always be reminded that it is a cage. You will NEVER get out. You will exist. But you will NOT live. You will sit in your small cell until age or illness take you.

Now...how is that kinder?

Mmmm...Well while I DO dearly love a hard man who is hard. Unless I'm feeling rather submissive that day I don't need him to make an decisions.
 
The kind who GETS. SHIT. DONE.

By sparing and helping the spider guild and genociding the Citadelians.

Cognitive dissonance.

If the Reach deserves to be genocided then the Spider Guild deserves to be genocided even more.

Again the Citadelians aren't much worse than imperialist humans, so the fic leaf defense used to justify helping the spider guild applies a hundred times more on the Citadelians.

My only problem with the genocide of the Citadelians is that Paul should stop trying to justify it with bullshit when he helped the guys that are ten times more deserving of contempt.

He can't even claim to have choosen this out of utilitarianism, because the Citadelian military, their contacts and their alliances are a much better and more valuable business partner and ally than the People of Tamaran.

So it wasn't because of utilitarianism.
It wasn't because of moral outrage.
I am not even sure it was because of a bias caused by his knowledge of comics because he was very quick to ally with the Guild.
 
Koriand'r grimaces. "And you have mechanical soldiers rather than living ones because you think that they would not have the stomach for it."

He tilts his head left and then right. "There are units that wwwould. It's really more than I don't want them to get into the habit of it. Batch killing is something one should only do after careful consideration, not on a whim or because one has convinced oneself that it is standard operating procedure."
Still evil, but Amalak is the kind of evil one can work with.
 
Irony is the wrong word, but I find it interesting that Koriand'r, especially after witnessing this, will likely be completely unable to use the unique abilities of the orange light because of her revulsion at the concept of being controlled by someone else. A good portion of her dialogue up to this point has been saying that it would have been better to kill the Citadelians rather than control them, and before that her revulsion at being controlled by the Ophidian. She basically has, in terms of functionality, a non-restricted power ring with no special abilities but all of the downsides of an ordinary orange ring.

Yeah. I'm pretty sure Kori is either going to give up the ring soonest, or she's going to be talked into using the ring until a ring more suited to her personality can be forged. Compassion or Hope fit her best, me thinks.

Komand'r has the drive for orange, and with the right therapy, she'd be a damn effective OL. She reminds me a lot of Grayven.
 
By sparing and helping the spider guild and genociding the Citadelians.
Hey, don't blame me. I was in camp "Throw the spiders into the sun"

And Ugolino has outed me as a man who likes hard men who are hard. I don't know how this mastermind cracked my security, but there it is. Hmm...in regards. I don't know anything about Zoat...but judging by fanart for Orange Lantern 2814? Yeah...I could work with that. :whistle: Wait....that's not the point here. Damn it Ugolino! You distracted me with thoughts of man-sex! My only weakness!....well that and those strawberry shortcake rolls...fucking things are delicious.
 
Last edited:
Put like that, one has to consider the possibility that Mr Zoat himself has been evil all along.


If that is the case then we should be worried this fic is going to end in a cliffhanger and the uptades will suddenly stop... He first gets up hooked with a daily release and then stops and feeds in our suffering.
 
In all fairness... killing is much less evil in a universe with an afterlife. It's more like a life imprisonment without a chance for parole.... unless you have sufficient platonic weight, in which case, you'll get resurrected the next time the universe reboots.
 
I think the biggest issue here is the weird dissonance, like people said.

OL specifically let the Spiders live, he didn't even act morally repulsed about them.
 
If that is the case then we should be worried this fic is going to end in a cliffhanger and the uptades will suddenly stop... He first gets up hooked with a daily release and then stops and feeds in our suffering.

If he did that then he couldn't feed off of all the hate the renegade updates generate or the endless morality debates.

Yes, the secret is finally out, Zoat is the hate entity from Star Trek.
 
In all fairness... killing is much less evil in a universe with an afterlife. It's more like a life imprisonment without a chance for parole.... unless you have sufficient platonic weight, in which case, you'll get resurrected the next time the universe reboots.
The killings didn't take place on a planet with a... how did that one Green Lantern put it? An unusually active arcane matrix?
 
OL specifically let the Spiders live, he didn't even act morally repulsed about them.
When he first encountered the Guilders from that ONE NEST, they had already stopped all behaviour that might have caused him to intervene. Since they were apparently willing to work with their neighbours without falling back into foul habits, he allowed them to do so. Should they revert to type -or if he encounters another Nest that has never changed- he would most likely reconsider.
 
So I'm going to guess he's never going to tell anyone on Earth what he's been up to, because I doubt Alan would ever speak to him again if he found out about this. Unless he's suddenly super cool with attempted genocide, mind rape, and the execution of those who were angry about being mind-raped into committing genocide against their own species.
Considering that Alan fought actual Nazis and the Citadellians are basically slightly nicer space Nazis I don't think that encounter would go nearly the way you seem to think it would.
 
When he first encountered the Guilders from that ONE NEST, they had already stopped all behaviour that might have caused him to intervene. Since they were apparently willing to work with their neighbours without falling back into foul habits, he allowed them to do so. Should they revert to type -or if he encounters another Nest that has never changed- he would most likely reconsider.
I've actually been meaning to ask about this for a while.
When you first had Paul talking to the Spider Queen it seemed like she was trying to explain that her faction were bioengineers with the implication that they were trying to work on more neighbor-friendly reproduction methods before Paul cut her off with one of his slightly annoying "I already know everything about you" mini-monologues.
With that in mind and the obvious "interest" he showed while playing bodyguard to the Spider Queen is there a good chance of adorifying spider-hybrid children rushing to welcome Daddy home the next time he visits her hive?
I'm sure he left plenty of trace DNA about during that stint if only from when he was "massaging" the Queen...

The Zamorans and @Datcord I'm sure would approve...:oops:
 
With that in mind and the obvious "interest" he showed while playing bodyguard to the Spider Queen is there a good chance of adorifying spider-hybrid children rushing to welcome Daddy home the next time he visits her hive?
I'm sure he left plenty of trace DNA about during that stint if only from when he was "massaging" the Queen...
Fortunately for the SI, Guilders are far too genetically dissimilar from humanoids for that sort of engineering to happen. She could create Guilders with an appearance more pleasing to Humanoids (something like the Gaim did in Babylon 5), create Guilders with strong xenophilic tendencies (probably only in the social sense of the term) or maybe create a modified clone of the SI. That last one would be difficult and (have heard about the Citadel) she would most likely be aware of the possibility of it really pissing him off and scrub the project.
 
Fortunately for the SI, Guilders are far too genetically dissimilar from humanoids for that sort of engineering to happen. She could create Guilders with an appearance more pleasing to Humanoids (something like the Gaim did in Babylon 5), create Guilders with strong xenophilic tendencies (probably only in the social sense of the term) or maybe create a modified clone of the SI. That last one would be difficult and (have heard about the Citadel) she would most likely be aware of the possibility of it really pissing him off and scrub the project.
Aww....
I guess they'll just have to adopt.:p
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top