Eh, it works fine enough as cover art for Year 1, since Teekl is there for most of it aside from the first few and very last episode. With Year 2 we should have a whole new cover with SI's new space!friends.
With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Twelve)
- Thread starter Mr Zoat
- Start date
- Status
Eris is probably going to show up, at some point, as the stereotypical Green-Skinned Space Babe. Paul has upgraded his options from 'an entire planet' to 'an entire galaxy' and now he's not working on secret plans and seriously, kiss someone.
It's her own way, perhaps, of reminding him to stay a little bit grounded.
Also: How is the Ophidian going to feel about all of this? She's got some idea of Paul's plans - contact the Controllers, convince them to create an Orange Lantern Corps on behalf of himself and the Ophidian...
But she really does not like Guardians, and the Controllers may be pretty bad at 'tact'. On the other hand, they might be willing to go with her and Paul and a few Darkstars to crack open the Vega System and pull out the OCPB from Larfleeze's clutching fingers...
From the moment he knew of Grayven's existence, Lantern Jordan's been almost reflexively confrontational.
I think Grayven's attitude has been needlessly antagonistic, but not too much more so than Lantern Gardner.
Ganurath
Literal Enthusiast
- Location
- A Valid Location
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I can't help but wonder if Zatara was aware of what Nabu did while under the influence of Klarion's mind control shenanigans.
Obloquy
CrossMyHeart And HopeToDie, StickANeedleInMyEye
- Location
- the Physical Realm
Paul should have put in, "If Mister Zatara were a woman, like your Court Sorceress Magala, would you have allowed her to remain in bondage? No, wait, scratch that actually.
"If Mister Zatara had not made that deal with Nabu, or Nabu had refused, would you ever have allowed Nabu free reign and membership in the Justice League while he was possessing Zatanna's body? Because Mister Zatara was under no obligation save his own human decency to make that deal, and Nabu had no reason except pragmatism to accept it."
- Location
- United states
In his defense he may not have considered that as a possibility unless someone like Paul pointed this out.
Obloquy
CrossMyHeart And HopeToDie, StickANeedleInMyEye
- Location
- the Physical Realm
Actually, I sort of do. I haven't found the exact WoG entry where he said this, but according to Zatanna's entry on the TV Tropes page:
Basically, the writers needed a reason to get Zatara out of the picture and give Zatanna an interesting character arc. They went with this one, since it would also tie into bringing in Dr. Fate, even though there were better options (because they required more work) available.
And, to be honest, this type of thing fits exactly with most comic book plots. It just doesn't fit with the quality we've come to expect from the otherwise excellently plotted out Young Justice.
Then I believe I read somewhere that they were going to do another arc/mention about Zatanna in the League and Fate, but there were budget cuts or time constraints so they cut it.
shepsquared
Erratic Aussie
- Location
- Melbourne, Australia
I mean, Teekl wasn't in much of the story recently. I thought she was being written out because she and the Sphere were basically unimportant window dressing.
Ask Greg Archives : Gargoyles : Station Eight
So as a side thing, in canon in the sidelines people may have attempted to remove the helmet unsuccessfully.
So as a side thing, in canon in the sidelines people may have attempted to remove the helmet unsuccessfully.
As a sidepoint, since we know it actually was somewhat consensual, since the host wasn't pushing for freedom because so much was getting done, this was an issue that could have been resolved with better communication, over murder. With Constantine being an unreliable ally, numerous people who could have been saved by the Lord of Order will now likely die horrible and painful deaths, or be enslaved by supervillains and dictators unnecessarily.
"Zatara - after seeing all of the things that Nabu did with his time, was astonished that there was so much work to do. With Nabu still being almost constantly active he didn't think that pushing the subject of his liberation was a good idea."
Whatever work was being done that Zatara thought it worth not constantly trying to yell at Martian Manhunter for help won't get done, and lots will die.
This was done, notably, in part by forcing a morally good technologically coerced sentient cat to take part in a magical ritual that probably lead to their death, directly overriding their desires, so it's not like he has any unified opposition to mind controlling people into unpleasant situations. But he protected what he values. The notion that he is morally superior to the justice league in this is questionable.
"Zatara - after seeing all of the things that Nabu did with his time, was astonished that there was so much work to do. With Nabu still being almost constantly active he didn't think that pushing the subject of his liberation was a good idea."
Whatever work was being done that Zatara thought it worth not constantly trying to yell at Martian Manhunter for help won't get done, and lots will die.
This was done, notably, in part by forcing a morally good technologically coerced sentient cat to take part in a magical ritual that probably lead to their death, directly overriding their desires, so it's not like he has any unified opposition to mind controlling people into unpleasant situations. But he protected what he values. The notion that he is morally superior to the justice league in this is questionable.
Last edited:
A child that was made from his genetic material, without his permission. Oh, and was quite possibly programmed to kill and replace him.
I don't think the controversy is about Superman. It's partially because we see more of Connor's perspective (and are therefore sympathetic), and partially because a man's supposed to Take Responsibility. In the original comics, Connor was a lot more independent, and I don't think people expected Superman to be his dad when he came back from the dead.
He... didn't ask a telepath to help with the 'programmed to kill him', so I feel confident that it was more the former than the latter. (Whether because he didn't think of the latter, or thought it not worth checking.)
Yeah, it's understandable - as Paul points out later, it's unfair to ask him to pay attention to Kon or arrange help for him beyond the League standard. It was, in a sense, an opportunity to go above and beyond what could be expected... and, hey, Superman didn't want to. That means he's... average. He deserves no particular scorn or appreciation for his actions. Maybe some sympathy.
- Location
- US
In this universe, superheroes do not go bad.
Think about it. How many superheroes, who are billed as such, become villains in the DC verse? Sure, there are a few villains whose backstories are heroic (Sinestro comes to mind), but those people are billed first and foremost as villains. How often does someone actually switch sides?
It doesn't happen.
Fate was a hero. The entire world knows him as a hero. And he became a villain the moment he kidnapped Zatara. Nobody has experience with this. What do you do when a hero does something so obviously evil in a world where that has never happened before? What do you tell the world to not disillusion them, without risking the status quo which currently allows the heroes to do as much good as they do?
What do you do when the DC verse becomes ever so slightly more like the Wormverse?
The Justice League didn't have answers for these questions. And I can't blame them for this. It just doesn't happen in their world. Heroes are heroes, villains villains. The only way they ever switch sides is through temporary mind control.
Nabu's actions were simply so outside of their range of experience that they didn't know how to react.
Think about it. How many superheroes, who are billed as such, become villains in the DC verse? Sure, there are a few villains whose backstories are heroic (Sinestro comes to mind), but those people are billed first and foremost as villains. How often does someone actually switch sides?
It doesn't happen.
Fate was a hero. The entire world knows him as a hero. And he became a villain the moment he kidnapped Zatara. Nobody has experience with this. What do you do when a hero does something so obviously evil in a world where that has never happened before? What do you tell the world to not disillusion them, without risking the status quo which currently allows the heroes to do as much good as they do?
What do you do when the DC verse becomes ever so slightly more like the Wormverse?
The Justice League didn't have answers for these questions. And I can't blame them for this. It just doesn't happen in their world. Heroes are heroes, villains villains. The only way they ever switch sides is through temporary mind control.
Nabu's actions were simply so outside of their range of experience that they didn't know how to react.
Paul has already coerced a sentient being with technlogy to engage in a magical rite which likely lead to their death, Teekl. More likely, consent with regards to magic and technology is often a tricky thing to navigate when it's not clear overt mind control and the person isn't screaming in protest (unlike Teekl). How can they really be sure how much coercion is involved?
I'd like to point out that back in Displaced, after the Roanoke Five had been dealt with, Batman was getting on Constantine's case about "killing" Blackbriar Thorn:
It's just that no one in the thread appeared to have noticed it due to Nabu stealing Zatara's body shortly afterward. It also seems to conflict with what we know of OL's intervention in Shiruta. Nobody got on his case about slaughtering the invaders there, you'd think after Thorn helped murder hundreds of thousands of children that Batman wouldn't care if John killed him.
I just thought of something and apologies if it's already been discussed but if after he started talking in orange quotation marks Paul knew everything he wanted and why and after talking in yellow quotation marks Siskin presumably had the same for fear then what does that mean for Guy?
- Location
- England
Are... you arguing that Paul is on the same level as Nabu here? I'm not quite sure what your point is but I'm going to address this post like that was you were going for since you quoted a post talking about Nabu being a villain and doesn't actually mention magical coercion at all.
That's a spectacular example of false equivalence and an incredibly flawed point for the following reasons:
1: Teekl was already dead. Assimilated.
2: Paul did not know it would... let's say destroy her.
3: Teekl had no free will since the assimilation.
4: Teekl was on the villains' side before the assimilation.
5: And I really can't stress this enough. Teekl. Is. A. CAT.
It's a cat! Not a person! Not a sapient! Credit where it's due for not claiming such and correctly calling it sentient but it's still just a god damned cat!
If you want to make this point, you still can. The assimilation of Teekl might apply. Doctor Morrow would be even better. Even then he was still a villain openly attempting harm on people but it's a far better example than the reanimated shade of a murderous animal.
Didn't Truggs assimilate Morrow?
- Location
- England
... Oh, right. Completely spaced on how that went down. My bad. I guess there isn't really a valid comparison between Paul and Nabu then.
Weird that I forgot that but I seem to be the only one that remembers that first encounter with Teekl it was trying to kill the team.
So many points, here...
From Wonder Woman:
...& while we're at it, just HOW did the League-members manage to keep their plans out of Nabu's awareness...???
From Hawkman:
What Hawkman & others are obsessed about is that Nabu is gone. They behave as though this was a 100% successful operation. While both sides agree that Nabu should've released Zatara, the League refused to accept Nabu's destruction as an option, & now many of them treat "SI" as though this was his PRIMARY goal, rather than his 'worst-case' plan. Even as "SI" speaks, they overlook this point when he repeatedly brings it up.
What both Hawkman & Superman overlook is that "SI" is freely reporting his actions, just as fast as his hospital-recovery allowed. This is NOT self-justification, this is CONFESSION, presented when his actions can no longer be blocked by them. There's no attempt to lie, evade, or hide from consequences. There's no blackmail here. If arrested, he'll not fight to avoid arrest - instead he's told them, IN ADVANCE, what his courtroom defense will be. Win-or-lose, he's accepting the consequences of his choices. Everything he's done since he awoke in the hospital has been part of cleaning-up the messy loose ends left in the wake of this operation, & that includes this de-briefing before the League.
If he wanted AGREEMENT, he'd have talked to them before acting. He's not there for FORGIVENESS, but for their COMPREHENSION, so that they can pass a properly-informed judgement upon him.
From Wonder Woman:
She seems reluctant to face the fact that he HAD a team - just not the Justice League. It must really hurt to suddenly see just how much of his trust she had lost.
That's EXACTLY the sort of thing that "SI" needed to know about! He could've been part of the planning! He couldn't ask any League-members about possible plans without risking a leak that could get back to Nabu & get his guard up...
...& while we're at it, just HOW did the League-members manage to keep their plans out of Nabu's awareness...???
From Hawkman:
- You knew the League's plans for Nabu, Hawkman. If you knew as little about these plans as "SI" did, would it still look like an 'overreaction' to you?
What Hawkman & others are obsessed about is that Nabu is gone. They behave as though this was a 100% successful operation. While both sides agree that Nabu should've released Zatara, the League refused to accept Nabu's destruction as an option, & now many of them treat "SI" as though this was his PRIMARY goal, rather than his 'worst-case' plan. Even as "SI" speaks, they overlook this point when he repeatedly brings it up.
- The League kept their OWN side of this equally secret for the SAME 8 months, Superman. & if "SI" felt 'justified', then why would he bother volunteering these answers? UNLIKE a supervillain, "SI" is freely submitting himself to the judgement of his peers.
What both Hawkman & Superman overlook is that "SI" is freely reporting his actions, just as fast as his hospital-recovery allowed. This is NOT self-justification, this is CONFESSION, presented when his actions can no longer be blocked by them. There's no attempt to lie, evade, or hide from consequences. There's no blackmail here. If arrested, he'll not fight to avoid arrest - instead he's told them, IN ADVANCE, what his courtroom defense will be. Win-or-lose, he's accepting the consequences of his choices. Everything he's done since he awoke in the hospital has been part of cleaning-up the messy loose ends left in the wake of this operation, & that includes this de-briefing before the League.
If he wanted AGREEMENT, he'd have talked to them before acting. He's not there for FORGIVENESS, but for their COMPREHENSION, so that they can pass a properly-informed judgement upon him.
Last edited:
shepsquared
Erratic Aussie
- Location
- Melbourne, Australia
Why would anyone criticise someone who responded to a massive invasion of a sovereign nation by what may have been aliens with equal force and how is it equivalent to someone with much less power who got taken captive?
My theory based on what we've seen:
Guy knows that Guy is Guy at all times. He also has perfect awareness of the fact that he is Guy, and of what he has decided to do.
I think that, in the sense that 'Avarice' can be roughly seen as 'Desire/Greed/Want/Personal 'should be' ', 'Will' can be roughly seen as 'The conviction/determination/certainty with which decisions are carried out'.
Based on the reactions of Paul to the Medusa Mask, it probably also gives him the ability to mostly no-sell emotional effects which do not come from within - if someone tries to fill him with rage not stemming from himself, then Guy can just go, "Uh, no, I'm Guy and Guy doesn't feel angry about that."
Not official canon, yet. (But here's hoping!)
Also, to respond more specifically to some of your points:
Yeah, Wonder Woman maaaaaybe doesn't want to face this right now.
The League never actually advanced a very serious plan. They didn't so much hide their plans from Nabu as... when Nabu said, "No" and left they accepted that. More importantly, the possibility of a telepath detecting their plans wasn't a problem, because they didn't feel betrayed by J'onn J'onnz, and Nabu may not have been otherwise checking for such plans or may have accepted that their plan was basically to do nothing until they could present a full solution that required no effort on his part.
Yeah, Superman, Wonder Woman, et al are kind of forgetting that the reason Paul hid this from them was operational security and... because he saw them lying, badly, to make sure that a slaver could keep his slave.
How Paul presents his "I will testify honestly" is definitely blackmail-flavored, even if it's not blackmail. He's saying that, if he is arrested, he will testify honestly and completely, without regard to protecting them - but because he has eight months of built up betrayal-anger-pain-scorn-hate, he's choosing a confrontational path.
This is... the purpose of revenge, in a sense. Someday the League may look back on this and realize, the Lords of Order may look back on this and realize... This is karma. When they released evil into the world, when they hurt others - the world responded, others responded. Harm others, deceive others, and you will ask others to harm you, ask others to deceive you.
There is a reason that when I referred to the 'base urges' and 'grand ideals' that the Guardians would excise, I associated Rage and Justice, and Greed and Beauty. Perspective matters, context matters.
Last edited:
@Mr Zoat:
I'll try to do better.
I wasn't planning for you to clean-up my mistake for me, but when I went back to delete my badly-located copy of this thread (after pasting it into a more proper place), I could find no button that allowed me to [undo/delete] my own entry, sorry.
My apologies, Good Sir.
I'll try to do better.
I wasn't planning for you to clean-up my mistake for me, but when I went back to delete my badly-located copy of this thread (after pasting it into a more proper place), I could find no button that allowed me to [undo/delete] my own entry, sorry.
The Guy Abides.
The Bushranger
In the Danger Zone
- Location
- TSAB Asura
All entirely logical and reasonable, with the classic "blind men and the elephant" phenomeon applying.
Also, as I was already musing, It's worth noting that to the members of the League without arcane knowledge, it's entirely possible some of them might have assumed Zatara and Nabu had made a Binding Magical Contract, with attempts to undo such things being...unwise.
I've been triggered! Harry Potter flashbacks. The humanity.
- Status