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ally is telling. Not friend, not teammate. Ally.
Well, she fought in WWII, when the Soviet Union was one of the Allies. OTOH, Nabu was doing exactly that, if not worse, to Zatara.

Look, I can do a spoiler of the reasons behind the decisions of individual League members if people really want. That isn't information the SI has access to, and it will come up once he gets back to Earth and everyone has calmed down enough to talk about it rationally. But it won't be a story piece, it'll just be a big list and it probably won't make people happier.
It's less a matter of 'making me happy,' as 'will I find it more plausible than the mind control answer?' The latter currently makes a lot more sense than several of the JL members acting the way they have been, Diana especially.
 
Okay, so given that Zoat's planning to release some spoilers here shortly, I guess I'll get my thoughts out of the way now so I can participate in that discussion, maybe append a spoilered section to the end if he posts before I do. Who knows?

So, to start; the main conflict of this arc is Nabu of Cilia.

Jamie's done a lot to convince me he's not as awful as I thought, but I'm American, and therefore have a huge cultural... thingy... about personal freedom. Ultimately, I don't know that I'd have reacted any different to OL given the same circumstances. Was what he did right? I think so. It would have been better to separate Dr. Fate, and maybe I'd have worked more towards that end, but killing him wouldn't have bothered me any more than it does OL. I'm very much an "in-group" kind of guy, and I have an escalation problem. I don't see his thought process as too alien, really, which I guess makes me a bit alien, but I knew that.

That said, in Nabu's position, I'd have done what he did too, at least up to a point. Of course, our differing personal philosophies mean I'd rather have died a long way back than end up as a helmet reliant on others to have agency, but assuming I got there by my own choices somehow, yeah, I'd have held someone hostage. Probably Wally, though. I doubt I'd have been as trusting as Nabu was there. Definitely Zatanna, if I'd let Wally go by some miracle. I wouldn't have traded her for her father, sworn by magic or no. Of course, I'd be working on a way to separate us and let me work on my own, likely via golem, but I'm just a fundamentally different person from Nabu, and putting me in his shoes would always result in me leaping out of them as soon as possible. It's hard for me to condemn his individual actions, but his pattern of actions leaves me little sympathy for him, as I see his problems as self-wrought.

So then, we come to the actual episode, and the plan.

This episode, in my opinion, is kind of a wreck. That's not really Zoat's fault though. Well, mostly. Let's break it down.

A lot of this rests on the idea that Nabu's treatment in the series is a large part of what lead Zoat to write With This Ring, alongside a love of DC, and rational uplift fiction in general, so if I'm wrong here, my argument kind of falls apart.

Okay, so I think Zoat's a pretty excellent writer, and that's a large part of his problem. He set this story arc up years ago, and he's got a lot of passion for it, but ultimately, he's just too good for this plotline. It's not believable in the setting he's created. (Hell, it wasn't believable in vanilla YJ.) Trying to continue with it is straining his fic, because the internal logic, which otherwise runs rather smoothly, grinds to a halt as he tries to include it. This may have become apparent to him over hundreds of small updates, but if so, they were too numerous to go back to attempt to fix. A flaw in his posting style? Perhaps.

I've seen a lot of accusations that the League get poor treatment, or are 'put into storage' when offscreen, and I think this is why. As much as Zoat may wish to develop these characters, if he goes too far with it, the Nabu situation loses any semblance of sense it currently retains. That's not really a good reason to avoid 'properly' characterizing the League, but if you hold that fixing this plot thread was part of the point of WTR, then you start to see why he'd do it anyway. If he gave them the same treatment he gives other characters, proper motivations, sensible backstories, self-consistency, it would just naturally butterfly the Nabu situation away. Why?

Because the Nabu situation is bad writing, and Mr. Zoat just isn't a bad writer.

So we can see why he'd hold the Justice League back, leashing them more to canon than other parties in the fic. What about his bizarre habit of skipping stuff?

Well, the most egregious example, at the end of the fight with Nabu, I'd have actually liked if it occurred during a different fight. It makes sense for him to get knocked out at some point in his career, after all, but I think a fight built up for years was a poor choice for it. So why do it?

Well, one thing I've noticed about Zoat's writing across the story is that he doesn't handle emotionally driven decisions very well. He's simply too reasonable. I mean, he practically pioneered a way to tell us what characters were feeling in their dialogue without having to show them acting on it. I think the colored text is kind of genius, personally, but I'm a more logically driven person myself, and emotion's pretty opaque to me. Having it displayed there is a huge help to me, but it's maybe not the best for actually learning to express emotion via believable character action.

(Additionally, OL's empathy vision fills the same role. Show a character's feelings via shorthand. You'll note, though, that he usually has it toggled off, and so Zoat doesn't have to consider emotional motivations too often.)

I think that OL had to fall into a coma here so that Zoat could come at the situation from a more reasoned, less emotional perspective. The emotional responses a more temporally fresh league might portray may be outside his comfort zone. At first, this seems disproved, since the league initially only learns of the situation much later, barely before they speak to OL, in fact. But, imagine if they'd found out as it was happening, or just at the last moment, too late to stop it? Much more interesting, narratively, but there's practically no way to avoid an all-out brawl believably. That's an issue, because it means that when OL returns to the Earth, when Zoat actually intends to deal with most of the fallout, those involved would still be pissed. Hell, they may not have let him leave in the first place. This way, everyone will have calmed down, and we can talk about it as reasonable people.

The problem, of course, is that that's super unsatisfying. We've built up this huge emotional investment, and instead of an explosive catharsis, we get a leaky balloon, to be revisited and dissected after it's already fully deflated. But I just don't see how it could be anything else.

We actually see this on a smaller scale with the debrief. We skip Wonder Woman's reaction, and the League's as a whole to the 'supervillain' comment, perhaps the most emotionally charged remark made. In fact, the League gets very little chance to respond at any point, because Batman drives the debriefing continually forward, while OL does a mic drop and walk off at the end.

Even when Diana comes back to talk to him in the most recent update, OL shuts her down rather than participate in an emotionally charged discussion.

This is also why I suspect we'll never see Zoat write an extended League focused meeting on the situation, when OL isn't present.

A lot of people are arguing that it must be mind control, but I really disagree. I think that's certainly a way to resolve this, but it wouldn't be much more satisfying than what we've gotten already because when it comes time for the emotional payoff, we'd run into the same issues we've seen across the course of the fic, and which I've discussed above. It simply won't be satisfying.

Of course, I could be wrong, but even if I'm not, I'll keep reading. I genuinely enjoy this story, and Zoat's style and writing. It's simply that no one's perfect, and that's okay.

What do you guys think? I'm not expecting Mr. Zoat to respond in depth, because anything he could say is too much into spoiler territory, but I'd love to hear what you think.

tl;dr No. Learn to read. I'm not holding your hand.
 
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Immortals with their heads stuck, socially and technologically, several centuries in the past is a common trope. Themiscyra is that, except as an isolated nation instead of one individual.

Since the idea you mentioned is horribly sexist, you might want to make it clearer whether you support it or not.
I would think that being upset Themyscira messes up the "Girl Power"(OMG! I just realized "Power Girl" is "Girl Power" switched around!) trope would show that Science doesn't support the statement "If civilization had been left in female hands, we would still be living in grass huts."
 
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Hey, does the empathic vision come from Orange Enlightenment or Paul's soul? Because if it's the former, I imagine Guy would get the power too.

Also, now that invites no longer come by unanimous vote, I guess we can't assume the league is in agreement about any position they take from here on out. I wouldn't be surprised if there are a few members who wanted to come clean to the world, but got outvoted. It seems likely to me that some of them might just follow the big three's lead on things, too.
 
Wait, what? The whole point of requiring unanimous agreement is so that you can't do terrible things and hide behind "It wasn't me, it was 'the group' who decided." Those two statements seem kind of contradictory to me. Like she's saying that she didn't think it was a good outcome but her hands were tied, while at the same time saying yes she supported the outcome, that's why she voted for it.
Also, I think voting goes in designation order, so Wonder Woman would vote third.
So in the previous chapters, OL took note of the fact that Hawkwoman was extremely pissed off. Was that just a normal reaction to what happened to Nabu, or something deeper?
She's an aggressive person and reacts to people being angry at her by being angry back?
Basically made an account solely to post this, but there's no way this isn't mind control at this point, right?

Every update everyone starts talking about how very odd this situation is, and how nobody seems to be doing anything about it, but nobody seems to jump to the obvious conclusion of it being mind control.
I think a more likely scenario is that they are all completely blindsided by this and haven't been able to make an adequate response while being bludgeoned by the SI's ranting. I imagine that if they had a day or so to calm down, think about things, and come up with a response then they would seem fine. They're all just kind of reeling in shock now, and emotions are high.
I think it's time for OL to release the information he had about Nabu, and let the general population beat it into the League's collective skulls that what they did was not acceptable.
I think that would do more harm than good.
You'll note that Kon and M'gann have moved from 'why do this' to 'why not tell us' and, I think, have been shifting their own positions to account for the new information.
A large part of that is because they had no personal involvement in voting Nabu onto the League, and the SI wasn't being confrontational with them.
They have only one absolute law, and that law is no killing.
That's... Not true. While individuals may shy from lethal force, it's not an absolute rule for the League as a whole. Nabu all but certainly murdered Dark Druid, and believed he murdered the Terror thing, while being a League member. Diana killed people in WWII as a member of the Justice Society. The SI killed people in Shiruta and no one even chastised him for it. Major Atom was fine with going to assassinate Mordru. They were all ok with killing sentient robots. So they will avoid lethal force if at all possible, but it's far from an absolute rule.
Zoat you could just end the fic with Paragon leaving for space and I would be happy.

I got burned too many times with the recycled in space trope.
You're perfectly welcome to quit the thread when he does leave Earth. Why do you attempt to demoralize an author who gives us this story of his own free time, at the expense of literally every person in this thread aside from you, because you feel like the story might not be to your liking in the future?
 
Another point that may be important: The orange light is fundamentally selfish. Paul has channeled it in positive and constructive ways, but he's still primarily making the world a better place so that he and the people close to him can live in a better world. The bit that's relevant to the current issue is that he fundamentally cares about Zatana's pain more than he does about whatever "big picture" issues may have motivated the League regarding Nabu.
 
I wonder if there's any parallel to be had between the League's tendency to excuse Nabu and Paul's tendency to excuse Luthor.

"Oh, it's such a pity that this brilliant man can't let go of his irrational ideological blinders. If he would only turn away from The Light he could do such great things for humanity." You know if Luthor "joined the Justice League" (metaphorically speaking) Paul would probably not poke too hard at all kinds of questionable shit I'm sure he's done. All the corpses and ruined lives he's left in his wake and the crimes that could even still be fixable if Luthor would own up. Would Paul have ever demanded the Luthor fix any of them, or would it have been all, "Glad to have you on board Lex, the past is the past."
 
Going berserk is never a reasonable response, and rage is also not a reasonable response. Rage can certainly be a reasonable emotion or state of being in response to an action, or statement, but not as a response on its own.

We live in a civilisation, we should strive to be civil.

When we know that we're outraged about something, examine it, and then respond civilly to the thing that provoked the emotion.
That's all well and good, but what they do with their personal beliefs is none of your business. If a person wants to be angry at some things, no one has the right to tell them to stop. Also, your being a troll. They obviously don't fly into a blood rage. 'Berserk button' is a colloquialism.
 
The reason that I didn't want to post this is that the SI is acting with incomplete information. Having that information visible to the reader puts you in the position of being able to make out of context judgements about whether he was right or not, and from there say 'he should have done this, the author just said that would work better', and from there conclude that he or I just hate Nabu and that's why everything happened.

This is completely the wrong way to approach it.

The reason why the SI talked down to the Justice League isn't because I the author wanted to call Mister Weisman to account for his dubious canon characterisation. If I wanted to do that I could just e-mail him for a non-answer or put it in one of the thousands of non-story posts I've posted in this thread alone.

I wrote the scene as I did because the SI was very angry and so decided to take an uncharacteristically confrontation viewpoint. And it didn't help him! He made a lot of people with whom he had a good relationship and whom may have been sympathetic to him on the whole Nabu topic hostile to him instead. Remember that thing Grayven said about Zatanna not feeling the psychological pressure to put an opposing viewpoint if Wallace did? This is the other side of that. He's made them feel attacked as a group, and that will make them less inclined to see things his way.

I don't know why Mister Weisman had the League behave the way they did in canon. The time skip took me by surprise, and when it wasn't mentioned again I put it to the back of my mind. But there is no way that the SI as written from the beginning wouldn't behave as he did here.

With regard to the 'Nabu and Zatara came to terms during the time skip' theory, I regard that as being the equivalent of the Mass Effect indoctrination theory; a product of fan disbelief that the writers could have [written something that bad/written the Justice League so out of character]. As I have said before, there is evidence that Zatara was still wearing the Helmet in series 2 and at best a mild hint that he wasn't, Mister Weisman's mealy mouthed attempts at obfuscation notwithstanding. Similarly, I regard mind control as a cheap cop out. Characters should be allowed to own their mistakes.

For those of you still having a mare about something that happened in Earth 16 canon, here's my draft of the reasons why they might have reached the point they did. Remember, this is my attempt to rationalise something I really don't get. For the purpose of this story it is an approximate guide only to what will eventually become canon.

Plastic Man - wasn't aware there was any issue concerning Zatara or Nabu. Fate was that guy from the Justice Society, right? Like Wonder Woman and Tornado? And he's pretty good at magic?

Atom - was under the impression that Zatara was a voluntary host and had effectively quite the League because Nabu could do that stuff better and they couldn't both work on it at once. Was not aware that Zatara no longer had any time as himself.

Accomplished Perfect Physician - considered Zatara's sacrifice one that was not merely good for Zatanna but for the world. Would probably have been happier if they had a timeshare arrangement, but didn't feel strongly about it.

Doctor Fate - considered his ability to act freely more important that Zatara's life or Zatanna's happiness.

Red Arrow - Found it creepy, but was of the belief that there wasn't anything he could do about it anyway. May have changed his view if Nabu had acted up in other ways.

Icon - was under the impression that Zatara's arrangement with Nabu was voluntary, as it had not occurred to him that what actually happened was a possibility. In both the sense that he didn't know that it could happen or that the existing League members would have tolerated it.

Guy Gardner - hadn't read the report on what the possession is like for the one being possessed. No one around him seemed to be particularly troubled by it, so assumed that it was a temporary arrangement at worst.

Red Tornado - was of the belief that Nabu would moderate his position, given time. If true, it meant that a difficult and extremely risky potential confrontation could be avoided.

Captain Marvel - was prepared to differ to the judgement of the senior heroes on the subject. Did ask Shazam about it, but was told that Nabu arrived on Earth after he stopped leaving the Rock and that they'd never really had anything to do with each other.

John Stewart - Busy. Took Batman's acceptance of his friend's 'utilisation' as proof that things were in hand.

Black Canary - assumed that Nabu's possession was irrevocable.

Major Atom - assumed that Fate was -at least to a degree- a merging of Nabu and Zatara, and was not aware of the sensory depravation aspect. Would most certainly have been unhappy about it if he had, though I don't know what he might have done to change things.

Zatara - after seeing all of the things that Nabu did with his time, was astonished that there was so much work to do. With Nabu still being almost constantly active he didn't think that pushing the subject of his liberation was a good idea.

Hawkwoman - initially found the situation uncomfortable, but didn't know any of the participants well. Nabu gave her nothing 'extra' to react against, so she didn't think about it further.

Hawkman - was monitoring the situation carefully. Tried obliquely to discuss the matter with Batman at least once.

Green Arrow - assumed that once Nabu put some roots down and got it into his head that he wasn't just going to be dumped again, he'd let Zatara out. After Artemis mentioned the SI and Zatanna leaving the mountain for the duration of Nabu's stay, he began to have second thoughts and eventually tentatively raised the issue with Nabu. Who promptly told him to butt out.

Martian Manhunter - could still hear Zatara's mind, and noted that he didn't sound unduly distressed most of the time.

Aquaman - didn't have an immediate solution and was busy running a country. Batman knew Zatara best, and if he thought keeping him around is a good idea then he deferred to his judgement.

Harold Jordan - didn't really think about it. He had other work and Nabu wasn't making further trouble. Would have reconsidered if something was thrust in his face.

Flash - assumed that Nabu would eventually negotiate a change in position, as he did when Wallace was possessed.

Wonder Woman - as a result of a Themysciran upbringing, tends to be disproportionately respectful of arcane life forms. This is in part because she knows what they can do when angry. Since Nabu wasn't being evil in any other way, she decided that direct confrontation was more likely to be counterproductive than do anything useful. Did intend to gradually work on him.

Batman - was working on counter-Nabu techniques in a somewhat more active way than he was working on anti-other League member techniques. Was not anywhere near a point where he would want to try any of them. The SI finds this out upon his return.

Superman - accepted Nabu's word that Zatara wanted him on the League. Again, without any extra evil conduct, he deprioritised dealing with it.
 
So, once again, at every level, we see a failure to communicate! Very appropriate, very in character, and it handily explains why the vast majority of the League didn't really object, and even those that might have kept it on the down low. Fitting.
 
Martian Manhunter - could still hear Zatara's mind, and noted that he didn't sound unduly distressed most of the time.
Wait, what?

If Nabu's host could still be contacted telepathically... Argh! Give Giovanni a remote controlled bot to interact with his daughter! It's not like it's outside technological capabilities of parties involved. Hell, link him to Zatanna just to let them talk! Argh! Giovanni is a terrible father.

Also, totally called it on Nabu actually being constantly busy.
 
Ugh, that's gonna hit Zatanna badly.
I'm not surprised, really. If there weren't a need for Lords of Order and Chaos, why would they exist? That there was a backlog of things to do was an idea raised many times in the thread, after all. Knowing that wouldn't have changed my actions at all, in that situation, except to brief John that he'd have responsibilities if he decided to ascend. Kilderkin and Zatara ought to be able to enumerate them between the two of them.
Wait, what?

If Nabu's host could still be contacted telepathically... Argh! Give Giovanni a remote controlled bot to interact with his daughter! It's not like it's outside technological capabilities of parties involved. Hell, link him to Zatanna just to let them talk! Argh! Giovanni is a terrible father.

Also, totally called it on Nabu actually being constantly busy.

That might or might not have worked, but Nabu still wouldn't have gone for it either way. He considers his own needs paramount, as stated in the WoZ.

EDIT:

Remember, this is my attempt to rationalise something I really don't get.

Also, I was super right. At least about that bit. Am I feeling smug? I'll just say it's not uncommon for me to feel that way and leave it to your imaginations.
 
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I can understand most of the initial reasoning among the League reading that, but the fact that as far as I see only 2-3 of them even gave Zataras situation any consideration when building their own opinion is deeply disturbing to me. Especially the once that though it was irreversibel, they didn't even try to reach out except through halfhearted attempts.
 
I can understand most of the initial reasoning among the League reading that, but the fact that as far as I see only 2-3 of them even gave Zataras situation any consideration when building their own opinion is deeply disturbing to me. Especially the once that though it was irreversibel, they didn't even try to reach out except through halfhearted attempts.

Yeah, it is. Thankfully,

Remember, this is my attempt to rationalise something I really don't get. For the purpose of this story it is an approximate guide only to what will eventually become canon.

there will be some elaboration and embellishing to make things more... reasonable.
 
I wonder if Giovanni has learned enough that he might consider becoming a Lord of Order himself.

On the whole, they don't seem to be bad guys, they just have the whole blue/orange morality thing going on. Especially with the amount of work he saw Fate doing, it might be something he'd consider.
 
I don't know why Mister Weisman had the League behave the way they did in canon.
I think this is the central part of why I don't like that storyline. Not only does it not make sense to me, the usual response of waiting and having faith in the author to provide a reason for how it happens in universe doesn't apply, since you don't know why this happened either.

If the author himself doesn't like what happens and thinks it doesn't make sense, how is a reader ever supposed to like it? After-the-fact rationalisations aren't really satisfying here. There are sometimes scenes in story where you can see how it all will come crashing down long beforehand and just want to scream at the characters to stop being stupid.

This is worse, because not even the author understands why the characters act that way. And at that point I have the question why it is even part of the story to begin with. It's not like you are forced to treat any particular storyline as your holy script that may not be changed under any circumstances. There have already been so many butterflies changing the world your Paul lives in that keeping this one maybe-plothole for not readily apparent reason makes it even worse than it is in the original, at least to me.
 
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The most interesting part to me is-

That Zatara himself wasn't sure how hard he should be pushing to be freed. He apparently wasn't sensory deprived but instead got to see Nabu constantly busy doing important-seeming things. He was probably learning quite a bit about magic and arcane lore. I'm also guessing that in the state he was in, he didn't see passage of time in quite the same way. He seems to have been more or less thinking, "Once things slow down..." not realizing it had been the better part of a year and things weren't slowing down.
 
and from there say 'he should have done this, the author just said that would work better'
Well you're not wrong, however I'm fairly sure readers have been back-seat-opinioning since Thread One on SB. Having a bit more or less info is unlikely to change the situation.

That said, thank you for this explanation.

Black Canary - assumed that Nabu's possession was irrevocable.
Don't know much about the character. Is she usually this wilfully ignorant? There are several League members, and indeed people on The Team, who could have corrected her misconception.

Zatara - after seeing all of the things that Nabu did with his time, was astonished that there was so much work to do. With Nabu still being almost constantly active he didn't think that pushing the subject of his liberation was a good idea.
He was a hero after all. Sacrificing for the greater good is fairly central to his character.
Also ironic that Zatara and Nabu were, at least in general, in agreement as to the necessity of Dr Fate's work despite the unwilling possession.

Martian Manhunter - could still hear Zatara's mind, and noted that he didn't sound unduly distressed most of the time.
Shame he never mentioned this.

I wonder if Giovanni has learned enough that he might consider becoming a Lord of Order himself.
Being a LoO isn't a matter of knowledge or a title, it is a description for a being linked to the dimension of Order.

Although I can well see Giovanni trying to ascend and get John fired from the position.
 
What the SI did reminds me of Batman and Wonder Woman after the Tower of Babel and Max Lord/Brother Eye thing. They were on the outs for a while, but adventures/time to cool off/time to think would allow them to see points of view. On the League side at least. Time could allow them to see Paul's heart if not his head was in the right place. A comment many Batman has said of many League members in the multiverse.

Of course, I could imagine it funny if Paul brought the the Batman and Wonder Woman examples... along with the bombshell of them being fictional in his universe... for an omake or something.
 
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