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Wonder why he doesn't bring up Nabu's
"Several counts of hostage taking", "subjecting Zatarra to severe malnutrition", "not turning fugitives to the proper authorities".

Cause really. Those shoud really knock the JL off their high horse.

....It would be hilarious if by the time OL came back, he found the League acting like the Lords and his team being the scrappy underground resistance under the leadership of the Harmony(Constantine) and Discord(Eris).

Or the Injustice scenario. Because Injustice 2 is coming out, and he's made some cracks in the League.

Although at that point both of him(P+R) will need a drink....
 
Basically made an account solely to post this, but there's no way this isn't mind control at this point, right?

Every update everyone starts talking about how very odd this situation is, and how nobody seems to be doing anything about it, but nobody seems to jump to the obvious conclusion of it being mind control.

If Zoat thought this behavior was in line with reasonable human thought, that is, that it isn't particularly odd that a person in this situation would act this way, that'd be one thing. However, we have seen other characters perspectives on the Nabu situation, and literally everyone who isn't in direct contact with him agrees what he has done is reprehensible. Nobody except Kilderkin has thought Nabu's actions were in any way justifiable, and even Kilderkin acknowledged that the action was a bad one, just that it served a greater good, hence being open to negotiations at all. Yet, everybody in the League unanimously agrees that Nabu is totally fine? Nobody caused enough of a stink to, at the very least, not vote him in as a member? How on Earth could that happen?

So, as far as we can see, the decisions of the Justice League are in-universe bad. Either the Justice League is entirely bad people - which does not seem to be the direction the story has been framed at any point so far - OR the League was somehow compromised. Consider that we are dealing with a magic user, and mind control can definitely happen, the latter seems bleeding obvious. That is ignoring the fact that MEMBERS OF YOUNG JUSTICE AND THE LEAGUE HAVE REPEATEDLY BEEN SHOWN FORGETTING FACTS ABOUT THE SITUATION, including but not limited to, Diana forgetting Paul showing deep animosity toward Nabu to the point she expresses honest concern that this is the first she ever heard of it, and the youth team apparently forgetting that Zatara was controlled by Nabu, period.

It's mind control. If it's not mind control I'll be baffled. I'm not crazy, right? This isn't an open secret and nobody posts about it or something?
 
I think it was stated that the League aren't truly aware about the exact effects of assimilation.
That seems like precisely what happened here with Nabu? The JL took it apparently on blind trust and Nabu's word that Zatara was being treated humanely, let out for walkies, etc...

Just like they apparently trust Grayven to responsibly devour peoples' essence using hyper-advanced xenotech without looking too hard at the repercussions and details of his actions.
 
Basically made an account solely to post this, but there's no way this isn't mind control at this point, right?

Every update everyone starts talking about how very odd this situation is, and how nobody seems to be doing anything about it, but nobody seems to jump to the obvious conclusion of it being mind control.

If Zoat thought this behavior was in line with reasonable human thought, that is, that it isn't particularly odd that a person in this situation would act this way, that'd be one thing. However, we have seen other characters perspectives on the Nabu situation, and literally everyone who isn't in direct contact with him agrees what he has done is reprehensible. Nobody except Kilderkin has thought Nabu's actions were in any way justifiable, and even Kilderkin acknowledged that the action was a bad one, just that it served a greater good, hence being open to negotiations at all. Yet, everybody in the League unanimously agrees that Nabu is totally fine? Nobody caused enough of a stink to, at the very least, not vote him in as a member? How on Earth could that happen?

So, as far as we can see, the decisions of the Justice League are in-universe bad. Either the Justice League is entirely bad people - which does not seem to be the direction the story has been framed at any point so far - OR the League was somehow compromised. Consider that we are dealing with a magic user, and mind control can definitely happen, the latter seems bleeding obvious. That is ignoring the fact that MEMBERS OF YOUNG JUSTICE AND THE LEAGUE HAVE REPEATEDLY BEEN SHOWN FORGETTING FACTS ABOUT THE SITUATION, including but not limited to, Diana forgetting Paul showing deep animosity toward Nabu to the point she expresses honest concern that this is the first she ever heard of it, and the youth team apparently forgetting that Zatara was controlled by Nabu, period.

It's mind control. If it's not mind control I'll be baffled. I'm not crazy, right? This isn't an open secret and nobody posts about it or something?
You're not crazy. I was arguing, "It doesn't have to be mind control AND it doesn't have to be author fiat" for a while but at this point, when Diana is basically making and forgetting the same arguments over again so quickly, completely losing the emotional turmoil she was experiencing?
It's mind control.

It didn't have to be mind control, until they got hit with arguments and forgot them immediately afterwards as soon as outside observers weren't present. Not unlike how mini-star-conquerors were able to 'program' a subject with certain directives, including, 'and come back and put me on your face'.

(If it is not mind-control, I will make and consume an edible hat.)
 
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That seems like precisely what happened here with Nabu? The JL took it apparently on blind trust and Nabu's word that Zatara was being treated humanely, let out for walkies, etc...

Just like they apparently trust Grayven to responsibly devour peoples' essence using hyper-advanced xenotech without looking too hard at the repercussions and details of his actions.

Again pretty sure Grayven never went into any detail into how assimalation works. If they knew what it did they would likely be horrified.
 
You're not crazy. I was arguing, "It doesn't have to be mind control AND it doesn't have to be author fiat" for a while but at this point, when Diana is basically making and forgetting the same arguments over again so quickly, completely losing the emotional turmoil she was experiencing?
It's mind control.

It didn't have to be mind control, until they got hit with arguments and forgot them immediately afterwards as soon as outside observers weren't present. Not unlike how mini-star-conquerors were able to 'program' a subject with certain directives, including, 'and come back and put me on your face'.

(If it is not mind-control, I will make and consume an edible hat.)
Oh god. The Star Conquerer mind control patches. They had the same programming effect, didn't they? Truggs was there. He'd know what the Conquerers are really capable of.

The Light had a backup plan in case they lost to the League on the Watchtower.
 
Honestly I feel like it may just be a case of the Stupids. A rather nasty case of it with some stubborn ideals and a flawed outlook for good measure. The whole mind control thing has some weight behind it but I feel like its just people being people and not making sense at times. It is DC however so I'm prepared for anything.
 
Yeah, this is kind of jarring in the extreme. WW is just demonstrating massive double-think and not realizing her own blatant contradictions.

I mean, she's a champion of truth. It's her thing. But she doesn't realize that, if she has to literally lie to the whole world about what she did, because the world would think that what she did was fucked up and morally repugnant, then maybe it was a morally indefensible decision?

The simple fact of the matter is that OL could automatically win the argument with the League about the morality of his actions by simply telling the world the truth about what happened, and OL would absolutely be in the right in the public's eyes. The League realizes this because they insist on keeping what happened secret. That the League is too stupid to realize it fucked up is...baffling.

Diana saying that she's here to find out whether or not the League can still trust OL is just inherently absurd. This whole situation happened specifically because OL felt betrayed by the League and believed that he could no longer trust it. They also refused to trust OL by not telling him about their reasoning for accepting Nabu on the League. It should have raised a bunch of red flags when Zatanna refused all offers of guardianship from League members--that none of them followed up on that is alarming in itself.

Diana is coming across here not as someone whom is trying to argue that she tried to make the best of a bad situation, but as someone who didn't make any major mistake at all by completely overlooking Nabu's actions.

When a subordinate does something as a result of not trusting his superior, a good superior would blame herself for not instilling trust in her subordinate. Such a good superior would not question whether or not her subordinate could still be trusted; she would accept (at a minimum) equal blame for the incident.

It's feeling less and less like the League simply fucked up in trying to make the best of a bad situation (and handling it really badly), and more like the League has a gaping morality blind spot where Nabu is concerned and is determined to demonize OL and not see the wrong of its actions.

...I just don't see how the League is worthy of respect anymore. Or Diana, for that matter. The level of irrationality she's displaying borders on insanity.
 
Again pretty sure Grayven never went into any detail into how assimalation works. If they knew what it did they would likely be horrified.
...and yeah, they should be, but given that at least some of the Justice League was, if not 'okay' with Nabu's body-snatching, then at least willing to tolerate it in the face of his value as an asset...

...again, they should be horrified, but that assumption rests on pretty shaky ground now that we're seeing this side of, ostensibly, the same people.

My point isn't that whether or not the JL knew about assimilation and the fine details, but that they didn't care to find out and took it on pure trust that Grayven wasn't doing anything reprehensible. That's the worrying part.
 
Guys, I think the League was indoctrinated.

Soon Paul will need to choose to blow up a blue, green, or red power battery while an illusion of klarion rambles at him:V
then zoat will apologise and release a slideshow of why the power batteries Aren't a total copout.

...

wait..

are we sure zoat woke up? Has he read any books recently?
 
Yeah, this is kind of jarring in the extreme. WW is just demonstrating massive double-think and not realizing her own blatant contradictions.

I mean, she's a champion of truth. It's her thing. But she doesn't realize that, if she has to literally lie to the whole world about what she did, because the world would think that what she did was fucked up and morally repugnant, then maybe it was a morally indefensible decision?

The simple fact of the matter is that OL could automatically win the argument with the League about the morality of his actions by simply telling the world the truth about what happened, and OL would absolutely be in the right in the public's eyes. The League realizes this because they insist on keeping what happened secret. That the League is too stupid to realize it fucked up is...baffling.

Diana saying that she's here to find out whether or not the League can still trust OL is just inherently absurd. This whole situation happened specifically because OL felt betrayed by the League and believed that he could no longer trust it. They also refused to trust OL by not telling him about their reasoning for accepting Nabu on the League. It should have raised a bunch of red flags when Zatanna refused all offers of guardianship from League members--that none of them followed up on that is alarming in itself.

Diana is coming across here not as someone whom is trying to argue that she tried to make the best of a bad situation, but as someone who didn't make any major mistake at all by completely overlooking Nabu's actions.

When a subordinate does something as a result of not trusting his superior, a good superior would blame herself for not instilling trust in her subordinate. Such a good superior would not question whether or not her subordinate could still be trusted; she would accept (at a minimum) equal blame for the incident.

It's feeling less and less like the League simply fucked up in trying to make the best of a bad situation (and handling it really badly), and more like the League has a gaping morality blind spot where Nabu is concerned and is determined to demonize OL and not see the wrong of its actions.

...I just don't see how the League is worthy of respect anymore. Or Diana, for that matter. The level of irrationality she's displaying borders on insanity.
I think it's time for OL to release the information he had about Nabu, and let the general population beat it into the League's collective skulls that what they did was not acceptable.

If anyone would like to write an omake of this (@BulletproofIdea), I'd be delighted to serve as a beta reader.
 
Okay, seriously, what the heck Wonder Woman? There's some fundamental disconnect here.
I think that's the problem everyone had with canon, and it's shown in full, glaring view here. Just what were they thinking? From the surface it appeared as if their thoughts went as far as 'Whelp, Zatarra's gone, that's our major magic user down, thank goodness Doctor Fate is here to pick up the slack; let's get him inducted quick so we can work on our cover story for Zatarra,' and no further. You think 'that can't be it', but you dig deeper and... yeah, that's pretty much it. They were aware of what Nabu did, how repugnant it was, and how it affected the people around him, but it seems as if they just wrote him off as dead immediately and compartmentalized the rest away. They justified it to themselves and welcomed Nabu as a friend an ally based solely on his record, which, admittedly, is suitably heroic aside from a few dark spots.

Now Paul killed him and a man they thought dead is back and they don't really know how to handle it. Diana tried talking to Paul, but it seemed to me more as if she were trying to adjust Paul within her own personal world-view, trying to make him 'fit' as it were. She all but asks him to prove to her that he isn't a villain, and he turns that around on her and asks her to prove she isn't one, all while pointing out that everything he did was perfectly legal, while what they did was most certainly not. Then he leaves her without her being able to justify it to him, and indeed, herself as well. Paul robbed Diana of her chance to reaffirm her faith in her decisions, and instead left her to ponder the rightness of her actions.

It's been said before, but I think it needs to be said again; this is a flaw of perspective as much as anything else. In the League's eyes what Zatarra did was sacrifice himself to save his daughter, something perfectly in line with their world-view. What Nabu did was rationed away as a Hard Man Making Hard Decisions, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one, there must always be a Doctor Fate, etc. It was easy to accept when they didn't have a body, easy to accept when Zatarra was still technically alive in there, just doing more good than he ever could on his own. At great personal cost, yes, but again, this isn't something strange for heroes. There was no one argument that convinced them what Nabu did was in any way okay, instead, they chose to view the circumstances in the best light possible and slowly rationalized their guilty conscience away until it no longer bothered them, until they had accepted that this was the new reality. And those who didn't see things that way were convinced at seeing so many of their friends and colleagues, people they respect and look up to just... go along with it; because surely they know what they're doing, right? And then Paul comes in and wrecks pretty much everything, now comes the time when they take a long, hard look at themselves.
 
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I vote ghost pepper.
I am glad I said 'influence' and thus have the arbitrary power to downgrade 'ghost pepper' to 'spicy flavors' rather than destroying my mouth. (But I would count that as an honest vote for 'spicy flavors'.)

But seriously, even if Zoat's notes didn't say mind-control before, at this point I can think of no other reasonable option.
It didn't have to be mind-control when it happened, because sometimes people make mistakes. It became mind-control when Diana forgot not even yesterday's words but the words of earlier-today-and-not-much-earlier.
 
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*Sigh*. Really hope we can be done with this particular arc soon. So far it's been one of the least enjoyable ones IMO. The fight scene wasn't bad, but it didn't really live up to the years of buildup that it went through. And the Justice Leauge reaction sections have just been the SI ranting at the League and Diana about how evil Nabu is, and it's lasted longer than the actual fight.

I feel that the main problem I have with these chapters is that there's no sense of progression. The first ones are the SI telling the League how he felt and how he planned to deal with Fate, which would be fine except for the fact that we already read it, in much greater detail earlier. The only new parts are the Justice League's reactions and counter arguments, and they're glossed over and ignored by the SI in favor of RIGHTEOUS ANGER!!! and nothing else. Just bashing the Leauge over and over saying "But Nabu's a criminal! He's scum! He took one of your friend's hostage!" These are valid points, but when you have multiple chapters of characters rehashing the same argument over and over it gets... annoying. One chapter of this is fine, but we've had at least three of them now. The only things that these chapters seem to be doing are showing us that the SI is burning bridges and setting up tension with the League for when he returns from his time in space, and that could have been accomplished in a single chapter, maybe two.

TLDR, I think that these chapters are getting repetitive and I know that Zoat can do better.
 
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