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... Shit. That fits with everything, and more closely. And it fits with Constantine's personal blessing/curse tendencies to those around him.
But if the Justice League blames him then I will still desire to punch them in the face.
I think it'd end up being something along the lines of "With the information you had, you made an understandable decision...but your information wasn't complete, and your decision was flawed as a result. You have killed...not quite an innocent man, but one who was not in control of his own actions. If you'd looked into things further rather than just doubling down, you wouldn't have had to kill him." Less blame, more disappointment.
 
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I think it'd end up being something along the lines of "With the information you had, you made an understandable decision...but your information wasn't complete, and your decision was flawed as a result. You have killed...not quite an innocent man, but one who was not in control of his own actions. If you'd looked into things further rather than just doubling down, you wouldn't have had to kill him." Less blame, more disappointment.
I... really feel like if the Justice League try to blame Paul for resisting a mind-controlled overlord when they let a couple dozen of Earth's most powerful people be mind-controlled sufficiently to cause and accept GLC-recognize crimes, it's the Justice League who deserves the punching.
I will sleep on this, and consider how to present my case with reasoned argument. As you can see, I have my opinion ready, so I need to examine it and, if it survives examination, communicate the reasons.
 
Kind of worried about Paul being a hypocrite and not treatin non humans as not being people just because he doesn't like them despite fighting for the right of non humans like robots.

His point was that Nabu was a lich, of an alien, and undead aren't people in England. And it was just Nabu.

OL is just a member of Young Justice.
He's a subordinate.
A sidekick.

He's not anything to them but a former comrade. He left all the teams and denied the opportunity to join the Justice League.

I also want to point out to everyone that OL did not go to the confrontation with the sole plan of killing the Lich. It was at the bottom of his list, which had a ton of stuff on it. It just happens Nabu suicided himself.
 
okay i wanna know, who else wants pauls last act before leaving the planet to be leaking all the info about nabu to the world. like not even doing a press conference but just anonymously releasing it on the internet or something.
I don't want him to do that. I want him to come back to an earth where he has relationships to return to, not everything burnt to hell out of a disagreement.

His point was that Nabu was a lich, of an alien, and undead aren't people in England. And it was just Nabu.
I thought he treated Nabu like a person even if UK law did not. He was in the process of arresting him for slavery and other crimes when Nabu resisted and then killed someone.
 
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Specifically, I really like golems and I'm disappointed that now we don't get Fear-golem or Order-golem.

Well Red Tornado could always be hanging out with Paul the Golem among the Leymen.

There's the Monolith out of Brooklyn.

Baby Brain created the Golem 4, who considering they seem to be a FF homage, presumably consisted of a clay golem, an air golem, a fire golem, and a water golem.

And Witchfire is a model actress singer superhero witch homunculus, if that's close enough.
 
I thought he treated Nabu like a person even if UK law did not. He was in the process of arresting him for slavery and other crimes when Nabu resisted and then killed someone.
Yes, but he did so by choice.
He's not guilty of murder under the law, because the law said he was just behaving in a particularly compassionate manner towards a non-person thing.
Now, justice might say otherwise! But in this case I am pretty sure that with the information he had Paul did pretty much the right thing.
 
My issue here is that the "JL confrontation" updates all seem to conform to the standards of shitty SI fanfic - it's Harriezer from Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality chastising Dumbledore and winning because Dumbledore isn't allowed to say anything intelligent, just stand there and produce arguments tailor-made for the SI to rip apart. The whole situation is so heavily weighted to make the SI look like the only person capable of sapient thought that it obliterates the very idea of Watsonian reasoning: I can't reason out its existence without ascribing it to the author instead of the characters.

Why is this happening? Young Justice was a mostly-awful show that completely failed to acknowledge the seriousness of the Nabu situation in its narrative. Then Zoat copypasted it into WTR, and now he's just spinning his wheels because he can't think of a reasonable explanation for how it could happen in a world where the JL aren't retarded. At this point, I think his plan is to just hustle Paul off of Earth-16 and try to forget the whole thing - after all, it'll be the 2020s before he ever comes back here, so the audience will move on.
Except, the SI isn't the only one capable of sapient thought here. Which is what I based most of my argument for mind control on.
If the SI was an iconoclast alone challenging the League on a decision and showing them their failings, as the only sane man, that'd be one thing. This is sort of a problem the fic has in other areas, namely tech development, where the SI really is a lone iconoclast, though he does in fact have quite a few people who all share his goals and ideals.

But every non-League member has agreed that Nabu is in the wrong. All of them. Nobody other then the League seem even motivated to try to justify his actions, with the exception of Kilderkin. If Zoat thought the League were making a normal human mistake that requires a particular brand of genius to counter, this would not happen. If it was just Paul and his buddy John, then maybe. Peanutbutter and Jelly along with Zatanna, well she would be biased to want her father back. But the old Captain Cornwall immediately responds, no this is evil, why would anyone think this is okay? Teth Adom agrees, Siskin agrees, everyone who isn't on the League immediately agrees. So, in universe, according to Zoat's own logic, the Nabu situation is obviously reprehensible. It does not take a particularly clever man to notice, and multiple people from various walks of life all agree. Considering that, how is it that the League all seem fine with Nabu? During the confrontation, you could see Captain Marvel begin to piece together that, oh wait, something really bad happened. He has the wisdom of Solomon, yet couldn't come up with basic thoughts like "Nabu didn't actually let Zatara speak"? It's not that this would be bad writing from Zoat, it's that its inconsistently bad writing. The SI is the beacon of light in the world who can do no wrong, and has to show everyone the way, except that basically everyone already understood that the situation was a mistake on the League's part. The ideas "My SI is the only one who can see the madness here" and "Everyone who sees the situation instantly understands that it's bad and needs to be stopped" don't fit together.

The only other option is that the League is, straight up, evil. Acting in self-interest above morality and only caring that a member of their own was killed - as they don't care about the death of Siskin, so they don't care about people being murdered by their associates in general - would be an evil action. I think someone else in the thread put it as Luthor's fears are all accurate, and they really do need to try and defeat the League ASAP so the world won't be ruled by nonhuman tyrants.

But the idea that the League just made an honest mistake is completely off the table. The entire League making the same mistake in the same way when our sample size of people outside the League is 180 degrees the other way suggests malice somewhere.

also no seriously characters are forgetting relevant information to the case in a manner that consistently makes nabu look better then he truly is, it's mind control, how can that not be mind control
 
. It wasn't "a society run by females", but "a society consisting of only females, with no possibility of children".
A women-led, then women-only,

That's...not really the case. Themyscira was stagnant because it had no conflict or competition, nor any new ideas or people. It wasn't "a society run by females", but "a society consisting of only females, with no possibility of children". Without children, there are no new ideas or perspectives, and no increasing population to drive innovation or expansion. Without neighbors or external threats, there is no need for improvement in order to keep up with competition or be ready to face invasion. With isolation, they received no new ideas, perspectives, products/goods, art, technology, or expertise from the rest of the world. With immortality, they had no enemies to face or obstacles to overcome. Hell, their society had been isolated and forced into stagnation before the very notion of technological progress for its own sake and innovation as a vital part of society (regardless of whether or not it's needed) became etched within its cultural fabric/memory (or with the rest of the world at the time).
Isolation was a deliberate choice, thus the lack of progress was a deliberate choice. There was nothing stopping them from contacting the outside world. They have deities of wisdom, craft, trade, etc, that they interact with. Philosophy was a thing in Greece, so was research and education.

They chose ignorance and isolation.
 
The argument that they went into isolation for protection from everyone who attacked them has merit until after the second world war, when they had contact with the outside world again, and it was obvious that the world had changed. From that point they were in isolation not for defence, but out of choice.
 
Nope. Recent WoZ put it at 2018.
Real world 2018. In universe October 2011ish.
So does he. Do you really think that one disagreement -even a fairly bad one- would actually completely destroy every relationship that he's built up over the past year?

Look, I can do a spoiler of the reasons behind the decisions of individual League members if people really want. That isn't information the SI has access to, and it will come up once he gets back to Earth and everyone has calmed down enough to talk about it rationally. But it won't be a story piece, it'll just be a big list and it probably won't make people happier.
 
Look, I can do a spoiler of the reasons behind the decisions of individual League members if people really want. That isn't information the SI has access to, and it will come up once he gets back to Earth and everyone has calmed down enough to talk about it rationally. But it won't be a story piece, it'll just be a big list and it probably won't make people happier.

I vote no. And I'll *try* to resist reading it if you post it.
 
Real world 2018. In universe October 2011ish.

So does he. Do you really think that one disagreement -even a fairly bad one- would actually completely destroy every relationship that he's built up over the past year?

Look, I can do a spoiler of the reasons behind the decisions of individual League members if people really want. That isn't information the SI has access to, and it will come up once he gets back to Earth and everyone has calmed down enough to talk about it rationally. But it won't be a story piece, it'll just be a big list and it probably won't make people happier.
Mmmm.
Not yet, I think?
Give it at least a few days for us to see more (talking with Adom and Alan and the team again and Zatara...) and for anyone who has an alt-theory to present it, have it discussed, etc.
Maybe then.
 
So that's where that Conflict Ball went!

*edit* And, isn't everyone in the league in nice, repeating patterns of behavior. Quite... ordered.
 
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I'm actually kind of curious as to what Diana's mother, the queen, would think of this decision... and how much of a dick move it would be for Paul to tell her about it.

Their sect are specifically big on vows of service, unity, and authoritarianism*. Same kind of rationality failures apply to the queen, unless she has a much different personal context I'm forgetting.

*Edit spelling, autocorrect is mad
 
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The thing is, if it's mind control, there's really not much time (in-story) before OL leaves Earth for the plot to be uncovered.

Yeah, this.

I having a sinking suspicion that by the time Paul returns to Earth in 2015-2016, things with the League and the Team will have reverted to a state as closely resembling canon Young Justice Season 2 as possible.

Mainly due to the narrative-driven nature of the DC Multiverse.

Like, Jade will somehow be a villain again and have a kid with Clone Roy.

Ted Kord decides to become the Blue Beetle shortly after OL leaves and die so Jaime Reyes can take up the mantle.

Another incident would occur with the Logans requiring M'gann to give blood to Garfield to save his life, thus he becomes Beast Boy.

M'gann and Kon's relationship will rapidly deteriorate as M'gann starts poking around in his head against his will. Tula dies, etc...
 
Yeah, this.

I having a sinking suspicion that by the time Paul returns to Earth in 2015-2016, things with the League and the Team will have reverted to a state as closely resembling canon Young Justice Season 2 as possible.

Mainly due to the narrative-driven nature of the DC Multiverse.

Like, Jade will somehow be a villain again and have a kid with Clone Roy.

Ted Kord decides to become the Blue Beetle shortly after OL leaves and die so Jaime Reyes can take up the mantle.

Another incident would occur with the Logans requiring M'gann to give blood to Garfield to save his life, thus he becomes Beast Boy.

M'gann and Kon's relationship will rapidly deteriorate as M'gann starts poking around in his head against his will. Tula dies, etc...
Narritivium? Oh gods, put magnets EVERYWHERE! Every square foot, put an earth magnet.

Didn't M'gann give blood to Garfield after the idiots got him shot?

Also, I'd love to see that spoiler, but as everyone else said, not until after the end of this chapter.
 
I having a sinking suspicion that by the time Paul returns to Earth in 2015-2016, things with the League and the Team will have reverted to a state as closely resembling canon Young Justice Season 2 as possible.
For those of you who chose not to look under the spoiler tag, I promise you that the SI will return to Earth before canon series 2 and that when he does things will not have reverted.
 
For those of you who chose not to look under the spoiler tag, I promise you that the SI will return to Earth before canon series 2 and that when he does things will not have reverted.

Ah. Well I made that post before looking at the spoiler.

I probably should have read the spoiler first.

Although the idea of things reverting and the SI having to figure how to undo that could be fun from a meta standpoint.
 
Isolation was a deliberate choice, thus the lack of progress was a deliberate choice. There was nothing stopping them from contacting the outside world. They have deities of wisdom, craft, trade, etc, that they interact with. Philosophy was a thing in Greece, so was research and education.

They chose ignorance and isolation.

Well from the Doylist perspective, Zoat chose ignorance for them.

Traditionally when they send Wonder Woman to teach poor primitive Man's World how to be better, "Man's world" is more primitive than them, either thanks to advanced science and/or magic.

Some of you folks remember the Babylonian Maltusians that have been mentioned before in this thread?

They tried to conquer Themyscira. The Babylonian Maltusians lost that war.

A far cry from Zoat's Amazons, who were rendered completely useless by the 15th century.
 
I'm actually kind of curious as to what Diana's mother, the queen, would think of this decision... and how much of a dick move it would be for Paul to tell her about it.

...also, the Justice League's unwillingness to call out Renegade on a lot of his orange light shenanigans look very different after all of this shit with Nabu's death. Did the Renegade-League not grok that Orange Light Assimilation = Functional Death? Were they 'okay' with Renegade just going around and 'enslaving' various people/things? They didn't seem too upset about Grayven absorbing Nabu... as long as he wasn't 'dead'?

There's some serious moral myopia going on with several members of the league, which is rather worrisome on many levels.
morallity is subjective.


also paul i expected better of you
 
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