I've never been a WW fan for various reasons. Or a fan of most comic book characters, because comics tropes. But is she, at least, going to have the courage to admit how wrong she's been in her methods and accusations and apologize eventually? If she can't be truthful with herself about this, very few others will be.
Just so. Though most of those inclined to even attempt this have fairly strong pro-Order views and would regard beings like Kilderkin as having a certain natural authority. On the other hand, it's not too narrow a church. Shazam is more Qui Gon Jin like in his focus on living order.
Although I can well see Giovanni trying to ascend and get John fired from the position.
Thing is that you've already approached other cases of bad writing by adjusting it to make sense for a living world rather than literally a cartoon- Klarion being a mass murderer comes to mind.
If he was explicitly stated in canon to not be a mass murderer I'd have had to have come up with some sort of save.
While you're within your rights to just port over the League's actions as per canon at face value, it definitely seems jarring when everyone else reacts in a much more...well, human fashion to what comes over as outright collective insanity by the "world's greatest heroes" and that's not really your fault beyond that decision to follow canon literally for that point.
As I said, the SI is acting with incomplete information.
See, if the Red Tornado approach was the one of the League as a whole and it came over as such? Them taking the long view and trying to get Nabu to see reason because of various factors- they know what Nabu's doing is wrong and want to try and get him to fix it, but view him as a fellow hero who needs to be talked down and reasoned with over a longer period of time? That'd come over as the League having a valid, if flawed, viewpoint instead of the readers going "these people are insane and I think they may have been brainwashed.
Okay, that later one sounds pretty amazing, and I'm looking forward to it. Especially the Renegade version of it, but Paragon's also got some tunnel vision on that.
I wrote the scene as I did because the SI was very angry and so decided to take an uncharacteristically confrontation viewpoint. And it didn't help him! He made a lot of people with whom he had a good relationship and whom may have been sympathetic to him on the whole Nabu topic hostile to him instead. Remember that thing Grayven said about Zatanna not feeling the psychological pressure to put an opposing viewpoint if Wallace did? This is the other side of that. He's made them feel attacked as a group, and that will make them less inclined to see things his way.
For those of you still having a mare about something that happened in Earth 16 canon, here's my draft of the reasons why they might have reached the point they did. Remember, this is my attempt to rationalise something I really don't get. For the purpose of this story it is an approximate guide only to what will eventually become canon.
Yeah, you're wrestling with canon, and that gets you in a weird spot. For me, the main issue was probably related to having seen some fics bog down in bash fic behavior or self-indulgency or just getting truly odd as a result, because as someone who's got similar tendencies (admittedly in TRPG DMing) to pick on canon, it can go wrong pretty easily? I was mostly just curious and impatient until last update, where Wonder Woman was flat out not making sense at point (see the "I'm part of the league and I have to go with their decisions that I could have shot down.") Although I understand why you are currently exasperated as heck.
Plastic Man - wasn't aware there was any issue concerning Zatara or Nabu. Fate was that guy from the Justice Society, right? Like Wonder Woman and Tornado? And he's pretty good at magic?
Atom - was under the impression that Zatara was a voluntary host and had effectively quite the League because Nabu could do that stuff better and they couldn't both work on it at once. Was not aware that Zatara no longer had any time as himself.
Accomplished Perfect Physician - considered Zatara's sacrifice one that was not merely good for Zatanna but for the world. Would probably have been happier if they had a timeshare arrangement, but didn't feel strongly about it.
Doctor Fate - considered his ability to act freely more important that Zatara's life or Zatanna's happiness.
Red Arrow - Found it creepy, but was of the belief that there wasn't anything he could do about it anyway. May have changed his view if Nabu had acted up in other ways.
Icon - was under the impression that Zatara's arrangement with Nabu was voluntary, as it had not occurred to him that what actually happened was a possibility. In both the sense that he didn't know that it could happen or that the existing League members would have tolerated it.
Guy Gardner - hadn't read the report on what the possession is like for the one being possessed. No one around him seemed to be particularly troubled by it, so assumed that it was a temporary arrangement at worst.
Red Tornado - was of the belief that Nabu would moderate his position, given time. If true, it meant that a difficult and extremely risky potential confrontation could be avoided.
Captain Marvel - was prepared to differ to the judgement of the senior heroes on the subject. Did ask Shazam about it, but was told that Nabu arrived on Earth after he stopped leaving the Rock and that they'd never really had anything to do with each other.
John Stewart - Busy. Took Batman's acceptance of his friend's 'utilisation' as proof that things were in hand.
Black Canary - assumed that Nabu's possession was irrevocable.
Major Atom - assumed that Fate was -at least to a degree- a merging of Nabu and Zatara, and was not aware of the sensory depravation aspect. Would most certainly have been unhappy about it if he had, though I don't know what he might have done to change things.
Zatara - after seeing all of the things that Nabu did with his time, was astonished that there was so much work to do. With Nabu still being almost constantly active he didn't think that pushing the subject of his liberation was a good idea.
Hawkwoman - initially found the situation uncomfortable, but didn't know any of the participants well. Nabu gave her nothing 'extra' to react against, so she didn't think about it further.
Hawkman - was monitoring the situation carefully. Tried obliquely to discuss the matter with Batman at least once.
Green Arrow - assumed that once Nabu put some roots down and got it into his head that he wasn't just going to be dumped again, he'd let Zatara out. After Artemis mentioned the SI and Zatanna leaving the mountain for the duration of Nabu's stay, he began to have second thoughts and eventually tentatively raised the issue with Nabu. Who promptly told him to butt out.
Martian Manhunter - could still hear Zatara's mind, and noted that he didn't sound unduly distressed most of the time.
Aquaman - didn't have an immediate solution and was busy running a country. Batman knew Zatara best, and if he thought keeping him around is a good idea then he deferred to his judgement.
Harold Jordan - didn't really think about it. He had other work and Nabu wasn't making further trouble. Would have reconsidered if something was thrust in his face.
Flash - assumed that Nabu would eventually negotiate a change in position, as he did when Wallace was possessed.
Wonder Woman - as a result of a Themysciran upbringing, tends to be disproportionately respectful of arcane life forms. This is in part because she knows what they can do when angry. Since Nabu wasn't being evil in any other way, she decided that direct confrontation was more likely to be counterproductive than do anything useful. Did intend to gradually work on him.
Batman - was working on counter-Nabu techniques in a somewhat more active way than he was working on anti-other League member techniques. Was not anywhere near a point where he would want to try any of them. The SI finds this out upon his return.
Superman - accepted Nabu's word that Zatara wanted him on the League. Again, without any extra evil conduct, he deprioritised dealing with it.
There's a lot of these I can get, especially with "Telepath says Zatara's relatively cool with this." (Which means that OL including M'gann would actually have been really useful, but no way to know that and the idea would not have occured to him, because who wants to be a slave? (Which was OL's context for it.) That said, epic failure to communicate given again, nobody kept the new guys or especially Zatanna in the loop. Which also seems consistent with YJ canon. Batman being the one working on counters makes sense... as well as his lack of progress given he's got no connection to magic except Zatara and Doctor Fate... which kinda leaves him at a loss here unless he brings in Zatanna, and I can see him not wanting to do that. Green Arrow was also being relatively good about it, but also knows crap about magic. So it works in WtR. What the heck they were doing in canon trying to wait it out after five years is anyone's guess.
I think the main problem for me in canon and in WTR is that I expect normal people to react the way the league does, if that person was not personally invested and a bystander.
But this is the Justice League, Superman is a world famous icon both inside and outside of his own Universe and too see him along with WW react that way to the situation and then choosing to lie to the world like that...it's just wrong on a deeper level then usual in a fictional work. Batman's not much better either, he's the guy who has basically made it a career of picking up orphans and help them through hard times while helping their community. The fact that he as Zataras friend doesn't reach out to Zatana in his own way is horrible.
The fact that a whole nation once mourned the death of Superman should be telling of the impact fictional characters can have on generations...
At this point I'm just rambling but I guess I'm just trying to express the baffling disappointment I have for a fictional character not living up to the Ideal for no reason.
The reason that I didn't want to post this is that the SI is acting with incomplete information. Having that information visible to the reader puts you in the position of being able to make out of context judgements about whether he was right or not, and from there say 'he should have done this, the author just said that would work better', and from there conclude that he or I just hate Nabu and that's why everything happened.
This is completely the wrong way to approach it.
The reason why the SI talked down to the Justice League isn't because I the author wanted to call Mister Weisman to account for his dubious canon characterisation. If I wanted to do that I could just e-mail him for a non-answer or put it in one of the thousands of non-story posts I've posted in this thread alone.
I wrote the scene as I did because the SI was very angry and so decided to take an uncharacteristically confrontation viewpoint. And it didn't help him! He made a lot of people with whom he had a good relationship and whom may have been sympathetic to him on the whole Nabu topic hostile to him instead. Remember that thing Grayven said about Zatanna not feeling the psychological pressure to put an opposing viewpoint if Wallace did? This is the other side of that. He's made them feel attacked as a group, and that will make them less inclined to see things his way.
I don't know why Mister Weisman had the League behave the way they did in canon. The time skip took me by surprise, and when it wasn't mentioned again I put it to the back of my mind. But there is no way that the SI as written from the beginning wouldn't behave as he did here.
With regard to the 'Nabu and Zatara came to terms during the time skip' theory, I regard that as being the equivalent of the Mass Effect indoctrination theory; a product of fan disbelief that the writers could have [written something that bad/written the Justice League so out of character]. As I have said before, there is evidence that Zatara was still wearing the Helmet in series 2 and at best a mild hint that he wasn't, Mister Weisman's mealy mouthed attempts at obfuscation notwithstanding. Similarly, I regard mind control as a cheap cop out. Characters should be allowed to own their mistakes.
For those of you still having a mare about something that happened in Earth 16 canon, here's my draft of the reasons why they might have reached the point they did. Remember, this is my attempt to rationalise something I really don't get. For the purpose of this story it is an approximate guide only to what will eventually become canon.
Plastic Man - wasn't aware there was any issue concerning Zatara or Nabu. Fate was that guy from the Justice Society, right? Like Wonder Woman and Tornado? And he's pretty good at magic?
Atom - was under the impression that Zatara was a voluntary host and had effectively quite the League because Nabu could do that stuff better and they couldn't both work on it at once. Was not aware that Zatara no longer had any time as himself.
Accomplished Perfect Physician - considered Zatara's sacrifice one that was not merely good for Zatanna but for the world. Would probably have been happier if they had a timeshare arrangement, but didn't feel strongly about it.
Doctor Fate - considered his ability to act freely more important that Zatara's life or Zatanna's happiness.
Red Arrow - Found it creepy, but was of the belief that there wasn't anything he could do about it anyway. May have changed his view if Nabu had acted up in other ways.
Icon - was under the impression that Zatara's arrangement with Nabu was voluntary, as it had not occurred to him that what actually happened was a possibility. In both the sense that he didn't know that it could happen or that the existing League members would have tolerated it.
Guy Gardner - hadn't read the report on what the possession is like for the one being possessed. No one around him seemed to be particularly troubled by it, so assumed that it was a temporary arrangement at worst.
Red Tornado - was of the belief that Nabu would moderate his position, given time. If true, it meant that a difficult and extremely risky potential confrontation could be avoided.
Captain Marvel - was prepared to differ to the judgement of the senior heroes on the subject. Did ask Shazam about it, but was told that Nabu arrived on Earth after he stopped leaving the Rock and that they'd never really had anything to do with each other.
John Stewart - Busy. Took Batman's acceptance of his friend's 'utilisation' as proof that things were in hand.
Black Canary - assumed that Nabu's possession was irrevocable.
Major Atom - assumed that Fate was -at least to a degree- a merging of Nabu and Zatara, and was not aware of the sensory depravation aspect. Would most certainly have been unhappy about it if he had, though I don't know what he might have done to change things.
Zatara - after seeing all of the things that Nabu did with his time, was astonished that there was so much work to do. With Nabu still being almost constantly active he didn't think that pushing the subject of his liberation was a good idea.
Hawkwoman - initially found the situation uncomfortable, but didn't know any of the participants well. Nabu gave her nothing 'extra' to react against, so she didn't think about it further.
Hawkman - was monitoring the situation carefully. Tried obliquely to discuss the matter with Batman at least once.
Green Arrow - assumed that once Nabu put some roots down and got it into his head that he wasn't just going to be dumped again, he'd let Zatara out. After Artemis mentioned the SI and Zatanna leaving the mountain for the duration of Nabu's stay, he began to have second thoughts and eventually tentatively raised the issue with Nabu. Who promptly told him to butt out.
Martian Manhunter - could still hear Zatara's mind, and noted that he didn't sound unduly distressed most of the time.
Aquaman - didn't have an immediate solution and was busy running a country. Batman knew Zatara best, and if he thought keeping him around is a good idea then he deferred to his judgement.
Harold Jordan - didn't really think about it. He had other work and Nabu wasn't making further trouble. Would have reconsidered if something was thrust in his face.
Flash - assumed that Nabu would eventually negotiate a change in position, as he did when Wallace was possessed.
Wonder Woman - as a result of a Themysciran upbringing, tends to be disproportionately respectful of arcane life forms. This is in part because she knows what they can do when angry. Since Nabu wasn't being evil in any other way, she decided that direct confrontation was more likely to be counterproductive than do anything useful. Did intend to gradually work on him.
Batman - was working on counter-Nabu techniques in a somewhat more active way than he was working on anti-other League member techniques. Was not anywhere near a point where he would want to try any of them. The SI finds this out upon his return.
Superman - accepted Nabu's word that Zatara wanted him on the League. Again, without any extra evil conduct, he deprioritised dealing with it.
The problem is kinda that nothing in the spoiler's what we SAW as the highlight of this conversation, and still seems to be...kinda uncharitable to the characters involved even if it does make them out to be flawed people rather than a gang of mind-controlled patsies/lunatics. I do get that the source material didn't give you much to work with, but this is definitely a case where I think taking more liberties would have helped, as it did with the Klarion as mass murderer subpoint.
Even in-character, the fact that the League's behavior's been basically a 1:1 port from cartoon logic has been called out as downright bizarre- and when you've otherwise tried to give people human reactions or at least deeper logic, it still stands out. The explanation you gave is better than just at face value, sure, but it still reads as, unfortunately, an idiot ball they dragged with them from the source material into a story where idiot balls tend to be left at the door.
I think the main problem for me in canon and in WTR is that I expect normal people to react the way the league does, if that person was not personally invested and a bystander.
But this is the Justice League, Superman is a world famous icon both inside and outside of his own Universe and too see him along with WW react that way to the situation and then choosing to lie to the world like that...it's just wrong on a deeper level then usual in a fictional work. Batman's not much better either, he's the guy who has basically made it a career of picking up orphans and help them through hard times while helping their community. The fact that he as Zataras friend doesn't reach out to Zatara in his own way is horrible.
The fact that a whole nation once mourned the death of Superman should be telling of the impact fictional characters can have on generations...
At this point I'm just rambling but I guess I'm just trying to express the baffling disappointment I have for a fictional character not living up to the Ideal for no reason.
It's similar to the Superman/Superboy issue. In real life, most people would be understanding of someone being uncomfortable with a child that suddenly appears and wants a relationship. But when it's Superman, you expect him to be better than that.
At this point I'm just rambling but I guess I'm just trying to express the baffling disappointment I have for a fictional character not living up to the Ideal for no reason.
Longtime lurker making account for this. Will definetely say I enjoyed the arc still, and have greatly enjoyed the story as a whole, btw. But well, comments on the spoiler below:
Re the character motivations: I think one of the biggest things causing people to wonder mind control isn't that the league members have differing opinions/different information. It's that they all seem incapable of understanding why someone might react the way they did to things. "I disagree with your conclusions but I see why someone might have seen it that way" should be the way at least several of them, particularly Diana, would be expected to react to this. Even if she's submissive to arcane lifeforms, she knows people have been rebellious to the gods before.
If we look at this from the leagues available information, a 14 year old girl wanted her father back, and someone they believe is around the same age but has a massive amount of power and allies agreed with her, and they killed another being to get said father back, from someone who compelled Zatara's agreement under coercion. There could be a ton of arguments they could make here, about the greater good, or about how Zatara consented willingly and the coercion doesn't change that, etc. But all of these arguments could be made from the perspective of someone who understands the other side of seeing this. Even if they take this as a "children acting emotionally" thing, that's a step up from "I don't understand how you could ever do this."
The fact that Zatanna is a child and most of them believe Paul to be should make this even easier for them to grok. Hell, several YJ members have assumed Paul + Zatanna were a couple, it's not unreasonable for the league members to think similarly, which would make the leap for Paul backing Zatanna even easier.
I know philosophically speaking I hate idealists, and the league are definetely wide eyed idealists, but the level of disconnect here is somewhat staggering.
I could write a description of a fictional American football game, believing the game being played to be a stupid faux-rugby knock off. Some people would still prefer it.
That explanation takes the problem so far out of context that I don't know how it is supposed to explain anything. This is not about an author disliking a particular internally consistent aspect of the fictional world he writes in. The issue is, as I see it, that the original world has a huge inconsistency in it that it could gloss over without explanation because it was a) only peripheral to the plot, b) happened largely off-screen, and c) was mostly skipped over through a huge time skip.
What you have done, from my perspective, is acknowledge this inconsistency (i.e. a way in which the world just does not make sense) and then made it extremely central to the story, to the point that is changes a re-defines the relationship of the main character with a large part of the cast.
This might have worked if your story was a humoursly self-aware comedy with rule of cool and filled with comic logic. But you have otherwise kept the whole world so splendidly consistent and serious that this one weird thing stands out like a sore thumb. And again, it really does not help that you turned it into such a central plot point.
I hope this clarifies my position.
Edit:
Having just read the spoiler on your notes: Even if I thought everything there made perfect sense, there'd still be a lot of weird unexplained stuff left over. The effective abandonment of Zatanna by everyone, for example, or the paper-thin lies about what happened to Zatarra. Or the fact that none of the discussions that have to have happened for Fate to become a JL member to include what happened to Zatara. Or the weird aggressive behaviour by Wonder Woman in the last update, which seemed far more confrontial and one-sided that I would have expected from her.
It's similar to the Superman/Superboy issue. In real life, most people who be understanding of someone being uncomfortable with a child that suddenly appears and wants a relationship. But when it's Superman, you expect him to be better than that.
It's not only that these guys are technically celebrities in their own right, which brings with it unrealistic expectations but they are also fictional which IMO gives me the right to expect them to live up to their own legends. IRL we all learn to know better, but when it's the freaking escapism you use that betrays you I don't even know anymore...
edit:I don't even know how any of that was connected to what I just quoted...I need a time out
I feel like there was a missed opportunity with Paul being angry and saying things he normally wouldn't have said. It would have been a good chance for a much more interesting truth to come out.
LEAGUER (maybe Wonder Woman): You're a child and-
PAUL: I'm thirty-three years old!
Him hiding the truth about his age annoyed me so much that I dropped this fic literally for years. It would be nice to see a resolution on that.
Exactly why the joining of Order-Lord Terataya and the Lord of Chaos, T'Charr wasn't well accepted by either faction.
It's one thing to cooperate, but it's QUITE another thing ENTIRELY if the two get together fully!
After all, if Order and Chaos can exist as ONE, then what's the point of either conflicting side existing in the first place?
It's quite likely that John Constantine's double ascension is the straw that has broken the camel's back.
Metaphysically, the Universe is Alive. Small changes ripple outward, making bigger changes, and the Universe, much like an organism, will respond to those changes, and adapt.
As The Unity, T'Charr and Terataya proclaimed that their Love and joining was long fearedby both houses.
So it makes sense that if a singular being becomes of both Order and Chaos, made One, whatever it is both powers afraid of may come to pass as The Universe might come to a decision:
I recall reading that Batman and Paul would end up on perhaps slightly bad terms (which is fine by me. I'd personally love to see Paul shove Batman up his own ass) and I wonder what will cause it. I wonder if it would end up being because Paul informs everyone that, to him originally, they are all just comic book characters. That everything they've ever done, ever suffered, was just just entertainment to us/Paul.
Mmm...nah. Highly doubt Zoat will go there.
Still would love to see Paul smash him though.....Man I hate batman. If only I could draw...
My response to her:
You are ALSO a League-member, Diana.
If the League's vote is "unanimous", that means you've ALREADY voted.
Semantics aside, if everyone else has already voted "YES", are you unable to justify voting "NO"?
Does the majority's opinion sway you so powerfully?
Why were you unwilling to argue for the rights of your OTHER team-mate, Giovanni Zatara?
The reason that I didn't want to post this is that the SI is acting with incomplete information. Having that information visible to the reader puts you in the position of being able to make out of context judgements about whether he was right or not, and from there say 'he should have done this, the author just said that would work better', and from there conclude that he or I just hate Nabu and that's why everything happened.
This is completely the wrong way to approach it.
The reason why the SI talked down to the Justice League isn't because I the author wanted to call Mister Weisman to account for his dubious canon characterisation. If I wanted to do that I could just e-mail him for a non-answer or put it in one of the thousands of non-story posts I've posted in this thread alone.
I wrote the scene as I did because the SI was very angry and so decided to take an uncharacteristically confrontation viewpoint. And it didn't help him! He made a lot of people with whom he had a good relationship and whom may have been sympathetic to him on the whole Nabu topic hostile to him instead. Remember that thing Grayven said about Zatanna not feeling the psychological pressure to put an opposing viewpoint if Wallace did? This is the other side of that. He's made them feel attacked as a group, and that will make them less inclined to see things his way.
I don't know why Mister Weisman had the League behave the way they did in canon. The time skip took me by surprise, and when it wasn't mentioned again I put it to the back of my mind. But there is no way that the SI as written from the beginning wouldn't behave as he did here.
With regard to the 'Nabu and Zatara came to terms during the time skip' theory, I regard that as being the equivalent of the Mass Effect indoctrination theory; a product of fan disbelief that the writers could have [written something that bad/written the Justice League so out of character]. As I have said before, there is evidence that Zatara was still wearing the Helmet in series 2 and at best a mild hint that he wasn't, Mister Weisman's mealy mouthed attempts at obfuscation notwithstanding. Similarly, I regard mind control as a cheap cop out. Characters should be allowed to own their mistakes.
For those of you still having a mare about something that happened in Earth 16 canon, here's my draft of the reasons why they might have reached the point they did. Remember, this is my attempt to rationalise something I really don't get. For the purpose of this story it is an approximate guide only to what will eventually become canon.
Plastic Man - wasn't aware there was any issue concerning Zatara or Nabu. Fate was that guy from the Justice Society, right? Like Wonder Woman and Tornado? And he's pretty good at magic?
Atom - was under the impression that Zatara was a voluntary host and had effectively quite the League because Nabu could do that stuff better and they couldn't both work on it at once. Was not aware that Zatara no longer had any time as himself.
Accomplished Perfect Physician - considered Zatara's sacrifice one that was not merely good for Zatanna but for the world. Would probably have been happier if they had a timeshare arrangement, but didn't feel strongly about it.
Doctor Fate - considered his ability to act freely more important that Zatara's life or Zatanna's happiness.
Red Arrow - Found it creepy, but was of the belief that there wasn't anything he could do about it anyway. May have changed his view if Nabu had acted up in other ways.
Icon - was under the impression that Zatara's arrangement with Nabu was voluntary, as it had not occurred to him that what actually happened was a possibility. In both the sense that he didn't know that it could happen or that the existing League members would have tolerated it.
Guy Gardner - hadn't read the report on what the possession is like for the one being possessed. No one around him seemed to be particularly troubled by it, so assumed that it was a temporary arrangement at worst.
Red Tornado - was of the belief that Nabu would moderate his position, given time. If true, it meant that a difficult and extremely risky potential confrontation could be avoided.
Captain Marvel - was prepared to differ to the judgement of the senior heroes on the subject. Did ask Shazam about it, but was told that Nabu arrived on Earth after he stopped leaving the Rock and that they'd never really had anything to do with each other.
John Stewart - Busy. Took Batman's acceptance of his friend's 'utilisation' as proof that things were in hand.
Black Canary - assumed that Nabu's possession was irrevocable.
Major Atom - assumed that Fate was -at least to a degree- a merging of Nabu and Zatara, and was not aware of the sensory depravation aspect. Would most certainly have been unhappy about it if he had, though I don't know what he might have done to change things.
Zatara - after seeing all of the things that Nabu did with his time, was astonished that there was so much work to do. With Nabu still being almost constantly active he didn't think that pushing the subject of his liberation was a good idea.
Hawkwoman - initially found the situation uncomfortable, but didn't know any of the participants well. Nabu gave her nothing 'extra' to react against, so she didn't think about it further.
Hawkman - was monitoring the situation carefully. Tried obliquely to discuss the matter with Batman at least once.
Green Arrow - assumed that once Nabu put some roots down and got it into his head that he wasn't just going to be dumped again, he'd let Zatara out. After Artemis mentioned the SI and Zatanna leaving the mountain for the duration of Nabu's stay, he began to have second thoughts and eventually tentatively raised the issue with Nabu. Who promptly told him to butt out.
Martian Manhunter - could still hear Zatara's mind, and noted that he didn't sound unduly distressed most of the time.
Aquaman - didn't have an immediate solution and was busy running a country. Batman knew Zatara best, and if he thought keeping him around is a good idea then he deferred to his judgement.
Harold Jordan - didn't really think about it. He had other work and Nabu wasn't making further trouble. Would have reconsidered if something was thrust in his face.
Flash - assumed that Nabu would eventually negotiate a change in position, as he did when Wallace was possessed.
Wonder Woman - as a result of a Themysciran upbringing, tends to be disproportionately respectful of arcane life forms. This is in part because she knows what they can do when angry. Since Nabu wasn't being evil in any other way, she decided that direct confrontation was more likely to be counterproductive than do anything useful. Did intend to gradually work on him.
Batman - was working on counter-Nabu techniques in a somewhat more active way than he was working on anti-other League member techniques. Was not anywhere near a point where he would want to try any of them. The SI finds this out upon his return.
Superman - accepted Nabu's word that Zatara wanted him on the League. Again, without any extra evil conduct, he deprioritised dealing with it.
Thank you for the spoiler and explanation.
Yes, it does help with understanding individual motivations.
Yes, I will keep in mind that these are only the notes to what may someday become the canon.
I am not confused... by Paul vs. The League in the past few updates. He was confrontational and shouty, the confrontational members of the League shouted back.
I mostly just... don't get (didn't get?) Diana's position in just the most recent update.
But even that...
...perhaps the person who sees a Lord of Order and thinks, 'god who can take a Chosen One/priest/generally 'owns' society' was a bad choice to talk to Paul, yes.
I wonder if Eris, she of independence from even the gods, might be more important here than I thought? Well, we'll see.
True enough, though there's an argument to be made that Jade at least is: rational (and with normal human mentality), in possession of healthy personal bonds (including her family) who can exercise influence on her, and (most significantly) not powerful enough to be really dangerous by herself.
Nabu, on the other hand, was an arcane entity of uncertain mentality, immense power and no apparent outside connections who could (or would) exercise significant influence on his actions. Jade and Talia you can reason with or imprison with little issue; if someone like Nabu does not want to listen (not helped by their lack of understanding of his psychology), you either have to shelve the matter (temporarily or not) or resort to force.
Also; while the procedures for joining the League have been brought up in-story a few times, I don't think we've covered expulsion. Did anyone ever bring that up when Nabu had been on the League for a while and showed no signs of even considering releasing Mr Zatara?
You are ALSO a League-member, Diana.
If the League's vote is "unanimous", that means you've ALREADY voted.
Semantics aside, if everyone else has already voted "YES", are you unable to justify voting "NO"?
Does the majority's opinion sway you so powerfully?
Why were you unwilling to argue for the rights of your OTHER team-mate, Giovanni Zatara?
I gotta be honest, I'm not sure I can accept anything else then mind control for this. After having Paul stand and explain his reasoning with the Leagues over all reaction being I don't care/I don't understand how anything you just said explain anything you did because what you did is so extremely Illogical you don't even have a an argument.
This is worse then canon because in canon it's simply glossed over. Here they are confronted and don't even understand why. It's so out of character that no matter their reasoning however justified it may be it can never ever excuse the way they handled this, not only among teammates and sidekicks but to the entire world.
I gotta be honest, I'm not sure I can accept anything else then mind control for this. After having Paul stand and explain his reasoning with the Leagues over all reaction being I don't care/I don't understand how anything you just said explain anything you did because what you did is so extremely Illogical you don't even have a an argument.
This is worse then canon because in canon it's simply glossed over. Here they are confronted and don't even understand why. It's so out of character that no matter their reasoning however justified it may be it can never ever excuse the way they handled this, not only among teammates and sidekicks but to the entire world.
then GTFO.
I think the whole thing can be explained away with two heroes: Zatara and Martian Manhunter.
Everyone asks Martian manhunter who asks Zatara who says "no need to hurry to free me, Fate's doing good shit I can't and I'm learning". Done. conflict resolved and SI is left feeling like an idiot. Sure he can complain no one told Zatanna, but there they can point to someone else and say
"I thought she/he/Fate/Martian Manhunter already did tell her!"
I also think the Diana acted weird in that scene between her and SI...
Now to read the Spoilered parts...
EDIT:
oh well... Damnit Martian Manhunter! learn to TELL EVERYONE ELSE!! damnit... but I seemed to be spot on!
And it's the fact that they who do does at all which bothers me. Well maybe not supes but WW she can't even see her own hypocrisy the fact that she comes to paul wanting to talk and then accuses him of breaking her trust. She's better then that, she's wiser and should be collected enough to not blurt something like that out.
