- Location
- Hampden Park
I doubt that he's going to tell them.
The absolute last thing either of them need is to get involved in costumed nonsense.
You're free to write that if you want.
With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Twelve)
- Thread starter Mr Zoat
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Tulsa, Oklahoma
Gaining superpowers doesn't mean they have to fight crime or wear costumes. The utility of super speed would be amazing and I think the SI would like it if they were Dannered just for the added resilience.
No randomly dying to a car accident (or getting hit by a bus coughGuycough).
No getting messed with by people that know Holly from her old life.
They live in Gotham. A better than pre-Bateman Gotham but still Gotham.
I'd expect them to say no but the fact it wasn't offered is what was bothering me.
A few possible reasons:
Holly, at least, is a former criminal. As with Jade and Kadabra, Paul isn't offering things until it's clear they won't result in backsliding... and even then, focusing heavily on things that will keep moving them away from crime first.
He went against that, with Jade, for the Nabu fight somewhat in order to get the use of her expertise - and even then only well after her time in jail and 'whitemailing' her.
He also, ever since Paulphidoan forced the Formula on Robin and Artemis, has backed off of offering it in general - he's still offering it to Rocket and such, but he doesn't bring it up as often. And that's for someone engaged in active super-fights!
dhasenan
always lowercase
- Pronouns
- She/Her
And the extra lifespan doesn't hurt. Afterlives are a thing for theists, but I'm not sure what afterlife someone would go to in this series if they didn't worship anyone. Or what this version of heaven is like. Even if it's a reasonably good afterlife, it is not nice for a person to be exiled and separated from everyone they know just because they got too old or wandered onto some train tracks.
Roadie
A plate full of blins and a cat nearby.
I don't really see where all the trouble would come from. The legal process here would presumably be the same as a missing persons case where the missing person reappears after some years: Affidavits witnessed by friends, family, and acquaintances who can attest to the person's identity are filed with a judge asserting that this is the same person; the judge considers the paperwork at hand and the reputation and reliability of the people filing the paperwork; and if the judge finds it reasonable he declares it to be true and writes up a court order to get the appropriate identity paperwork issued.
The whole "he used to be flesh and blood, but now he's made of magic" thing would be a wrinkle for police and health services to handle, but it's not really relevant to the court process beyond meaning that an expert witness on souls and magic writes an affidavit instead of an expert witness on dental records. And remember, London is working with the Atlanteans now, so it's pretty easy for the mayor's office to write up a reference that a judge will find reasonably trustworthy, even if the judge doesn't really understand the particulars of the whole soul thing.
- Location
- Somewhere out there
I wouldn't be surprised if something like this happens in-story -- I mean, you're basically describing a debriefing.
questions
I love how you made sure this was something you could actually do, and would actually be rather tasty, if John did stay as a Lord of Chaos and Order (Ordos?)
The opposite of Chaos (χάος) is Cosmos (κόσμος). Therefore, Chaosmos!
Or, well, Lord of Patterns works too.
Chaos Blade
Procrastinating Writer
- Location
- Buenos Aires, Argentina
But Cosmos means order, at least in the sense you are using, "The" order of things,.
Anyway, I've never been fond of people on either side of the Chaos/Order split, they both led to ugly ends. Balance is key because the ultimate Order is absolute stasis and that? is death.
- Location
- Hampden Park
Thank you, corrected.
I was (humorously) helping Fireball900 making up a portmanteau of Chaos+Order by coming back to the original Greek.
Fighting big philosophies trying to make the world go their way for the people who have to live in that world has always been John's stance, anyway.
The Patterns thing is about this quote.
- Location
- Earth
"Unintentionally left your daughter, a hormonal and deeply upset teenager, alone for several days with a potent magical artifact of Love. Not my best move, sir, but I'm sure everything will turn out fine."
- Location
- UK
Okay, I've been following this debate all day on my phone, and it has been simply the most annoying thing not being able to give my thoughts on the matter.
Speaking to Nabu's level of responsibility for the events of the battle;
Legally, it depends how good his lawyer is. He's guilty of resisting arrest, sure, but, arguably, everything after he got magically terrorised by Siskin is not his fault - after all, his arresting officers deliberately induced a complete mental breakdown, right? He could hardly be held responsible for his actions after that.
Even if the temporary insanity plea doesn't hold, the first things that happen after that are; Paul states "Kill the fucker", and Nabu is shot in the head by a weapon specifically designed to, if not kill him, cause him significant harm. At this point, we have to admit that surrender is no longer a reasonable option.
So, legally, the case is, at best, unclear.
All the questions of legal status (Nabu's personhood, Siskin's personhood, Paul's right to arrest Nabu) can be answered by invoking the UN - the League is required to uphold the laws of UN member states whilst they are present in those countries, Nabu was a member of the League, and Paul was a member of the Metropolitan Police during the operation. Yes, these are all the most fig-leaf of excuses, but the League doesn't wish to declare independence from the UN, and so these fig leafs must be observed.
Morally, the situation is also significantly grey. Well, more grey than has been acknowledged.
Attempting to free Zatanna is unambiguously a good thing to do, enslaving him the opposite. However, the situation was flawed. Paul, someone who Nabu has repeatedly and clearly expressed his dislike and reasons to distrust, has admitted to working for a significant period of time against him whilst claiming to be an ally, and is demanding that he place himself entirely at his mercy immediately, on pain of violence.
Because, no matter what the scenario, given that he was unable to leave the area and was not allowed to delay the decision, there would always be at least a few moments where he was completely vulnerable. And trusting your enemies not to take advantage of that is not how you survive several millennia of magical conflict.
Honestly, I kind've blame Paul for this. Yes, discussing the morality of the situation with some of the Leaguers risked letting Nabu know of his disapproval. But by insisting on doing it all himself, and being the one to put forth the proposals to Nabu, he destroyed pretty much any chance of actually having a reasonable discussion. There's a reason independent mediators are a thing.
Speaking to Nabu's level of responsibility for the events of the battle;
Legally, it depends how good his lawyer is. He's guilty of resisting arrest, sure, but, arguably, everything after he got magically terrorised by Siskin is not his fault - after all, his arresting officers deliberately induced a complete mental breakdown, right? He could hardly be held responsible for his actions after that.
Even if the temporary insanity plea doesn't hold, the first things that happen after that are; Paul states "Kill the fucker", and Nabu is shot in the head by a weapon specifically designed to, if not kill him, cause him significant harm. At this point, we have to admit that surrender is no longer a reasonable option.
So, legally, the case is, at best, unclear.
All the questions of legal status (Nabu's personhood, Siskin's personhood, Paul's right to arrest Nabu) can be answered by invoking the UN - the League is required to uphold the laws of UN member states whilst they are present in those countries, Nabu was a member of the League, and Paul was a member of the Metropolitan Police during the operation. Yes, these are all the most fig-leaf of excuses, but the League doesn't wish to declare independence from the UN, and so these fig leafs must be observed.
Morally, the situation is also significantly grey. Well, more grey than has been acknowledged.
Attempting to free Zatanna is unambiguously a good thing to do, enslaving him the opposite. However, the situation was flawed. Paul, someone who Nabu has repeatedly and clearly expressed his dislike and reasons to distrust, has admitted to working for a significant period of time against him whilst claiming to be an ally, and is demanding that he place himself entirely at his mercy immediately, on pain of violence.
Because, no matter what the scenario, given that he was unable to leave the area and was not allowed to delay the decision, there would always be at least a few moments where he was completely vulnerable. And trusting your enemies not to take advantage of that is not how you survive several millennia of magical conflict.
Honestly, I kind've blame Paul for this. Yes, discussing the morality of the situation with some of the Leaguers risked letting Nabu know of his disapproval. But by insisting on doing it all himself, and being the one to put forth the proposals to Nabu, he destroyed pretty much any chance of actually having a reasonable discussion. There's a reason independent mediators are a thing.
The thing about discussing it with the League is... They publicly announced their support for Nabu, then privately froze Zatanna out. They cannot be neutral mediators, because on every level they declared themselves on Nabu's side.
EDIT: Bringing it to the U.N. could work - that goes above the League to a more neutral party - but the problem is A) That means publicizing what the League did, which Paul thinks is a Bad Idea and B) It means capturing Nabu, because... he has proven too able to just flee, and doesn't seem to have respect for ethics or law, only his own conception of Order. Which puts everything back at, "Can't tell them unless you trust Nabu, who keeps betraying hosts and shows no inclination to do anything else when he believes he has the power to be untouchable."
Since it involves capturing Nabu... things are back at square one.
The alternative is to just accept it, put all the eggs in a single basket, and warn Nabu in advance, but again - Nabu hasn't made any moves towards ceasing his enslaving ways, and if he is informed without being captured then he can just leave and probably will. Trying to negotiate with another Lord of Order to feel things out resulted in political-speak for, "I will mention that if he wants to he can stop enslaving Giovanni, but even if you kill a Lord of Chaos for us I will not actually exert any influence to have him stop enslaving Giovanni."
Further EDIT:
It might still have been best to start by swearing Diana to secrecy with something appropriately secure and trying to convince her, but to keep that from Doctor Fate would still be difficult, because Diana will be with Fate a lot of the time. It requires assuming that Doctor Fate can't get the information from her, which is slightly risky.
And... Paul may not have outright said this, but he feels betrayed by what Diana did but still respects her and wants to respect her. By keeping her totally out of the loop, he takes away the possibility for her to confirm that she is actually doing this; Paul can think that maybe there's something she hasn't noticed, or maybe there's a secret reason that will eventually come up, or maybe she's just using slower influence than he was prepared to tolerate...
...Anything to never have to think, "Diana truly thinks that Giovanni ought to be enslaved forever."
If true, then... not the morally perfect thing to do. But emotionally understandable - and he is not responsible for giving Nabu every possible chance if it risks Giovanni! Paul took responsibility for saving Giovanni (which he didn't have to, but he's a superhero,) but Nabu was a very nasty criminal from the start of this mess, even if he had good PR for himself. He did not have a right to be given seventh and eighth chances, when that put innocents at risk.
EDIT: Bringing it to the U.N. could work - that goes above the League to a more neutral party - but the problem is A) That means publicizing what the League did, which Paul thinks is a Bad Idea and B) It means capturing Nabu, because... he has proven too able to just flee, and doesn't seem to have respect for ethics or law, only his own conception of Order. Which puts everything back at, "Can't tell them unless you trust Nabu, who keeps betraying hosts and shows no inclination to do anything else when he believes he has the power to be untouchable."
Since it involves capturing Nabu... things are back at square one.
The alternative is to just accept it, put all the eggs in a single basket, and warn Nabu in advance, but again - Nabu hasn't made any moves towards ceasing his enslaving ways, and if he is informed without being captured then he can just leave and probably will. Trying to negotiate with another Lord of Order to feel things out resulted in political-speak for, "I will mention that if he wants to he can stop enslaving Giovanni, but even if you kill a Lord of Chaos for us I will not actually exert any influence to have him stop enslaving Giovanni."
Further EDIT:
It might still have been best to start by swearing Diana to secrecy with something appropriately secure and trying to convince her, but to keep that from Doctor Fate would still be difficult, because Diana will be with Fate a lot of the time. It requires assuming that Doctor Fate can't get the information from her, which is slightly risky.
And... Paul may not have outright said this, but he feels betrayed by what Diana did but still respects her and wants to respect her. By keeping her totally out of the loop, he takes away the possibility for her to confirm that she is actually doing this; Paul can think that maybe there's something she hasn't noticed, or maybe there's a secret reason that will eventually come up, or maybe she's just using slower influence than he was prepared to tolerate...
...Anything to never have to think, "Diana truly thinks that Giovanni ought to be enslaved forever."
If true, then... not the morally perfect thing to do. But emotionally understandable - and he is not responsible for giving Nabu every possible chance if it risks Giovanni! Paul took responsibility for saving Giovanni (which he didn't have to, but he's a superhero,) but Nabu was a very nasty criminal from the start of this mess, even if he had good PR for himself. He did not have a right to be given seventh and eighth chances, when that put innocents at risk.
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- Location
- Earth, 3rd rock from the Sun
I am on OL's side overall in this whole mess, placing the lions share of the blame for the debacle on Nabu's own actions making himself untenable as a partner, followed by the League's inactions and idiot ball holding, followed distantly by Wally having agreed to look for a new host, and then breaking that promise and putting a sentient person on a shelf. But Wally is a minor in the care and supervisions of others, so most of his fault here I have folded into the League responsibility and negligence. None of the setup for this was OL's responsibility. Honestly neither was dealing with the aftermath, but he rightly stepped up once something started smelling rotten in Denmark and the people who should have been responsible for fixing it became part of the problem.
Once Nabu got voted an actual member of the Justice League without Zatanna and others in the know being sat down and told that no, he is not an actual voting member, and this is a story for the public to keep an eye on Giovanni's body and prevent a public panic, treating them as compromised was absolutely the right thing to do. After Wonder Woman did not understand why 'Fate' was not released from the suppression chains when that was an unpresendented chance to force a release while Nabu was contained and unable to escape, instead letting him loose in the world was unbelievable.
But OL has been building an echo chamber here, only bring in people into the know that were explicitly, specifically beholden to him, and owed him. Zatanna, desperate to get her father back. Jade, helped her go legit, including cushy job and character reference. Siskin, literal owes OL his existence. Adom, was in Giovanni's shoes for a long time before OL freed him, and also singlehandedly massacred a small army that attacked his homeland. John, made him more mainstream and seem less of a White Albatross. Also handed him the reigns of unfathomable magical power. People that would have felt beholden to him regardless of the cause.
There are other people he could have been involving that I think he avoided approaching not because they would not have been useful (like Zoat claimed the last time it came up) but because they might have disagreed, or agreed, but wanted a different approach.
Like the Queen of the Amazons, Wonder Woman's mother. Presumably trustworthy, and able to lay down a lot of influence and authority over Wonder Woman. Moreover, she is NOT in Nabu's orbit, and is at the heart of one of the two most magically protected nations on the planet. He could have approached her at any time. He never did. I refuse to believe she would have nothing to contribute to the effort.
When he dropped off Klarion, he could have sounded out the guy in charge of all of China while they were face to face, and he admitted he owed you big. Make some comparisons to Nabu (the alien) taking over to the Durlan problem they have. Do you really think he couldn't keep it behind closed doors so the Leagues does not loose face publicly?
dhasenan
always lowercase
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Diana can extract information from people, but it's not exactly subtle. M'gann can extract information from people, but anyone with any psychic training can detect it.
If Nabu starts rummaging around in the League's minds and they notice, they're likely to take it as an attack. Unfortunately, this doesn't result in the good ending.
Though Paul can go to actual gods and ask them for help. Nabu probably doesn't talk to gods all that often, and they are likely able to keep their minds and realms protected from Nabu.
Agreed - including the small amount of blame on OL implied by 'lion's share' instead of 'all' with regards to the blame placed on Nabu.
Also, Wallace may have actually been looking for partner-mages - he learned alchemy from somewhere, after all, so if nothing else he's clearly been investigating magic, if not just outright learning it from someone.
As a point of note - Nabu was a full voting member of the Justice League. He was not, 'Publicly a Justice League member but privately on probation for his ongoing enslavement' - he was able to vote to keep OL out, for instance.
It is true that OL only brought in people to the fight who he absolutely trusted to agree with him...
...except Cornwall Boy, who was too useful to ignore.
And this is important too: The Ghost of Marrack Past agreed with OL. Even if you say that Alan wouldn't speak up for what is Right or did not understand the full scope of what was going on... Even if you say that Adom would not disagree - respectfully - with OL should Adom think it appropriate, as he desires his own advisors to do with his decisions... That's at least one voice who made an impromptu speech about how Nabu Is Wrong, not just in this specific case where the details might be warped by perspective, but the very idea of what he is doing is wrong.
Cornwall Boy was useful, so OL approached him - late in the process, admittedly. Now, the agreement was that if Cornwall Boy did not agree, then he would have his memories of the decision suppressed - but Cornwall Boy was absolutely allowed to ask questions, to explain his disquiet with the idea, and to get advice from The Ghost of Marrack Past.
Now to be clear: What I am about to say is not a morally perfect reason to avoid talking to Amazons, Hippolyta especially. But it is an emotionally impactful one, at least.
I do not want to have to tell a mother that I think her beloved child is supporting a monster who keeps a slave in bondage by having threatened his child.
Now - for more logical, dispassionate reasons? This is a matter Paul wants to keep quiet to preserve the image of the Justice League as good, because they broadly are good. For similar reasons he was willing to compromise and keep Lex Luthor's image good, if Lex were willing to actually do good. He won't help bad people look good, he won't help good people avoid their mistakes... But he will keep things quiet, sometimes, when he thinks that mistakes should be fixed in private for the sake of peace. Sometimes.
Queen Hippolyta is a queen... so she has less ability to exercise that option. Not no ability! But less. And to use her against Wonder Woman would carry all the same issues and more of simply talking to Diana himself - she has in a practical way cast her lot with Nabu, he wants in an emotional way to preserve the uncertainty that allows him to feel less betrayed, in a dispassionate sense to bring her in risks interaction with Nabu because she's his daily coworker and he is a magic-user and so, as John shows often, he can influence the minds and detect the information of those around him.
(Also she works with Batman, who would be more able to keep a secret - but Batman is clearly handling this terribly from his inappropriately brief and unhelpful interaction with Zatanna, and his reputation as Unbeatable God Of Secrets And Investigation is clearly false already because of the failure with Match, so maybe he's not more able to keep a secret after all?)
Paul does not, in fact, approve of how China handles superfunctionaries. He doesn't have a big problem with it, he thinks they handle things better in some ways even. But he would not want to give them the sheer power to ruin the League's ability to be trusted and thus do their overwhelmingly-good work that revealing this would allow.
---
Part of the reason I argue on behalf of Paul's actions is that... Of the characters involved, I think he did act the best of them, though he was noticeably short of a reasonable ideal handling.
But at the same time... I don't have many better ideas for what to do. Even using drones and bombs - Nabu has shown the ability to interface with technology on a grand level when he worked against Oceanus. So, if the bombs are scry-warded and hidden, and they're used extremely sparingly, and they can both avoid harming Giovanni and meaningfully affect Nabu...
I feel like we're not left with any actual viable payloads. A smokescreen would harm Team Orange more than Nabu, and anything else that would actually hinder Nabu would be dangerous to Giovanni.
Paul is dealing with a really nasty hostage situation here; if he only had to kill Nabu without saving Giovanni at the same time (or even, just being allowed to risk a medium-to-high chance of Giovanni being killed) then yeah, scry-warded bombs go boom. Sure, Nabu won't co-operate with a ritual like Klarion did (because Nabu, for all his faults, is not as stupid as Klarion) but there's options.
Just... Nabu has a hostage, and that negates most of those options.
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- Location
- Earth, 3rd rock from the Sun
I know. Let me repeat for emphasis.
We the reader know for a fact Nabu is a full voting member and it is exactly what it said on the tin only because someone asked the author and he gave a WoG. But Ol did not have that option. He can only know what he can see and is told in the story. Since that did not happen, it is not wrong for him to take the League at their word, and treat them as an obstacle to be worked around rather than allies to be recruited. No matter how much he wished it was not the case. I think he was hoping and privately believed there was something more going on until Nabu was contained in the Manacles and Wonder Woman unthinkingly dashed his hopes.
I would consider Cornwall Boy as someone else who OL made sure owed him before being approached. He was worried about not measuring up to his legacy because of much of the magic teachings were lost to the entire line by a past member not wanting to take up the mantle and blowing off the teachings, refusing to learn and pass it. Who convinced him that contacting an ancestor was not some reprehensible foul necromancy to be shunned, and persuaded Constantine to set contact the best tutor for him, as well as helping him get in touch with his past? Before he ever even broached the subject, IIRC.
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I am very confused. If Nabu is a member, why would that make Paul trust the League? You seem to be missing a negation somewhere - I am saying that Nabu is publicly a full voting member, voted in publicly by the League as an ideal of heroism. That means they shouldn't be trusted too far with trying to handle Nabu, since they did not contact Zatanna/anyone in private about it.
And we the readers know that this wasn't a case of forgetting to tell people about the secret not-voting probationary membership, but rather the League actually voted them in.
Well, shit.
If we count everyone OL has ever tried to help as being beholden to him, by that metric - which I disagree with - he should have just gone to the League. A lot of them owe him.
By those standards, Diana owes him her son. And let us not forget that there is another way to put this:
By engaging in all his dealings with honesty and integrity as much as possible, people come to know that OL is usually honest and serious about what he says. This isn't some manipulative plot. This is the effects of OL being honest so often that people notice that he's usually honest.
Not to mention - whether Cornwall Boy was or was not in OL's 'debt' - OL wasn't sure he would agree, Cornwall Boy wasn't sure he would agree, and neither of them based their decisions upon your supposed debt-relationship.
Beta Mu
Deeply Confused
- Location
- Sol System, Local Cluster
In regards to the current debate, my opinion is "Meh, I'm just glossing over this".
But for a much more important matter, I have a good question for everyone: Who is going to be the next target of Paul's lovingly cultured RAGE for 8 months?
But for a much more important matter, I have a good question for everyone: Who is going to be the next target of Paul's lovingly cultured RAGE for 8 months?
The Reach, duh. After a brief stint of shouting down whatever Controller suggests abandoning the Darkstars and making an Effigy-slave.
Paul is in the DC universe. He's not going to run out of justified targets for his ire for a long time... nor will he run out of targets that are massively out of his immediate, er, grasp.
Eventually, after all, he might want to go after that plane-hopping evil Superboy... (If they exist in this conception?)
There is a reason that in the Red Lantern alternate universe, he was brutal but still managed to be reasonably heroic. Not as heroic, but not too bad.
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- Location
- Just hanging
I think Paul was trying to optimize his options as best as possible without giving away the fact that he was more or less planning on killing a member of the Justice League. He was also forced to accommodate the survival of Giovanna instead of straight up stabbing the helmet with the Sword of the Fallen, which resulted in the creation of the anti-magic chains and using the drain batteries from his alternate counterpart, and the inclusion of Cornwall Boy who can absorb magic despite his worries that may result in League finding out.
Paul is mored worried that Sephtian, who is more or less a high ranking magical engineer, might be implicated for the creation of the magic objects that he used in the confrontation. When compared to Adom who is, despite his benevolent actions so far, is considered a dictator by some or most outside of his country.
Yes he could have told others about his plans or asked for help but this could have ruined his chances, similar to how the Queen asked him to keep his investigation unwrapped due to how some of the other amazons may react negatively to the fact that he maybe helping known traitors. For all he knew Nabu could have used his magical knowledge and power to remain out of Paul's grasp or use what influence he had to convince the others that Paul was something of a security risk, similarly to how he had moments of strange behavior due to his exposure of orange light and magic leading to him putting others in danger.
There's also the biased that Nabu/Fate has been around longer and has been shown to help the forces of good, where Paul is the new comer with good intentions though sometimes his methods are questionable and isn't afraid to cross certain lines that most heroes consider sacred or important.
TL; DR the situation was a all around catch-22 and not everyone was going home happy no matter how many loyalty missions Paul accomplished.
Paul is mored worried that Sephtian, who is more or less a high ranking magical engineer, might be implicated for the creation of the magic objects that he used in the confrontation. When compared to Adom who is, despite his benevolent actions so far, is considered a dictator by some or most outside of his country.
Yes he could have told others about his plans or asked for help but this could have ruined his chances, similar to how the Queen asked him to keep his investigation unwrapped due to how some of the other amazons may react negatively to the fact that he maybe helping known traitors. For all he knew Nabu could have used his magical knowledge and power to remain out of Paul's grasp or use what influence he had to convince the others that Paul was something of a security risk, similarly to how he had moments of strange behavior due to his exposure of orange light and magic leading to him putting others in danger.
There's also the biased that Nabu/Fate has been around longer and has been shown to help the forces of good, where Paul is the new comer with good intentions though sometimes his methods are questionable and isn't afraid to cross certain lines that most heroes consider sacred or important.
TL; DR the situation was a all around catch-22 and not everyone was going home happy no matter how many loyalty missions Paul accomplished.
GilliamYaeger
M'crazy.
Red Lantern Paul is firmly in antihero territory.
...It probably makes him wildly popular, thinking about it.
shepsquared
Erratic Aussie
- Location
- Melbourne, Australia
Meanwhile Paragon is so lawful he's willing to comply with arrest
Silveraith
Argent Phantasm
- Location
- Terra Atlantus
Wrong thread man.
- Status