With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Twelve)

Avernus · Mar 7, 2017

Given that he can easily restore body parts, amputation actually isn't that unreasonable a way of restraining people.

GodKiller999 said:
Grayven could curbstomp Paul by using the formula that gives super speed + the SotF. Also Grayven could summon Ophidian or Parallax too, since emotional entities are easy as pie to summon in this setting for some reason.

Velocity Ten no longer works for him; he developed a resistance to it. OL can probably out-speed him now with Accelerated Perception.

And summoning either of those Entities would likely not occur to him until it was too late. He considered summoning the Ophidian once and rejected it as a bad idea; so it's not likely something that would occur to him in the middle of a battle.

Emstar · Mar 7, 2017

My only reaction to this chapter was maniacal laughter.

Avernus · Mar 7, 2017

Mr Zoat said:
One doesn't really hear a sonic weapon. And not just because they'd burst your eardrums if you were in a position to do so; the variants I'm familiar with either use sound at frequencies much higher or much lower than those a Human can naturally hear. I'm getting a sort of 'whumwhumwhum' from the vibrations that pass through my hands from the weapon and being transmitted through.. my.. bones…

<snip>

Hah! I mean, it's not a black hole gun or anything, but it's still bloody good fun.

Saints Row IV reference? It has both a dubstep gun and a black hole gun, both of which are fun to use.

Mr Zoat · Mar 7, 2017

Chris6666 said:
@Mr Zoat here are the epubs I made up to now.
The Season 1 epub is completed and up to date as of 25/01/2017
The Season 2 epub up to date with the latest chapters and corrections

epub for Season 1 (Episodes 01-26) [MediaFire][MediaFire Alt. Formatting][GoogleDrive] by @Chris6666 (corrections added up to 25/01/2017)
epub for Season 2 (Episodes 27-52) [MediaFire][MediaFire Alt. Formatting][GoogleDrive] by @Chris6666 (chapters up to 07/03/2017)
Note: The Alt versions have background color deep blue and default text color white. Also the transparent text has a darker color as both the background and the text color, and it is also in black borders.
Also both versions have XenForo like threadmarks between episodes while the Alt Versions has similar threadmarks on the individual chapters

Also

Yeaaahh, when I said this:

I was making a joke and a callback!
When I was making the epub and saw text colored greed and I was like "Did Mr Zoat meant to write orange and put greed instead" and then I read the actual text and realised that no, it was supposed to be green instead.rofl::lol
The callback was because back here I found a similar error were color: red was instead color: rage

Thank you, updated.

Avernus · Mar 7, 2017

killfr3nzy said:
Hmm, If we go meta with that point of assumptions of continued power being wrong... Has Zoat every said where the story would end, like when Paul leaves Earth for example? Because 'Last Supper' could refer to Grayven's last victory before something like getting killed by a last-ditch King of Tears release, with his afterlife being part of the Source Wall (don't know how that works for New Gods).

Mr Zoat has talked about Grayven doing things well beyond this point, like experimenting with a form of Divine Awakening that works on Tamaranians.

Krazyfan1 said:
1. .....is Savage still naked?
2. ....if so, is there a way to change that?

Mr Zoat said:
1: Let's say not.

Construct Lanterns are solid; logically he could just wear normal clothing and would only be naked if respawning.

Mr Zoat · Mar 7, 2017

Coda said:
Zoat's interpretation has consistently been that baseline Earth-16 humans are tougher and stronger than baseline Earth-Prime humans -- the "average" line on Earth-16 is where the "athlete" line is here.

I have?

IIRC he said that it's likely that the events of third season will have been butterflied away by the events of WtR.

We don't know that for certain yet.

FourthPear said:
...just realized...is Cassandra even alive yet?

The Renegade doesn't know.

Coda · Mar 7, 2017

Mr Zoat said:
I have?

Yes, you have. I might have the specific point of comparison wrong (it might not be as high as "athlete" perhaps), but you HAVE said that Earth-16 humans are tougher than Earth-Prime ones.

Cheap Orange Knofe · Mar 7, 2017

killfr3nzy said:
More of a 'can't believe immortals can die' thing, but I think I get your point - he considered Mordru to be unkillable and therefore undefeatable, and thought the same of himself.

Hmm, If we go meta with that point of assumptions of continued power being wrong... Has Zoat every said where the story would end, like when Paul leaves Earth for example? Because 'Last Supper' could refer to Grayven's last victory before something like getting killed by a last-ditch King of Tears release, with his afterlife being part of the Source Wall (don't know how that works for New Gods).

Of course, even if it's not the end of the story, OL/Grayven could be separated from their followers for a time right after they off the BBG of the current section, resulting in chaos as their followers have to move forward with the plan without help and with the possibility that their leader is gone forever - only to return after three days, stronger and wiser. And then supporting them only with more distant knowledge and power, while residing in a different, 'higher' realm?

Hmm hmm... Lord of Order plus Lord of Chaos interaction & Lord of Tears dimensional fuckery results in our SI's switching places? Each residing in a world where their double took the opposite path of focus, yet recently alienated his allies by attempting their own tactics?
Paul in a world where his double bulldozed through others objections and focused on ingroup empowerment, yet just finished eliminating the Light by forging a working alliance between government and Justice League?
Grayven in a world where his double toadied to the JL and focused on helping what seems like every one other than himself, yet just pissed of both the Light and the JL by assassinating a member of each and attempting to usurp their mantles of power for his own allies?
Each gaining an understanding of the strengths, weaknesses and alternate takes on their own specialty, and seeing the same of the one they avoided?
Skillgains? Personal growth? Crossovers? Tantalizing hint yet denial of promises of future content?

It may be more likely than you think...

FakeEdit: Why yes, I am tired, incoherent and out of it.

paul wins because flying ice fortress and ophidian
Grayven wins because he has jade.

Masked Thespian · Mar 7, 2017

query said:
I wonder if Vandal made contingencies against all the other members of the Light in the event of betrayal?

So... Vandal Savage is the Light's version of Batman, then?

Lazurman · Mar 7, 2017

Masked Thespian said:
So... Vandal Savage is the Light's version of Batman, then?

A significantly less cool, more retarded version, if that.

Besides, it's not like Batman has sole ownership over the idea of being prepared.

Tactical Tunic · Mar 7, 2017

jaelin910 said:
knowing how to fight really well without super strength could be useful if he ever gets de-powered enough to need it.

Or needs to train a human who doesn't have super strength, like most of his allies, Lynn in a few years, Jade on the off chance that she wants to smooth out a few wrinkles in her martial arts form. Lady Shiva does make top tier martial artists.

iamnuff · Mar 7, 2017

jcw3 said:
Pity he didn't assimilate her. She probably knew some impressive wuxia martial arts. Could have been useful.

Jade might have appreciated her tutelage, or maybe she'd actually respect Shiva and not be keen on the whole assimilated mentor thing.
It does feel a little wasteful to just gib the greatest martial-artist in the world. Even if regular martial-arts don't actually work when you are or are dealing with superhumans.

Can construct-lanterns learn?
If she became that skilled at such a young age, she might just be an outright genius. Giving her super-strength somehow and setting her to the task of creating a superhuman martial-art could bare fruit.

I doubt you can Awaken or Danner a construct though.

hance1986 · Mar 7, 2017

gourdcaptain said:
I didn't think the Sword had anything to do with its targets being magic users or not. Is Savage just talking on his baseless assumptions here?

And immortality does not mean unkillable or indestructible. All it means is that aging can't touch you.

I would have loved for Grayven to ring playback his exchange with Mordru where he says he doesn't like Savage because it's like the caveman wants a prize for merely existing.

PaperMache7 · Mar 7, 2017

Avernus said:
Velocity Ten no longer works for him; he developed a resistance to it. OL can probably out-speed him now with Accelerated Perception.

While I'm aware that he's it lasts less than it used to, I don't think he's immune to it.

Avernus said:
And summoning either of those Entities would likely not occur to him until it was too late. He considered summoning the Ophidian once and rejected it as a bad idea; so it's not likely something that would occur to him in the middle of a battle.

If Paul has already used his I'm pretty sure he'd do the same, just for the sake of surviving.

Coda · Mar 7, 2017

GodKiller999 said:
While I'm aware that he's it lasts less than it used to, I don't think he's immune to it.

That was months ago in-story, and he noted then that he wasn't sure how long it would keep being able to do anything to him at all.

2xMachina · Mar 7, 2017

GodKiller999 said:
While I'm aware that he's it lasts less than it used to, I don't think he's immune to it.

If Paul has already used his I'm pretty sure he'd do the same, just for the sake of surviving.

You do not want 2 Ophidian's in the same planet. That way lies madness.
Jealous ~~cat~~snake-fight will be an understatement.

Yarudazuigu · Mar 7, 2017

Mr Zoat said:
Not really. It's come up a couple of times, but normal martial arts just aren't useful for people with super strength or super toughness. They assume things that just aren't true. Wrestling is useful, submission and choke holds and joint locks. Striking isn't.

Heh. Lets agree to disagree, since even simple boxing lessons would improve Superman's performance. Like learning to not wear pants over his trousers.
I think you are making here assumptions about martial-arts as something like moves from vidya-gajmu. Or fiction where little kids shout attack names after posing for half an hour.

Primary thing that martial-arts teach someone is how to efficiently use one's body. To move it and how to inflict maximum harm on someone while inflicting minimum harm on the self. Super-strenght, speed or toughness only change the methodology needed in learning how to throw a most efficient punch there. Because, lets face it fairly, Bats or Diana are kind of meh in the combat training or martial arts.

And they are the most accomplished, in the martial arts, dudes in the Justice League! But when we look at it with a sensible and critical eye? Batman is a bruiser, self-taught one too ... paranoia is as much of a detriment as it might be halpful.

Diana? She is very experienced fighter, yes, but her swordwork is the same old Greek hoplite training, like other Amazons who had peace for thousands of years, and thus grew rusty outside of rote moves. Otherwise they wouldn't have their asses kicked around so much when threats raise their ugly head on Themiscyra.
Same deal with Diana. Were she a properly trained "Achilles"? She would always aim to kill the foe. She would laugh hard after being presented with the "costume" (that I remain unconvinced it wasn't a massive prank on Diana, or a theft from fetish store) and ask if she can just wear her old hoplite armour.

Grayven insta-gibbing Shiva? Sensible reaction. Grayven knows his own limits and knows that were she in close-range Shiva could give him possibly lethal surprise. If the sword was magical, for example, or she jabbed it into his eye. Grayven learned he isn't invincible just yesterday.

So yes, a shame that such fine lady died while covered in Savage of all people. But ... correct decision for Grayven. She was, unlike Savage, a genuine threat.

Coda · Mar 7, 2017

Yarudazuigu said:
Heh. Lets agree to disagree, since even simple boxing lessons would improve Superman's performance. Like learning to not wear pants over his trousers.

No, boxing would not help someone who has to hold back because optimizing his punching strength would simply put his fist THROUGH his opponent.

Wrestling would be better, understanding the way the body moves and how to restrict that movement without causing lasting damage.

Judo is also reasonable, redirecting and controlling your opponent's force instead of fighting with your own. However, things like learning how to take falls when you can just tank the hits is not particularly helpful and potentially counterproductive.

Ultimately, while the generalized idea of martial arts training WOULD be valuable to someone with super strength and super toughness, these traits demand a different kind of martial arts. Martial arts is all about discipline and control over one's body, and when one's body is different the training must also be different. No regimen tailored to a human-baseline individual would be a particularly good fit.

And that's not taking non-brawling superpowers into account. If you can FLY, then training on how to pin an opponent against a mat is counterproductive and limits your options.

EDIT: Also, I'm not sure that Batman actually IS self-taught. I'm pretty sure Bruce Wayne has studied martial arts under a master.

Sceptic · Mar 7, 2017

Coda said:
EDIT: Also, I'm not sure that Batman actually IS self-taught. I'm pretty sure Bruce Wayne has studied martial arts under a master.

Following the links in the most recent update would suggest that, at least in some DC universe, you're quite correct on that.

Avernus · Mar 7, 2017

Yarudazuigu said:
Heh. Lets agree to disagree, since even simple boxing lessons would improve Superman's performance.

It's already been mentioned in-story that he spars with Wonder Woman.

random_npc · Mar 7, 2017

Mr Zoat said:
"I never truly trusted you. I thought that your devotion of the future of humanity was genuine, but that you lacked… Vision, where hard methods were required. Mordru was intended as your opposite; disinterested but ruthless. And alerted by this medallion, he-"

by vision I think he means complete and utter sociopathy. Dudes been playing this game literally longer than mankind has had writing, he never stoped to think their may be a reason he hasn't made any progress. I mean he admits to being ok with brining mordu onboard even though he knew the guy didn't give a crap about their goals. That's the kind of thing a warlord does, not something a skilled manager does.

Mr Zoat said:
I blast her to pieces with a bolt of orange light, chunks of painfully-outclassed martial artist raining down around the room. It's really nice to have that option back, without having to get my head into the fear-space.

bad way to go out for her. Dying not in some grand fight against a hundred foes, or by finally finding someone who's a better fighter than her. Casually swatted by someone who's power makes her skills simply irrelevant. Also maybe a bit of a waste, worlds best martial artist sounds exactly like the kind of person who would really benefit from the new god and danner combo package. She'd be far from the most unstable person in grayvens employ.

Mr Zoat said:
"This won't work!" Finally he loses his cool! "I'll come back! I always come back! I am immort-!"

did he really not think about that? wow, talk about complacent. So sure of his immortality that he didn't think to check about the method of permanently and irrevocably enslaving someone that he knew someone who may turn on him had. well that's a fairly perfect death for him. dying because he was too arrogant to realize he might even be at risk.

BrambleThorn · Mar 7, 2017

Jamie Roberts said:
What point is there in existing if you don't do some confrontational grandstanding at least sometimes? None!

Also, pulling off a successful monologue gives you a XP multiplier

Mr Zoat said:
Actually, she does it for fun, doesn't she? Wouldn't that make her an amateur?

Ideally you pick a profession you love, so you get paid for doing what you want to do anyway. Not getting paid doesn't mean she is an amateur, but it does mean she is reducing the value of her professional brand.

backgroundnoise said:
Make up your mind comic books, people either are baseline humans or they are not baseline humans, you don't get to have your cake and eat it too.

What do you think a baseline human is? If a learned skill the average person can learn can let you do something extraordinary, a baseline learning it does not mean they stop being baseline. A magic using human in DC can do a lot more than a magic using human here. That does not mean the average humans in DC are not baseline, it means either they are learning better magic than is being taught here, or their universe has a better physics engine. Shit like lethal fingernails is the same. The guy using it is not anything but a regular human, you are just underestimating what a regular human can do when the irregular can be taught.

spencer1519 · Mar 7, 2017

Mr Zoat said:
"This won't work!" Finally he loses his cool! "I'll come back! I always come back! I am immort-!"

Mediocre.

Pinklestia · Mar 7, 2017

So... is someone holding Jade hostage?

Coda · Mar 7, 2017

BrambleThorn said:
That does not mean the average humans in DC are not baseline

It doesn't, but it doesn't NOT mean it, either. It's independent. And DC baseline humans on the whole do indeed appear to be somewhat tougher than real-world baseline humans, and with a substantially higher top end.

With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Twelve)

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