So I realized after some talk on discord that the Ymaryn were probably a caste system during DGE.

This revelation is sapping my motivation to see them win.

I always thought the Ymaryn culture was almost unrealistically egalitarian... I mean, yes, there is stratification between nobles, commoners, priests and those who are "down and out". My admittedly faint memory of the original quest was that there was a great deal of peacetime social mobility though.

Strong class stratification is kinda a normal part of agrarian empires. And people who didn't have rights to land and weren't part of the priesthood generally had a pretty miserable lot. Even the urban craftsman/merchant class often divided into "those with land rights/shop license rights who can have workshops or warehouses" and the itinerants who were stuck working for the "haves" for their whole lives. So these things existing in Ymaryn society is not surprising. That the nobility allow themselves to be reduced in their power as a class due to collective guilt about about failing their responsibilities to the greater society is surprising, and is a thing that has happened with great rarity in real history.

Anyway, this quest looks awesome so far. I am glad you started it and I hope this continues.

And I particularly like that you have used the real world as the basis for your maps.

fasquardon
 
So I realized after some talk on discord that the Ymaryn were probably a caste system during DGE.

Since I've missed this, I'll through my thoughts in. The Ymaryn didn't have outright caste systems and weren't anymore caste like than other societies in history. Before you get public education, it is hard to get social mobility due to the fact that a proper education is limited, mainly to the rich and wealthy, who also happened to be the powerful and influential. Furthermore, most education would have been an apprenticeship and those useful started in childhood amongst the family. A farmer will teach their kids to work on a farm from when their ages is in the single digits while a carpenter, a woodsman, an artisan and other occupation would do the same. Your social mobility would be limited by our education as you can do the job you spent your life learning or you try something brand new where you would be competing against the guys who spend their lives in that line of work.

Is this actually why the meritocracy system broke down rather than working out as some posters foolishly believed it would. The race to social position began in your childhood where you got taught by your family and as a result, you stayed in your parent's rung of life because that is what you got taught growing up and know how to do. You only really got social mobility in that sort of life when something when wrong such as someone being knocked down a peg or someone being raised to fill a position that was recently left empty.

If you want to avoid that sort of thing, you need to have a more fantastical society (which is what I've done in my quest) or go for a modern/sci-fi society. The lack of social mobility was a real if unfortunate thing for most of history and unless you are going to go unrealistic, it is going to be a thing that happens.
 
Yeah, we did have more social mobiliy than most, and I even remember we opened up some academies to all classes. We also had widespread public education provided through our temples. It just stratified because we placed such an emphasis on anti-corruption, being the best you can be, and being of both physical and mental purity that it ultimately created a race to the top. We also didn't have the resources to constantly expand our roads and academies to meet our constant influx of refugees that we were milking to destroy our enemies (by destabilizing them) and to get free Econ. Those resources constantly had to be instead spent on balancing the constantly-mounting Jenga tower that Academia Nut honestly never expected us to survive, hence why he eventually just had to handwave and force a gameover because he wanted to move to a different era with a soft reboot.

Basically, we created the so-called "Enlightened Monarchy/Aristocracy" with our emphasis on hierarchial structure for stability and providing the best for the community.
 
The other problem with social mobility in the classical ages was that society was something like 80-90% agrarian. 9 out of 10 people are farmers. It's damned hard to have mobility because there isn't much space to move up into. This is also combined with the problem that farmers are spread over the country widely. They have little political power save causing problems. They can't run anything because they are too busy running farms.
 
The other problem with social mobility in the classical ages was that society was something like 80-90% agrarian. 9 out of 10 people are farmers. It's damned hard to have mobility because there isn't much space to move up into. This is also combined with the problem that farmers are spread over the country widely. They have little political power save causing problems. They can't run anything because they are too busy running farms.
From what I remember, near the end, a surprisingly large percentage of our population was becoming urban. We still had an agrarian majority of course, but we were already on the cusp of an early British-style industrialization process.
 
Basically, the Ymaryn weren't caste-based, they just had the same limitations of any other society prior to industrialisation.
 
Well there is also the fact that all agrarian societies in history will stratify into something very much alike a class system.
this is because of the regular cycle of bad harvest years leading to farmers being in dept to the more successful/lucky farmers.
They can then use this money/dept to further increase there lands, thus further insulating themselves against famines. There now larger lands also means they can give out more food in times of famine thus getting more farmers in dept to them.
This will always happen unless something hinders it. This is nearly always the central state who wants a counter weight against powerful nobles. It's also usually easier to draft independent farmers then those working under powerful nobles.
 
Guys, I am starting to think you are going too heavy on the RL comparisons that you aren't paying attention to the ways in which the Ymaryn state stratified. Like, it's far from a 1:1 comparison. I'd even go as far to say most of the points of comparison being raised are outright inapplicable to what actually happened with the Ymaryn state.
 
Guys, I am starting to think you are going too heavy on the RL comparisons that you aren't paying attention to the ways in which the Ymaryn state stratified. Like, it's far from a 1:1 comparison. I'd even go as far to say most of the points of comparison being raised are outright inapplicable to what actually happened with the Ymaryn state.
AN kept a lot of things hidden from the main thread on its discord. And there were always people that would point with massive posts explaining this real life example indicates events are supposed to lead this specific way, or that this thing is what must be taken for an advantage that will not matter.

I've been left with the feeling that civ quests are incapable of being anything else than repeat railroaded things.
 
Yeah, we did have more social mobiliy than most, and I even remember we opened up some academies to all classes. We also had widespread public education provided through our temples.

We did? I thought the academy were only exclusive to the elite.

I think the temples provide religious service and make sure that farming is done correctly, but the peasants would also have the lore on how to farm as well.
 
Vote Closed
Adhoc vote count started by Aranfan on Nov 21, 2020 at 8:32 PM, finished with 96 posts and 14 votes.

  • [X] Plan Kushy Math and Khem
    -[X] Authority: Reestablish Administrative Control, Hills: Restore the mechanisms of control over the hills between the Core and Txolla. The flow of taxes, orders, and information must be restored. (20%. 3 years. More defensible border, Profitable.)
    -[X] Authority: Touch the Cow, Do it Now:, Txolla: The Sacred Warding in Txolla is in shambles. Order some of the priests to do their best to repair it. (???%. 2 years. +Txolla Loyalty. Possible +Influence)
    -[X] Authority: Diplomatic Contact, Khemetri: Who are the Khemetri these days even? Try to reach out and establish dialogue and relations. (???%. 1 Year.)
    -[X] Influence: Diplomatic Contact, Vynta: Who are the Vynta and what do they want? (???%. 1 Year.)
    -[X] Influence: Diplomatic Overview, Monsoon Sea: You have no knowledge of what barbarian powers are important in the Monsoon Sea. In your current position of weakness that ignorance could be deadly. (90%, 1 year. Overview of Kus and Monsoon Sea powers.)
    -[X] Influence: Kus Numerals: The traders have some interesting things to say about their Kus counterpart's account books. Something about better numbers? The old number glyphs have served perfectly well for thousands of years, but maybe these numerals are worth looking into? (60%. 1 Year.)
    -[X] Influence: Much Ado about Nothing: The Kus traders have said some things that have the priests in a titter. Some priests are asking for permission to travel to Kus to get more information. It's probably nothing important. (???%. 1 year.)
    -[X] Attend to a particular action personally. (Provides bonus to action)
    --[X] Kus Numerals
    [X] Plan Surveys
    -[X] Authority: Reestablish Administrative Control, Hills: Restore the mechanisms of control over the hills between the Core and Txolla. The flow of taxes, orders, and information must be restored. (20%. 3 years. More defensible border, Profitable.)
    -[X] Authority: Touch the Cow, Do it Now:, Txolla: The Sacred Warding in Txolla is in shambles. Order some of the priests to do their best to repair it. (???%. 2 years. +Txolla Loyalty. Possible +Influence)
    -[X] Authority: Diplomatic Contact, Khemetri: Who are the Khemetri these days even? Try to reach out and establish dialogue and relations. (???%. 1 Year.)
    -[X] Influence: Diplomatic Contact, Vynta: Who are the Vynta and what do they want? (???%. 1 Year.)
    -[X] Influence: Diplomatic Overview, Monsoon Sea: You have no knowledge of what barbarian powers are important in the Monsoon Sea. In your current position of weakness that ignorance could be deadly. (90%, 1 year. Overview of Kus and Monsoon Sea powers.)
    -[X] Influence: Survey Memory of Spirits Province: Memory of Spirits has been surveyed many times, but technology and the skill of surveyors is always improving. It might be possible to find something of use in the hills. (???%. 1 Year. Resources?)
    -[X] Influence: Survey Homevalley Province: Homevalley has been surveyed many times, but technology and the skill of surveyors is always improving. It might be possible to find something of use in the hills. (???%. 1 Year. Resources?)
    -[X] Attend to a particular action personally. (Provides bonus to action)
    --[X] Survey Homevalley
    [X] Plan Styrmyr dipomacy math and surveying
    -[X] Authority: Reestablish Administrative Control, Hills: Restore the mechanisms of control over the hills between the Core and Txolla. The flow of taxes, orders, and information must be restored. (20%. 3 years. More defensible border, Profitable.)
    -[X] Authority: Touch the Cow, Do it Now:, Txolla: The Sacred Warding in Txolla is in shambles. Order some of the priests to do their best to repair it. (???%. 2 years. +Txolla Loyalty. Possible +Influence)
    -[X] Authority: Diplomatic Contact, Khemetri: Who are the Khemetri these days even? Try to reach out and establish dialogue and relations. (???%. 1 Year.)
    -[X] Influence: Diplomatic Contact, Styrmyr: You are most displeased to find that the Styrmyr have decided to immediately conquer Greenshore upon the cessation of the Games. Still, Greenshore were rebels, so maybe the Styrmyr could prove reasonable? (???% 1 Year.)
    -[X] Influence: Survey Homevalley Province: Homevalley has been surveyed many times, but technology and the skill of surveyors is always improving. It might be possible to find something of use in the hills. (???%. 1 Year. Resources?)
    -[X] Influence: Kus Numerals: The traders have some interesting things to say about their Kus counterpart's account books. Something about better numbers? The old number glyphs have served perfectly well for thousands of years, but maybe these numerals are worth looking into? (60%. 1 Year.)
    -[X] Influence: Much Ado about Nothing: The Kus traders have said some things that have the priests in a titter. Some priests are asking for permission to travel to Kus to get more information. It's probably nothing important. (???%. 1 year.)
    -[X] Attend to a particular action personally. (Provides bonus to action)
    --[X] Diplomatic Contact, Styrmyr
 
Well there is also the fact that all agrarian societies in history will stratify into something very much alike a class system.
this is because of the regular cycle of bad harvest years leading to farmers being in dept to the more successful/lucky farmers.
They can then use this money/dept to further increase there lands, thus further insulating themselves against famines. There now larger lands also means they can give out more food in times of famine thus getting more farmers in dept to them.
This will always happen unless something hinders it. This is nearly always the central state who wants a counter weight against powerful nobles. It's also usually easier to draft independent farmers then those working under powerful nobles.
Doesn't quite match here, the farmers are actually the middle class at this juncture, since we've never let them blob up, the land is distributed y the state.
 
Teaching the poor
It seemed these days that there were a hundred school of thoughts. The world did not come to an end, and the apparatus of the state was restored. Nonetheless, when the priests weren't working to support state function, there were recrimination among the priests. Debate raged daily on what ifs, who to blame, how they could change the path of history, whether it was even changeable, and so forth. Debate changed daily and recrimination begun anew as priests changed their minds, sometime arguing positions that they opposed vehemently yesterday. From these debate, new ideas and philosophy incubated. Some of the less busy priests went out and sought resources to make their ideas a reality.

Charlyes was one of them among many. He did not go out to preach or to debate his colleagues. Instead, he gathered a couple of children from the lower classes and just begun teaching, from any parents who didn't object the slightest. He had no idea what he was doing, and the result seemed dismal at first. Nonetheless he persisted as he analyzed his approach and developed theories on how children learned. It was all ad-hoc, unsystematic, with less rigors than he would like, but what mattered to him right now was progress.

Writing, reading, math, history, how to make arguments and how to debate in good faith and reach new conclusions. That was what he focused on. He didn't focused on the Scared Forest, or the various exotic lore, or the history of the world. Why bother? If anything, he was taught by the world around him that people are capable of a lot more than he thought possible, doing roles that their better had previously done, sometime even better. Thus he decided, the children will figure out what they want to learn when they grow older.

"Class dismissed!" Charyles announced with a smile once lunch came. Four hours of schooling with break was as much as these children or parents will tolerate.

"Awww!" the kids collectively whined. The debate on the nature of consciousness were lively to say the least. Even so, it didn't take long for their reluctance to become a rush toward the door. Once his student were gone, a woman entered the room.

"So this is the rumored classroom," the noblewoman said. By her look, she was currently in her thirties, of northern stock, elegant and splendid as any noble lady, but not dressed impractically so. A reflection on the time, when a woman could be recruited to command soldiers, or to enter the bureaucracy.

"Yes, how may I help you?" Charyles asked.

"Didn't they say it's useless to teach the underclass anything?" Somehow, her voice didn't seem to have any strength of conviction or surety. Nonetheless, the naysayers' arguments bounced in his head. Ridicule, contempt from nobles, even skepticism from fellow priests troubled him. Charyles swallowed his breath.

"On the contrary, I found the children quick sponges for knowledge, far faster learner than I hope to ever dreamed of," he said. "But then again, I wasn't a tutor before this."

"Is that so? How would they do any good? What makes them better than nobles?" she asked.

"It is not that I think they are better, but that the voices of the ruling nobles were too loud," he said. "The peasants and everyone else had the right idea. The nobles would be right too if they followed the behavior of their forefathers. But they didn't, because no one question them. No one is able to."

"Interesting!" she said. "Wether the children are bastard progencies of nobles or whether they are simply untapped potential of the underclass, I think your experiment has potential to do good in this world. I am wealthy, but not that wealthy. I will make a donation toward furnishing a school that is...more proper for you and your students." Who was this woman? Why did she come here. Had the idea of public education gained currency when he too busy coming up with education plans and experiments? He put aside these thoughts.

"With respect, my lady," he said, pausing. "I prefer to spend money on students' provision that they can learn. I find that the parents, even when pooling their bwyls, cannot afford adequate nutrition in this trying time." Of course, the state will provide, but sometime it's just plain unappetizing gruel.

The lady smiled. "I will do what I can."
 
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We did? I thought the academy were only exclusive to the elite.

I think the temples provide religious service and make sure that farming is done correctly, but the peasants would also have the lore on how to farm as well.
I said some academies were opened to a larger public, not all. We never got around to fully public academies everywhere for the exact reasons that I mentioned before that the population growth and constant crisis management outpaced our ability to properly upgrade and update our infrastructure.

The temples provided regular teaching in the Greek-style of education, wherein they would teach publicly and you could just go in to learn whenever by just walking in to the temples. It wasn't a literal curriculum, so much as learned people teaching various lessons of the day to the poor and those in need. It's one of those things that wasn't mentioned explicitly in a normal chapter, but I believe was instead mentioned in those narrative chapters from the PoV of an inhabitant of the Ymaryn state.

In general, Ymaryn was literally the most centralized state in the world, and the most urbanized. The only one that matched it was the not!Chinese, which we hadn't met by the time I left the quest around the first Gilded Age. The whole classical model of "nobles own the land and threaten famine for coercion" doesn't apply both because we were explicitly a centralized state with everything divvied up by the state for almost the entire length of the old state, and because we explicitly had systems for free food in the case of famine owned by the state. What to do with those stockpiles was one of the votes when we transitioned from the state-controlled economy to the guild economy. Like, we were literally so centralized that it nearly killed us on at least three separate occasions - and that's only the direct occasions rather than the times where overcentralization made us have to avoid "easy" ways out of crises. Our nobility wasn't based in land ownership, though I do imagine some governed more land than others. It was mostly based in the fact that we had a literally calcified ruling class, not a land-owner class.

Culturally, we were much closer to a Renaissance kingdom, economically we became early industrial Italy, and politically we were more centralized and urbanized* than China to an unprecedented historical scale. You can't blame social stratification on agriculture or "typical classical models" because Ymaryn wasn't a classical state by our historical standards, despite living in classical times.

*We reached a point where we were becoming too urbanized and had to keep expanding just so that people would stop grouping in to cities and consuming resources we needed :p
 
That the nobility allow themselves to be reduced in their power as a class due to collective guilt about about failing their responsibilities to the greater society is surprising, and is a thing that has happened with great rarity in real history.

It's more that they just literally don't have the numbers. The Great Khan killed a huge portion of the nobility. Enough that the state literally could not function without extending power to other classes to pick up the slack. If the nobles hadn't been willing to accept lesser power to keep the state going, the Core would have just utterly collapsed because it would have been impossible to fix the bureaucracy and then the Core would have to try to fix problems it couldn't see with resources it didn't have.

If you hadn't picked the Core, that would have happened. If you hadn't put Authority on Bureaucratic Reforms, it still probably would have happened.
 
It's more that they just literally don't have the numbers. The Great Khan killed a huge portion of the nobility. Enough that the state literally could not function without extending power to other classes to pick up the slack. If the nobles hadn't been willing to accept lesser power to keep the state going, the Core would have just utterly collapsed because it would have been impossible to fix the bureaucracy and then the Core would have to try to fix problems it couldn't see with resources it didn't have.

If you hadn't picked the Core, that would have happened. If you hadn't put Authority on Bureaucratic Reforms, it still probably would have happened.
I do so love that you were willing to commit to putting risks in the opening stages of the Core, even at the risk of salt if the early-quest voters stumbled in to one. I like a sense of risk in quests.
 
The Ymaryn are pretty scrupulous record keepers, but I can imagine things got confused during the Collapse, and maybe now that things are getting back in order, some of the clerks have found out that the dates got an extra century added to them at some point by accident, and now it's being corrected?
 
Huh, that's actually not that far off.

What is the thread's thoughts on retconning the IC year down by 100 to comport with WoAN?
...
Oh yes, a bit of information for you all.

The Ymaryn use the Era Ymaryn calendar for tracking dates. A solar calendar, it is very accurate, and has the end of calendar year occur shortly after the vernal equinox, with leap days included as intercalendary days at the end of the year. However, it also has an issue in that it was devised significantly after its 0 year, as for political reasons the full scale adoption of the Khemetri calendar was seen as being an issue. Instead, the scholars in charge of setting the 0 year chose what they saw of as the founding of their kingdom as being the point to start the calendar. Unfortunately, there was a lot of dodgy scholarship and backroom politics in choosing this year, so not only did the Ymaryn kingdom definitely exist for centuries before Year 0, but the Year 0 didn't even fall on the coronation of a particularly important king. By the time this was actually reviewed and worked out, centuries had passed and the scholars had no interest in changing around all of their dates. Due to cultural influences many nations use the EY calendar without even knowing what the EY stands for, while many others know how to roughly convert between their year count and the Ymaryn year count and are thus comfortable in discussion about the year.

Author's Note: It is entirely coincidental that EY can also stand for Equivalent Year.
*cough*

We...may have done that IC already. :V

There are a number of posts in PoI that do talk about Old Ymaryn

Like how our weeks are six days long

Or how our months are named after farming/divine figures.
 
*cough*

We...may have done that IC already. :V

Unfortunately the math for what AN is saying there just doesn't add up.

1800 EY is 600 years post collapse. Collapse is 1300 years post Alyx. The calendar would have to put the 0 year about 100 years after Alyx.

Considering that the calendar was most likely adopted during the post godfist astrology craze...
 
Unfortunately the math for what AN is saying there just doesn't add up.

1800 EY is 600 years post collapse. Collapse is 1300 years post Alyx. The calendar would have to put the 0 year about 100 years after Alyx.

Considering that the calendar was most likely adopted during the post godfist astrology craze...
My point was that if you moved the dates, it would not be the first time that has happened.
 
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