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Ymaryn Successor Quest (Paths of Civ AU)

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Just going to give it a start, since there aren't all that many options while we wait for Math Reform.

I like the plan of offering a loan to the Khemetri (our support would probably help to boost relations; acceptance and +Opinion is more likely), but would strongly prefer to wait until after our Influence comes back from Sacred Warding Western Wall and/or Train Thunder Plateau. (I consider it likely that the Revaunchists will get angry and take away our sole Influence dice; and we also need an Influence to spare against their usual 10% -Influence, lest long-term projects be cancelled.)
(Edit: I like the Khemetri loan plan in theory, but forgot that there are Prestige issues concerning loans, so plan might not be viable to begin with.)

Offering these alternatives. My preferred plan:

[X] Plan Support Provinces
-[X] Authority: Support Province: Hathytta (85%, 1 Year, Expensive, +Province Loyalty)
-[X] Influence: Support Province: Western Wall (85%, 1 Year, Expensive, +Province Loyalty)
-[X] Personal: Relax with Family (-Stress)

Bolsters Hathytta's tentative loyalty, and supporting Western Wall could have narrative synergies with our Rus outreach (and prevent Western Wall from becoming angry in the future, as we were warned of).

Alternatively, if you want the +0.1 income:

[X] Plan Repay Pamplona
-[X] Authority: Support Province: Hathytta (85%, 1 Year, Expensive, +Province Loyalty)
-[X] Influence: Repay Loan: Pamplona (100%, 1 Year, -1 Treasury, +.1 Income, unlikely +Prestige, loans expire on their own after 100 years)
-[X] Personal: Relax with Family (-Stress)

We still have around 3-4 years to repay loans before the next income tick, so I prefer the former plan, but this is an option.


(If you don't have any particular preference, feel free to approval vote for both.)
 
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Andres110 said:
Khem are doing the canal for Prestige, to keep ahead of us and retain King of the Hill. Taking a loan from anyone - much less the Ymaryn - would damage their Prestige. They will refuse and we will likely offend them.
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While a plausible theory, they bought explosive and shovel from us. Also, borrowing money from other countries doesn't really hurt our prestige gains.

[X] Plan Repay Pamplona
-[X] Authority: Support Province: Hathytta (85%, 1 Year, Expensive, +Province Loyalty)
-[X] Influence: Repay Loan: Pamplona (100%, 1 Year, -1 Treasury, +.1 Income, unlikely +Prestige, loans expire on their own after 100 years)
-[X] Personal: Relax with Family (-Stress)
 
[X] Plan Support Provinces
-[X] Authority: Support Province: Hathytta (85%, 1 Year, Expensive, +Province Loyalty)
-[X] Influence: Support Province: Western Wall (85%, 1 Year, Expensive, +Province Loyalty)
-[X] Personal: Relax with Family (-Stress)
 
[X] Plan Oshha
-[X] Authority: Support Province: Give one of the provinces considerable sums of money to assist in their current infrastructural projects. (85%, 1 Year, Expensive, +Province Loyalty)
--[X] Hathytta
-[X] Influence: Offer Loan: The Melkut Ymaryn is rich beyond measure, but other polities need money too. You could offer to lend them cash when they need it. (Narrative%, 1 year, -1 Treasury, unlikely +Opinion)
--[X] Khemetri
-[X] Personal: Relax with Family (-Stress)

Supporting Hathytta because it is our least loyal province and we need to spend some Treasury whilst offering the Khem a loan to use our more Treasury and set us to improve relations now or potentially by forgiving the loan in the future.
 
Fouredged Sword said:
Because it's a byproduct. Charcoal is still better for a lot of applications, but once you get the investment in place to harvest and distribute the gas it's literally just value add to a process you are already doing. The same economic inputs generates the same outputs as it once did, plus this additional amount.
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Fouredged Sword said:
The first thing people power with woodgas is the charcoal kiln that produces the woodgas.
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I was under the impression that the process of gasification is mutually exclusive with producing charcoal?
 
Kiba said:
I was under the impression that the process of gasification is mutually exclusive with producing charcoal?
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Not to my knowledge. The gasification process leaves behind the solid carbon that makes up charcoal as the volatiles gas off. It's essentially the same process as getting coke and coalgas out of charcoal. You just have a higher tar and water content and some downstream processes don't like that, but if you run your oven hot and long enough you turn the tars into gas as well and this makes the whole system cleaner.

Here is a paper describing the application in far far too much detail than this discussion requires, I just found it hilarious that this exists.

 
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Kiba said:
While a plausible theory, they bought explosive and shovel from us. Also, borrowing money from other countries doesn't really hurt our prestige gains.

[X] Plan Repay Pamplona
-[X] Authority: Support Province: Hathytta (85%, 1 Year, Expensive, +Province Loyalty)
-[X] Influence: Repay Loan: Pamplona (100%, 1 Year, -1 Treasury, +.1 Income, unlikely +Prestige, loans expire on their own after 100 years)
-[X] Personal: Relax with Family (-Stress)
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First of all, it's not at all correct to equate the purchase of explosives and shovels with accepting a loan from us. The former is buying a crapload of what they want with the massive amounts of wealth they have on hand, while the other is an act of desperation. A millionaire buying a fleet of yachts with the stacks they have and someone taking a loan to buy a fleet of yachts is not the same thing, prestige-wise.

Secondly, borrowing money from other countries does really hurt our prestige gains. See here:
Aranfan said:
[] Seek Loan: You are strapped for cash. Other states have money that you could use. Ask them if they would be willing to float a loan. (85%, +1 Treasury Status, -.1 Income, -1 Prestige)
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Damaging our Prestige is precisely the reason we sought out so many loans, as we wanted to stay below KMT to avoid triggering a possible war with them.

EDIT: We already made Khemetri look desperate for cash when they gouged for food while we gave it away. Let's not further imply they're desperate for cash by offering them a loan.
 
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Fouredged Sword said:
Not to my knowledge. The gasification process leaves behind the solid carbon that makes up charcoal as the volatiles gas off. It's essentially the same process as getting coke and coalgas out of charcoal. You just have a higher tar and water content and some downstream processes don't like that, but if you run your oven hot and long enough you turn the tars into gas as well and this makes the whole system cleaner.

Here is a paper describing the application in far far too much detail than this discussion requires, I just found it hilarious that this exists.

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Are Ymaryn alchemists capable of doing this?
 
Damn, that's fairly convincing that Khem taking a loan would reduce their Prestige.

@Aranfan: are loan offers made in private? If public, it's rather a nonstarter, since it could be easily taken as us implying that the Khem need a loan.

(Ideally, we would privately offer them a secret loan, so that no one finds out and their Prestige isn't lowered. No money actually needs to change hands, if the Khem are just interested in buying our tools: we record that they took the loan and use it to purchase tools, we pay the guilds ourself and deliver the tools, they pay the usual interest.)
 
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Andres110 said:
We don't want to repay loans right now. Has a chance of Prestige gain and we want to avoid that until Khemetri finishes their canal.
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That's an additional reason for it to be second-choice to Plan Support Provinces.

However, it's an Unlikely gain to begin with and we've already opened up the Prestige differential by letting Rusland go. Even before we did that, the Khem showed their main interest is in canal building rather than conflict with us. All-in-all, a tolerable risk.

With your argument in mind, I strongly prefer even a certain Prestige gain--whereas this one is Unlikely--to risking a loan offer with Khemetri, at least until the loan narrative is clarified, so am continuing to approval vote it.

If you have preferred alternatives (within reason), I'll also be happy to approval vote them.
 
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Fouredged Sword said:
Not yet. Woodgas isn't a technology yet.

But it's totally a thing that people do.
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Not what I meant.

What I meant is if Ymaryn alchemists have the knowledge and capability to investigate and invent the tech, or if it's too large of an interference gap.

Andres110 said:
We don't want to repay loans right now. Has a chance of Prestige gain and we want to avoid that until Khemetri finishes their canal.
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1 prestige isn't going to piss off the Khem.
 
Kiba said:
Not what I meant.

What I meant is if Ymaryn alchemists have the knowledge and capability to investigate and invent the tech, or if it's too large of an interference gap.



1 prestige isn't going to piss off the Khem.
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As I said, not yet. We have not unlocked the tech system yet.

But we have all the technological pieces to develop early gas technologies. We have all the elements that led to the introduction of coal gas, but with wood. Coal gas was invented when people realized the fumes from their coke kilns could be burned to heat their coke kilns. Coke is basically charcoal made from coal rather than wood.


Themarineguy said:
That assumes it won't affect the prestige gain of the canal it would likely finance...
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Personally I think even if they reject it, it sends a strong signal to them that we do not intend to confront them directly on this issue. Us making a loan means we are placing ourselves at a disadvantage if we attack them. At worst it signals that we consider them a rival, but want to limit our confrontation to economic oneupmanship.
 
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Oshha said:
That is a good idea that is worth trying.

[] Plan Oshha
-[] Authority: Support Province: Give one of the provinces considerable sums of money to assist in their current infrastructural projects. (85%, 1 Year, Expensive, +Province Loyalty)
--[] Hathytta
-[] Influence: Offer Loan: The Melkut Ymaryn is rich beyond measure, but other polities need money too. You could offer to lend them cash when they need it. (Narrative%, 1 year, -1 Treasury, unlikely +Opinion)
--[] Khemetri
-[] Personal: Relax with Family (-Stress)#
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I am worried about the peacocks hitting the roof over us not only not stopping the canal, but also helping to build it.

@Aranfan does Brynn have any comments on this? Will it cause an internal rumpus?
 
Fouredged Sword said:
Ohhh... We also have a diplomatic corp now. I would like to suggest a new action

Establish Embassy - Now that Ymar has administrators who's job it is to deal with foreign countries it has become an option to establish a permanent presence in other country's capitals. It would be expensive to provide for what basically amounts to an estate in another country, but not so much that Ymar cannot afford to flex it's financial muscle and show the world how rich we are. (Expensive, +25% chance to diplomatic and intrigue actions with the targeted polity. Greater chance the polity will come to Ymar with requests and deals, possible +opinion)
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There should also be a chance of -influence in case of war with that country in the future.

Executing our diplomats might give strength to our faction that does not want us to send out diplomats.
 
HanChenYou said:
There should also be a chance of -influence in case of war with that country in the future.

Executing our diplomats might give strength to our faction that does not want us to send out diplomats.
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Possibly, but I would think that sort of thing is a long enough delay to not be part of the action itself. It could also be very narrative dependent based on the King's next actions and what the current factions are. A king who responds with war may have the backing of more people due to outrage for example.

One of the consequences of extending our reach is risking our fingers though. We can't avoid that.
 
HanChenYou said:
I am worried about the peacocks hitting the roof over us not only not stopping the canal, but also helping to build it.

@Aranfan does Brynn have any comments on this? Will it cause an internal rumpus?
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Oh yes. Maybe even enough to cause the peacocks to disintegrate as a faction if they lose the "rumpus".

Edit: Balthazar does not need Brynn to figure this out btw.
 
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So, what I'm reading from this is outright revolt by the Peacock faction--or the most militant parts of it--followed by them being too toxic to associate with, and/or being too brutally suppressed and deciding to submit. (Since most of the ruling class is Peacock, I don't see any other way that they simply stop.) The latter outcome, of course, is bad for our internal stability in the long-term.

And this is assuming that the Peacocks don't just outright win the conflict. They are the majority of the ruling class.

I prefer to let uncaring resignation slowly destabilize and defeat them: it keeps our schedule intact. We have so many megaprojects on our todo list that avoiding the Peacocks for 18 years isn't all that big a deal (and there's only 1.8 expected Influence loss during those years).

...
...

Update: "rebellion" confirmed "very unlikely", so original first paragraph ruled out.

For the second paragraph, there does still seem to be a conflict the Peacocks can win or "lose", but the exact nature is unclear.

(I'm interpreting "rebellion" as any form of attempted takeover. There are still disadvantages to doing it now, if the result is worse than the usual -1 Influence, but the worst-case scenario is ruled out.)
 
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[X] Plan Oshha

We gave up sum prestige when we let the released territories go. Khem has the margin to take a loan if they want one.
 
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