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Ymaryn Successor Quest (Paths of Civ AU)

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Fireiy said:
Well... at least we got +1 opinion with Pulska? Better than it being a complete waste again. I'd like to see us forgiving Amber Road's loan and sending our two Banners to help them for free, possibly with the addition of deepening our alliance. Does sending just the Banners count towards fulfilling the agreements of a defensive alliance?
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You know what I want to do? Open contact with these Gulryv. This is a pair of minors who are having a spat. I bet if we can just sit down and talk to both sides we can work something out. We are sorta bigger than both sides of the conflict combined.

Or, you know, threaten to send our banner companies to sort things out in favor of the side we like.
 
I am not really keen on another banner company:

1) They generally don't make us money most of the time.
2) They sapped away income when not being used to make money. 2 banner companies cost us 1 income. Math reform gives us 1 income.
3) Money spent on banner company formation can be used to make more boats or whatever.
4) We already have two banner companies that's sitting around doing nothing. We don't need an additional company.
 
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I'm pretty sure that the mask magic of our early warriors and the Blackbirds was supernatural too though we never got confirmation of that one.

We had hoodoo
We had voodoo
We had things we ain't even tried!
So our friends on the other side got bored and wandered off.
 
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You know, what I really want to do with Dafydd right now is to set up the Dafydd Military Academy and stick him in a nice cushy position as an extremely well paid instructor of the next generation of our military generals.

Let him end his campaigning days and get to live out the rest of his years in comfort and luxury while passing on as much of his knowledge as he can into an institutional framework that will preserve it and iterate on it as generations pass.
 
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Kiba said:
I am not really keen on another banner company:

1) They generally don't make us money most of the time.
2) They sapped away income when not being used to make money. 2 banner companies cost us 1 income. Math reform gives us 1 income.
3) Money spent on banner company formation can be used to make more boats or whatever.
4) We already have two banner companies that's sitting around doing nothing. We don't need an additional company.
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5) Why do we want to please the revanchists again? :V

Fouredged Sword said:
You know, what I really want to do with Dafydd right now is to set up the Dafydd Military Academy and stick him in a nice cushy position as an extremely well paid instructor of the next generation of our military generals.

Let him end his campaigning days and get to live out the rest of his years in comfort and luxury while passing on as much of his knowledge as he can into an institutional framework that will preserve it and iterate on it as generations pass.
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Also write a few books maybe?
 
One thing I want to do at some point is use Authority to make Build Ties succeed. Aranfan said its low success chance is partly because it's a hard action but partly because we're not good at it. I think pushing it through with Authority would be a good way to build up our skill on that front. Diplomacy is very important for our long term health.
 
Nyvis said:
5) Why do we want to please the revanchists again? :V
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I am somewhat worried that when the peacocks dissolve as a political group they will be replaced with straight up elitists. It will no longer be about war. It will be about Ymar spreading it's economic, cultural, and influence sphere as far as it can and maximizing our prestige as much as possible. No long term thinking. No generosity towards others or building relationships other than "Ymar is dominant, everyone else obey."

The Peacocks are at least straightforward to appease from time to time with military spending we may be wanting to do anyway. We may find ourselves in situations where war makes sense even.

But we are ALWAYS going to have shitty factions and we need to deal with them. Getting rid of the peacocks won't get rid of the existence of shitty factions.
 
Fouredged Sword said:
I am somewhat worried that when the peacocks dissolve as a political group they will be replaced with straight up elitists. It will no longer be about war. It will be about Ymar spreading it's economic, cultural, and influence sphere as far as it can and maximizing our prestige as much as possible. No long term thinking. No generosity towards others or building relationships other than "Ymar is dominant, everyone else obey."

The Peacocks are at least straightforward to appease from time to time with military spending we may be wanting to do anyway. We may find ourselves in situations where war makes sense even.

But we are ALWAYS going to have shitty factions and we need to deal with them. Getting rid of the peacocks won't get rid of the existence of shitty factions.
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The problem I have with that argument is that the Peacocks already ARE all about Ymaryn superiority and prestige now that reunification has been completed. And arguably getting rid of the Peacocks is a first step towards reducing the influence of shitty factions in general.
 
Fouredged Sword said:
I am somewhat worried that when the peacocks dissolve as a political group they will be replaced with straight up elitists. It will no longer be about war. It will be about Ymar spreading it's economic, cultural, and influence sphere as far as it can and maximizing our prestige as much as possible. No long term thinking. No generosity towards others or building relationships other than "Ymar is dominant, everyone else obey."

The Peacocks are at least straightforward to appease from time to time with military spending we may be wanting to do anyway. We may find ourselves in situations where war makes sense even.

But we are ALWAYS going to have shitty factions and we need to deal with them. Getting rid of the peacocks won't get rid of the existence of shitty factions.
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Yes, but we can get rid of the shitty faction that is an embodiment of many of Ymar's worst attributes at the moment, and push back at those problems while doing so. Continually weakening and pushing back shitty factions is how we weaken their ideas and views, and stop them from dominating culturally.
 
Fouredged Sword said:
I am somewhat worried that when the peacocks dissolve as a political group they will be replaced with straight up elitists. It will no longer be about war. It will be about Ymar spreading it's economic, cultural, and influence sphere as far as it can and maximizing our prestige as much as possible. No long term thinking. No generosity towards others or building relationships other than "Ymar is dominant, everyone else obey."

The Peacocks are at least straightforward to appease from time to time with military spending we may be wanting to do anyway. We may find ourselves in situations where war makes sense even.

But we are ALWAYS going to have shitty factions and we need to deal with them. Getting rid of the peacocks won't get rid of the existence of shitty factions.
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I intensely dislike what you're doing here. No, we do not need to preserve and feed the proto-fascists. Do not make up some hypothetical boogeyman monster that the proto-fascists are secretly protecting us from to justify their existence. I have difficulty expressing how much I think what you're doing is wrong on not only a factual level but a moral one, given how people IRL have justified really bad political positions by claiming it protects against even worse political positions. Dissolving the Peacocks won't solve literally every problem, but we cannot make things better if we intentionally preserve the worst parts of the Ymaryn.
 
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Fouredged Sword said:
I am somewhat worried that when the peacocks dissolve as a political group they will be replaced with straight up elitists. It will no longer be about war. It will be about Ymar spreading it's economic, cultural, and influence sphere as far as it can and maximizing our prestige as much as possible. No long term thinking. No generosity towards others or building relationships other than "Ymar is dominant, everyone else obey."

The Peacocks are at least straightforward to appease from time to time with military spending we may be wanting to do anyway. We may find ourselves in situations where war makes sense even.

But we are ALWAYS going to have shitty factions and we need to deal with them. Getting rid of the peacocks won't get rid of the existence of shitty factions.
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Try for a second to apply this logic to politics you disagree with in real life.

See the issue? Just giving the people we think are harmful things to make them away will simply strengthen them by proving they can succeed to their base, which will in turn enable them to get worse.
 
This is new right?
"""
The King's Lake: You have full control over the entire shoreline of the Yllython Mor. (+1 Income)
"""
 
We'll still have Peacocks even after we lose revanchism. People like military glory, expansion and using the strength they know we have. Even commoners like those things when they don't involve mass drafts and strained economies. Winning feels good, coming through shared struggle builds social cohesion and pride - unpopular governments look for short, victorious wars for a reason.
 
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The Western Wall Question
  • Threadmarks
    • What to do about Western Wall?

    The question of who to administer it is easy enough. Thirty years on from the Collapse and there are now enough spare nobles to staff their bureaucracy, especially with noblewomen filling out the numbers. No, the hard question was what about the Rus and the settlers in the Rus territory Western Wall conquered.

    Tensions between the settlers and the natives where high. To make things worse, Western Wall seems to view the conquered territory as now an integral part of itself. It'll only take a generation or two for the new noble families of Western Wall to start playing on those feelings to shore up domestic support, however loyal the ones you'll be installing are.

    Whatever decisions you make here will set the tone for how you interact with the Rus for… possibly the rest of time.

    You pray to Mathulmyn that you choose wisely.


    What do you do with the Rus Territories?

    [] Cut them loose. (+.5 Income from integration, -5 Prestige, Western Wall angry in future, Rus pleased)
    [] Integrate them as Rus Province with their own governor (+2 Income from integration, Western Wall ??? in future, Rus ???)
    [] Integrate them into Western Wall (+2 Income from integration, Western Wall pleased, Rus angry.)


    What do you do with the Western Wall settlers?

    [] Relocate them to still empty farms in Stallion Province. (Rus pleased, former settlers angry, -1 Influence)
    [] Leave them in place, they have farmed that land. (Settlers pleased, Rus angry, +1 Influence)


    Two Hour Moratorium
     
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  • Threadmarks
    • [] Integrate them as Rus Province with their own governor (+2 Income from integration, Western Wall ??? in future, Rus ???)
    [] Relocate them to still empty farms in Stallion Province. (Rus pleased, former settlers angry, -1 Influence)
     
    [] Relocate them to still empty farms in Stallion Province. (Rus pleased, former settlers angry, -1 Influence)

    Definitely this

    [] Integrate them as Rus Province with their own governor (+2 Income from integration, Western Wall ??? in future, Rus ???)

    People who have a better idea about this sort of thing, what would this look like to the Rus, and how would it affect the Ymaryn attitude to conquest and territory?
     
    I'm worried Rus province legitimizes their conquests. Having friends on our borders, option 1, might not be a bad thing.
     
    noliar said:
    We'll still have Peacocks even after we lose revanchism. People like military glory, expansion and using the strength they know we have. Even commoners like those things when they don't involve mass drafts and strained economies. Winning feels good, coming through shared struggle builds social cohesion and pride - unpopular governments look for short, victorious wars for a reason.
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    Sure, but do we want those people validated and thus strengthened, even if they'll keep hanging around in some form?

    Also worth bearing in mind that our method of war is quite taxing on the population, especially when we start fighting other powers. It's something our people will easily get the necessity of defensively but will balk at offensively.

    We could keep building up our banners companies and keep them in conflicts all the time to make them pay for themselves, but that's a recipe for disastrous diplomacy.

    ---

    Okay, now that the update is in... I think there's multiple acceptable strategies.

    We can nip this in the bud, give the Rus their land back and resettle the settlers on our own. Western Wall will hate us for a while but without the settlers agitating from their colonies it'll fade over time. And the Rus will see us positively so we can pull them into our alliance network along with Amber Road.

    Or we can try to integrate the Rus as their own province with its own nobles and governor... But then what to do with the settlers? If we leave them there they'll keep agitating to reintegrate with Western Wall and against the Rus. If we're going to resettle them anyway we may as well give the Rus independence and ensure friendship that way.

    ExNihilo said:
    I'm worried Rus province legitimizes their conquests. Having friends on our borders, option 1, might not be a bad thing.
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    To be fair, getting the new province taken away from them and their settlers removed back to your land while a pro-Rus governor is installed isn't a great encouragement for autonomous conquest since we're removing all the benefits.

    I'm more worried about it legitimizing conquests in the core than in the periphery (which would be a worry if we let them have it/settle it.

    I'm tentatively on independence + repatriation of settlers.

    I'm not too mad if we settle on separate province + repatriation, but I'm worried about the legitimation of expansionism.

    Settler colonialism has to go of course.
     
    ScreenWatcher said:
    [] Integrate them as Rus Province with their own governor (+2 Income from integration, Western Wall ??? in future, Rus ???)
    [] Relocate them to still empty farms in Stallion Province. (Rus pleased, former settlers angry, -1 Influence)
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    I tend to agree with this.
    Cutting them loose will probably lead to WW escalating in the future anyway.
    Integrating them into WW leads to rewarding their expansionist behavior and other troubles in the future. As does leaving WW settlers there.

    Giving them their own province while giving maximal autonomy should give them our protection, against WW as well, while leaving them independent enough to beco integrated in a generation or two.
     
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    Why wouldn't we want to expand tho. It is the best way to get more power population and money. It's literally how every empire has become great.
     
    On a related note, this is probably going to be a mostly not!Christian province and bordering Poland, right? I wonder if that would cause any problems.
     
    I'm definitely voting for the relocation, although it is probably a death sentence for many of the relocated people (mass relocations don't have a great track record).

    I really, really want to integrate the Rus population as their own province. From a mechanics and geographic standpoint, integrating them makes us much stronger.

    I am afraid that cutting them loose will simultaneously generate a new rival (especially with WW agitators constantly raiding over the border to "reclaim" "their" land due to PSN) and eventually cause a rebellion from WW during our next great power war.

    On the other hand, cutting them loose is the right thing to do.
     
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