@Fouredged Sword, @Oshha, everyone in general:

The game plan for conceding to Khem is as follows:
  1. Take the disadvantageous trade deal to increase their opinion (and make their wealthy want war less), so that they give us better terms.

    (There's also the chance this opens up Sacred Warding; starting this and the Cholera cure will give us even better terms. Starpox can strike at anyone, from the lowliest slave to the highest official. We can convince them that, too bad a deal, and we wouldn't have the political will to continue Sacred Warding even if we wanted to.)
  2. Max out our Influence dice. Most or all of them are going to be taken away, and we need to make sure we have enough. Relatedly...
  3. No more dice on long-term projects (per Brynn's advice; more details in future post), whether Influence dice or Authority dice. This is so that the essential long-term projects (Sacred Warding Amber Road, Train Administrators) are not abruptly cancelled.
  4. [Medium confidence] If a project is necessary, strongly prefer not using an Authority dice on it.

There are significant advantages in conceding to Khem:
  1. Weakens Revaunchists
  2. Weakens OVERWHELMING ARROGANCE
  3. Minimal or no income loss

Disadvantages (aside from the obvious loss of whatever they demand):
  1. We don't know if Revaunchists will roll to demand prestige post-unification. (But we'll have weakened them net 5-6 times, so that helps.)
  2. Eventually we will catch up to Khem again. We need to build our navy so that, that time, we can stand up to them. This will cost Treasury/actions.

That is your game plan not mine.

My plan is to play things safe by trying to peace out of the Black Sheep as soon as possible and trying to keep Authority and Influence uncommitted. I don't know what the Khem's ultimatum is going to entail so I'm not working on the assumption that it will be preferable to going to war. We also have to be wary of what the Mass Levy is doing to our economy as it has been described as "setting our nation on fire".

My plan is make peace with the Black Sheep as soon as possible to free up Dafydd and the majority of our troops whilst also keeping our Treasury reasonable full and our available dice as high as we can. I also want to try and open up diplomatic relations with the Highlanders so we can attempt to peace them out to secure another front and free up some more of our troops. We might lose an Influence doing that, but we are getting plenty from doing well in the war(s).

I am also doubtful about your assumption that conceding to the Khem won't cost us much in the way of Income. Previous peace deals have resulted in increased income for the winner at the expense of the loser and I don't see why the Khem ultimatum will be different to that.
 
@Oshha I think you've misread. This is a game-plan for optimally conceding to the Khem, assuming we choose to. I'm not saying we choose to.

However, regardless, as many of its attributes should be adopted in any plan as possible, just in case we do concede. That way, our concession, if it is made, is near-optimal.

In taking the non-committal game-plan, you're not optimizing for either possibility, and that could be very dangerous. For example, you want to:
  1. Peace out the Black Sheep ASAP (probably causing Khem to come for us, either draining Influence dice in peace, or income in war)
  2. Open up diplomatic relations with the Highlanders (Possible -Influence, probably more once we make the actual deal).
  3. Not take out too many loans (makes it more likely for Khem to come for us, low Treasury buffer in case of war or concession)
  4. No mention of unfavorable trade deals, whether to the Khem to improve their ultimatum, or to other nations to reduce our prestige (no Khem delay, no reduced ultimatum effects)

In case of conceding to Khemetri, having less Influence from the Highlanders can cause projects to be cancelled. In case of not conceding, having low Treasury is a disadvantage. You also don't mention a way to keep us from catching the Khem in prestige the first place, or to maintain that high Treasury.

(To be fair, you're following Rhys' advice, which is at least the most important part of the low-pain concession analysis. But, otherwise, essentially acting with disregard to the Khem.)

...

For me, since Aranfan has revealed we can't take out too many loans, this makes quick concession all the more palatable, because we can't reduce our prestige enough (to prevent Khem from coming), or stockpile enough Treasury (in case of war). Thus, my analysis of how to concede with less pain.

We should see what an optimal Concession plan looks like and what an optimal War plan looks like and--at minimum--take the commonalities between them, while preferring one (probably concession, at the moment, given our limited ability to take loans).
 
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It will take a very very painful demand on the part of the Khem for me to not just instantly accept it. This is our big moment of transition, and the longer it takes to deactivate the mass levi, the worse the effects will be. Preventing the Khem from war decking us is vital. It would nearly need to be "take the deal and die" levels of bad for me to say no, especially if we get the demand after the TP is brought back into the fold at least nominally and the explosion timer is disabled.
 
  1. Not take out too many loans (makes it more likely for Khem to come for us, low Treasury buffer in case of war or concession)
stockpile enough Treasury (in case of war). Thus, my analysis of how to concede with less pain.
Our Treasury is over halfway full. There is more than enough for this potential war with the Khem. Worst comes to the worse, we take out another loan or two or accept some opinion hits in exchange for selling some guns.
Treasury Status: 5.5/10
We don't need ridiculous high amounts of money to take on the Khem. Don't forget that our Treasury is current fuller than it has been for the majority of the quest and we have gotten on fine before.

In taking the middle-road option, you're not optimizing for either possibility, and that could be very dangerous. For example, you want to:
  1. Peace out the Black Sheep ASAP (probably causing Khem to come for us, either draining Influence dice in peace, or income in war)
  2. Open up diplomatic relations with the Highlanders (Possible -Influence, probably more once we make the actual deal).
  3. Not take out too many loans (makes it more likely for Khem to come for us, low Treasury buffer in case of war or concession)
  4. No mention of unfavorable trade deals, whether to the Khem to improve their ultimatum, or to other nations to reduce our prestige (no Khem delay, no reduced ultimatum effects)
Optimising for one possibility is far more dangerous because it forces to take a certain option before we even know what the choice is and frankly, I disagree with the idea that not min-maxing is dangerous. Perfect is the enemy of good and you seem to have mistaken not being the most optimal for being insufficient. I would consider your desire to min-max to be far more dangerous because your specialist plan is vulnerable to outside factors, uncontrollable variables and making the choice for us before we even know what the choices are. My jack of all trades approaches leaves us in a good enough position that we can afford to choose between the two options when we actually know what they are. We don't need to optimise when we can just ensure that we are in a good enough position to be ready for both possibilities.

You also seem to have fallen into the mindset that the delaying the Khem ultimatum is desirable on its own merits, which I consider a mistake. We want to delay the Khem ultimatum long enough to get ready for it and right now, we are ready apart from the fact that our Martial Hero and the majority of our forces are tied up in the Thunder Plateau front against the Black Sheep.

We don't need to delay the Khem ultimatum indefinitely. We got our Influence currently capped out and only two of our ten dice committed to multi-turn actions. Our treasury is over halfway full which is enough and if we do end up needing more, we got some options to make more money. We also need to deal with this current war and the Khem sooner rather than the latter before the strain of the Mass Levy becomes too much. Making peace with another opponent means that we don't need to worry about the Khem opening up enough fronts to give us a malus. We don't need to keep Prestige down enough to avoid the Khem ultimatum, we just need to keep Prestige down enough that the Khem don't threaten war until we have won against the Black Sheep.

If a peace deal with the Black Sheep next turn pushes us over the edge and makes the Khem threaten war, then that is acceptable because we will be ready for it regardless of whether we concede or go to war. We just need to delay the Khem until we are ready for their ultimatum.
 
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My ideas for war are sadly limited, without the ability to delay the confrontation (while raising Treasury buffer) through loan-taking.

Ideally, we want to bring Vynta (already at 6 opinion) into the war. We can give them a favorable trade deal to raise that to 7 opinion, while delaying by 1 Prestige. Sadly, other countries are not worrying about Ymaryn's default risk, so there's probably no economic incentive for loaners to intervene in our war (although we could try in case it becomes more apparent a few years later).

Rough estimates:

I think we need 3 loans (the max that is reasonable under Brynn's new restriction) to bring our Treasury from 5.5 to 8.5 as a baseline. Our income will turn into either -1.7 [= +0.6 - 0.3 [three loans] - 2 [Thunder Plateau]] if we don't take Western Wall, or (estimated) -0.7 if we do [not counting any trade deals]

Projected Treasury (assuming no loss of income, and that we take Western Wall before 1620 income):
1618: 8.5
1619: 7.5
1620: 6.7
1621: 5.7
1622: 5.7
1623: 4.7
1624: 4.7
1625: 3
1626: 3
1627: 2
1628: 2
1629: 1
1630: 1
1631: -0.7

[If we don't take Western Wall before 1620, subtract 1 from most of these; we become insolvent in 1629]

In reality, there will probably be loss of income from a partial blockade, with unknown effects. To put a number on it, I would not count on the Treasury lasting longer than 1625-1628 (but this is a random guess), and 1 year less if we fail to take Western Wall's 1620 income.

The only things we can do are selling more guns (not too many, and maybe not by sea). I'm not sure we can dictate favorable trade deals (to us) under the circumstances... or that the unfavorable trade deals would be really enough.

Without the Influence loss from the Khem, we can afford to peace out the Highlanders, to at least remove one front (the Highlanders may or may not give up even without this).

Any additional thoughts/ideas are welcome.

...

Edit: timeline-wise, with 3 loans (63 prestige base), it's safe-ish to delay the Black Sheep peace deal for no more than 1 year, 2 if necessary. There are also people suggesting to peace out immediately, which is also okay, and gives up this buffer.

There is a low to mid-low chance the 6 buffer to 69 Prestige buffer will be enough to prevent us from overtaking Khem immediately, in which case more options (unfavorable trade deals) may be available. But not very likely.
 
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Any additional thoughts/ideas are welcome.
I really think you are overestimating how much money we need to take on the Khem or how long a war with them will last. Without us taking any actions and the Mass Levy being active, we'll lost -1 Treasury every other year and depending on how much of it we lose, we will either gain or lose some money every five years. Assuming we get the Black Sheep out before the Khem join in, we currently got enough money for continuing this war. If it does drag out enough that we require more money, then we can try taking out another loan or two or accept some potential opinion loss by selling some guns.
 
Optimising for one possibility is far more dangerous because it forces to take a certain option before we even know what the choice
If you read the capitulation plan, it should be clear this is not really true. We can take an unfavorable trade deal with Khemetri and it would have little consequence (especially in war, where the trade deal would be suspended to our benefit). The other big suggestion is to avoid losing influence with the Highlanders (we can do that next turn, if war is declared) and to avoid committing long-term Influence and especially Authority dice (which you've already been doing).

The big problem with your jack-of-all-trades approach is that it seems to pretend the Khem don't exist until they actually come. We make peace with the Black Sheep immediately (Khem are coming), we negotiate with Highlanders (inopportune time to lose Influence, when they're coming), and we don't try to improve their ultimatum with a trade deal, even though we know said ultimatum is coming.

Without any optimization at all to the ultimatum, you've essentially left us with either 1) a bad ultimatum or 2) war.

You also seem to have fallen into the mindset that the delaying the Khem ultimatum is desirable on its own merits, which I consider a mistake.
This may have been my previous thinking, but since the revelation of limited loans, my plans have been adjusted to remove this assumption.

More specifically, they have assumed that we can delay for at most one turn, and that not delaying at all may be desirable (we can, for example, take out all three remaining loans next year, take out an unfavorable trade deal to boost Khem's opinion, and make peace with the Black Sheep, making Khem's reaction the next year).

[see Edit 2 below; forgot about that]

Our Treasury is over halfway full. There is more than enough for this potential war with the Khem. Worst comes to the worse, we take out another loan or two or accept some opinion hits in exchange for selling some guns.

We don't need ridiculous high amounts of money to take on the Khem. Don't forget that our Treasury is current fuller than it has been for the majority of the quest and we have gotten on fine before.
We may not have the option to take out more loans, depending on the nature of the embargo. This is why I would want to take out all 3 remaining loans the next year.

We've also not taken on this much negative income before--and what income we have is not guaranteed upon embargo. The only answer to this is to project our Treasury into the future, which I have done above. A reasonable guess is insolvency in 1624-1628, depending on precise circumstances.

We can sell some guns to make it up, but the nature of the Mass Levy prevents us selling too many. Favorable trade deals (assuming the embargo isn't affecting them) would give us only 0.1-0.2 Treasury each for the likely duration of this war.

...

Edit: as we both know, duration is the biggest restriction to whether we can survive this. If the Khemetri play it smart and wait for us to run out of money, we can't. *shrug* To our advantage, the nature of national prestige lowers the chance of this.

Edit 2: One reason not to make peace next year is to see if the unfavorable trade agreement gives us access to Sacred Warding, Khemetri, a significant boost for ultimatum negotiations.
 
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I don't think embargo are going to affect us too much. We will use bombards to force Khem ships at a distance.
 
One thing I just realized about the Highlanders: a Black Sheep peace agreement would probably net us a lot of Influence, which would cancel the Influence loss. This is another reason to delay the peace agreement to next year, so that it can make up for both Influence dice loss (-1 from initial Highlander contact, -1 from Highlander peace). But, it means that contacting the Highlanders could be net neutral... depending on how the actions are timed and all.
 
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I also want to point out that money is only a concern with the Mass Levy. If demobilise it, then the Khem can't win by blockading us and even with it, I'm not sure they could win by blockading us.
 
We need to not play games. We can't count on all the dominoes falling into place like clockwork. We are gonna fail rolls. Maybe it's the BS peace deal. Maybe we roll badly elsewhere.

It doesn't matter. We need to start simplifying now so we don't get caught with too many plates in the air. Delaying one year could easily turn into 2-3 years and we can't afford that.
 
We need to not play games. We can't count on all the dominoes falling into place like clockwork. We are gonna fail rolls. Maybe it's the BS peace deal. Maybe we roll badly elsewhere.

It doesn't matter. We need to start simplifying now so we don't get caught with too many plates in the air. Delaying one year could easily turn into 2-3 years and we can't afford that.
This. We are in a good position right now to peace out with the Black Sheep and face the Khem ultimatum and I feel that things are good enough that we have hit the point of diminishing returns by delaying with delays being more likely to result in things going wrong than our position improving.
 
One thing I just realized about the Highlanders: a Black Sheep peace agreement would probably net us a lot of Influence, which would cancel the Influence loss. This is another reason to delay the peace agreement to next year, so that it can make up for both Influence dice loss (-1 from initial Highlander contact, -1 from Highlander peace). But, it means that contacting the Highlanders could be net neutral... depending on how the actions are timed and all.
I don't see why we would want to wait. The highlanders are just an additional distraction.
 
I think it should be okay to try to let initial Highlander diplomacy be made up for by peace deal success. What we can't count on are the further "dominoes...like clockwork" from follow-up.

(That said, if you want to play it safe, simplify, and not do anything that risks Influence loss, also fine with me.)

The big reason to delay is to see if an Unfavorable Khem trade deal gives us access to Sacred Warding, a significant boon. But I'm neutral enough on that to not really mind missing the possibility.

...
...

Edit:
I also want to point out that money is only a concern with the Mass Levy. If demobilise it, then the Khem can't win by blockading us and even with it, I'm not sure they could win by blockading us.
If we demobilize, can we still hold off the Khem? Surely they're sending at least a few hundred thousand worth of troops, since Aranfan has hinted that army sizes haven't changed much since the Epic Age, and that puts 70-80k from a single Battle of Bloodvalley.
 
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I think it should be okay to try to let initial Highlander diplomacy be made up for by peace deal success. What we can't count on are the further "dominoes...like clockwork" from follow-up.

(That said, if you want to play it safe, simplify, and not do anything that risks Influence loss, also fine with me.)

The big reason to delay is to see if an Unfavorable Khem trade deal gives us access to Sacred Warding, a significant boon. But I'm neutral enough on that to not really mind missing the possibility.

...
...

Edit:

If we demobilize, can we still hold off the Khem? Surely they're sending at least a few hundred thousand worth of troops, since Aranfan has hinted that army sizes haven't changed much since the Epic Age, and that puts 70-80k from a single Battle of Bloodvalley.
Logistics works both ways. They need to ship everything in, and while that's at least posible for them with navel superiority, we have the funds to raise multiple levi even if the mass levi is stepped down, on top of our normal army and banner companies to face them. Waging that kind of war is beyond the logistics of this age and will likely remain so until the invention of the galleon.

Neither Ymar nor Khem can really do more than poke at one another and play navel dominance games.
 
If we demobilize, can we still hold off the Khem? Surely they're sending at least a few hundred thousand worth of troops, since Aranfan has hinted that army sizes haven't changed much since the Epic Age, and that puts 70-80k from a single Battle of Bloodvalley.
We can hold them off with our regular army, our Banner Companies and a City Levy or two. Just like the Khem, we can still throw about a few hundred thousand troops as proven by Western Wall being capable of doing it.

Edit: The difference between us and Khem is that we can take our army a step further by activating the Mass Levy while Khem has a superior navy to us. The Khem are a peer to us, not our superior.
 
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If we demobilize, can we still hold off the Khem? Surely they're sending at least a few hundred thousand worth of troops, since Aranfan has hinted that army sizes haven't changed much since the Epic Age, and that puts 70-80k from a single Battle of Bloodvalley.

Dealing with the Khem will certainly be harder without mass levy power, but on the other hand, a city levy would put us on par with them with our army and it is worth asking how much manpower we can shove through the Khem tributaries in order to hit their heartlands (assuming they have naval superiority). We might not be able to march that many troops to the Nile valley and while having plenty of men to garrison the coasts against raids from a more mobile enemy... Can our society really handle the strain of keeping the mass levy on for so long?

Keeping a million people raised in the army for 20 years, even if we could fund it, would have very serious impacts on Ymaryn society. Like Rome we could end up with a large amount of manpower that lacks the skill to do anything besides fighting and an entrenched elite made of the people who nommed all the farmland/urban property of the people who were off to war. That would not be good for political stability.

As far as the Tehryn rebels, I for one am fully in favour of their terms.

[X] Accept Terms (+5 Prestige, -1 influence, +2 influence, -.3 Income)

fasquardon
 
One issue is timing. It's unclear what the exact mechanics of "demobilize then raise city levy" are: would we be demobilizing back home then remobilizing back to the City Levy?

If possible, I would like an option that amounts to "Downgrade Mass Levy" (to X number of City Levies) that maybe has an instant cost of (X-1) Treasury. [Or maybe the cost would be more favorable, since all City Levy equivalents are already in place, not just one.]

@Aranfan: thoughts on this idea? Or is it misguided for some reason?

We can hold them off with our regular army, our Banner Companies and a City Levy or two.
a city levy would put us on par with them with our army

My guess is that Khem's army should match Western Wall (300k), but probably less than 500k.

Less than 300k does not make sense to throw 70-80k into a single Battle of Bloodvalley. More than 500k would make the Mass Levy only-a-bit-above-the-norm, whereas the other nations seem to be treating it as unique.

This would mean 3-5 City Levies are required to match Khem (100k / City Levy)

(But, my confusion has steadily increased with every day, so I am not too confident on these estimates.)
 
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My guess is that Khem's army should match Western Wall (300k), but probably less than 500k.

Less than 300k does not make sense to throw 70-80k into a single Battle of Bloodvalley. More than 500k would make the Mass Levy only-a-bit-above-the-norm, whereas the other nations seem to be treating it as unique.

This would mean 3-5 City Levies are required to match Khem (100k / City Levy)

(But, my confusion has steadily increased with every day, so I am not too confident on these estimates.)
The exact numbers don't matter. What does matter is that as a peer power, we can match what the Khem can field on land via regular means.

@Aranfan Does Brynn have an estimate on long we can keep the Mass Levy up for?
 
The exact numbers don't matter. What does matter is that as a peer power, we can match what the Khem can field on land via regular means.

@Aranfan Does Brynn have an estimate on long we can keep the Mass Levy up for?
I suspect we can keep it up until we run out of money. The problem is the longer it runs, the worse the effects will be when it turns off. I would not be shocked at something like double the mass levi duration malus or something.
 
Notably, the demob action explicitly includes retraining, so the crash will likely be less than what one night expect a million-man draft in "early gunpowder" age to be.

Which, to be clear, is utter collapse, but still.
 
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