Ymaryn Successor Quest (Paths of Civ AU)

[Kiba]

@Oshha The gist is:
Chinese society until roughly the late 19th century was primarily dominated by a class of confucian bureaucrats, who did everything in their power to keep their main competition, the army and the merchants, from gaining sociatal power. This led to them using their position to prevent the beginnings of a possible industial revolution that china was experiencing somethime during the early modern period (I don't remember what exactly when) due to fear that it would allow the merchants to gain more power in society. Ancient greece and rome had a similar problem with land- and slaveowning aristocracy being the dominant social force. It's one of the reasons why the ancient greeks managed to invent things like the computer and the steam engine and ended up doing nothing with it.

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Like I said, we aren't dominated by a bunch of confucian bureaucrats but a class of nobility that consists of the priesthood, clerks and administrators, and warriors. We just saw that when parliament was considering a number of different candidates. Our general was considered a viable candidate just as much as the Thunder swordcrafter guy.

Also, the computer and the steam engine doesn't matter. Why? Because it's a one-off invention. The greek never possessed the mindset to build upon their works, because it literally never occurred to them.

Our modern mindset of having merely the idea that we can invent stuff and improve upon them is a unique mindset in the history of humanity.

 

[noliar]

@Kiba @tenchifew After some Discord discussion, I have been convinced that we should try to do something to counter the spy network that Western Wall almost certainly has since they were able to kill our heir and almost killed our king. So I shuffle around some actions to focus on Intrigue against both of our enemies while I have decided that we've got enough money that the loan can wait until next turn so I've replaced that action with opening up diplomatic contact with our neighbour and rival Hellas.

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Do we have enough diplomatic contact with WW to do a standard spy network action (which requires it) on them? We don't have a nation specific action for them like we do with the BS. Also when did it become possible to spend multiple influence on an action (I'm sure it was forbidden at the start of the quest)?

Why bombard sales rather than the loan? Have you received a private assurance that we have enough guns for every army we have operating simultaneously?

 

[10ebbor10]

The urban patricians woldn't just suddenly disappear, so there would be at least some competition for societal power.

1) Alexandria at the time was part of the overall classical civilzation.
2) Mechanical computers are a thing.
3) Hero's toys weren't the only contempotary inventions using steam power

Yes, though it still layed the groundwork for the further development of european society.

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The cities would need to be broken for the nobility to have their rural aristocracy. Because feudalism can not be maintained when the King doesn't need to rely on his feudal members for support. Give the king an independent army, and he can just force the feudal lords under him in line, and feudalism dies as it did historically when organized armies showed up.

1) Ancient Greece is a period between 12th and the 9th century before Christ. Classical Greece is a period between the 5th and the 4th century before Christ. You're still way off in both time and place.
2) It's still just a fancy clock. There's no pathway for innovation.
3) And none of them could provide usefull mechanical power, or could be developped to a point where they could provide usefull mechanical power. They were technological dead ends, cheap tricks and toys to impress, but nothing more.

Europe during the period of feudalism was a cultural and technological backwater. I don't mean to overbalance towards the whole "Dark ages" nonsense, but Europe was no leading anything during feudalism. A highly agrarian society with limited labor specialization just doesn't innovate much.

 

[Kiba]

On stability and progress:

1. It is not a good idea to mistaken competition for progress. If competition consists of Game of Throne backstabbing, that particular society isn't really going to progress technologically.

2. Everytime we get into a stupid civil war, books and people are liable to die and infrastructure are going to get wrecked.

3. The Chinese experienced warring periods. I cannot help but think that maybe it slowed down their technological progress.

4. Some of our technological innovations and scientific discoveries come from wealthy aristocrats, like Antoine Lavoisier. Well, jeez, the French chopped off his head in the French revolution and Lavoisier died an untimely death!

5. We need stability to get things done, especially long term projects. Imagine that American society was in chaos in the 2000s. Do you really think spacex is going to launch their rocket when there's a civil war and unrest?

 

[Oshha]

Do we have enough diplomatic contact with WW to do a standard spy network action (which requires it) on them? We don't have a nation specific action for them like we do with the BS.

Also when did it become possible to spend multiple influence on an action (I'm sure it was forbidden at the start of the quest)?

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We sent a diplomatic contact to them last turn and diplomacy-wise, Western Wall counts as one of our Ymaryn provinces (if in rebellion). It isn't some foreign nation like the Pulska or Hellas that we currently don't have diplomatic relations with, it is a part of our own nation that is currently in revolt and as a result, we started off the quest with diplomatic relations with Western Wall like we did with all of the other breakaway Ymaryn provinces.

Provinces and Loyalty

Western Wall: In Rebellion

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With the Influence, it has always been possible. See the rules or the second turn of the quest for the earliest examples.

Influence. Each influence die is a 1d100 that will be rolled to see how well the action goes. Each action will have a percentage to indicate how likely it is to succeed. 1 influence on an action is 1d100, 2 influence is 2d100, etc.

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On a White Horse, On a Pale Green Horse:
Needed: 61+. Rolled: 50 + 12 = 62. Success.

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Why bombard sales rather than the loan? Have you received a private assurance that we have enough guns for every army we have operating simultaneously?

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I don't need assurance we have enough guns when issue of not having enough bombards is something you came up and has only been brought up by you. Unless you have evidence beyond you saying it is an possible issue, I am going to assume it isn't a concern due to nothing like that being mentioned in the update or by the QM in their posts. If we did have a shortage of bombards, our Martial Hero would have mentioned it or there would be some other indication in the update such as us being unable to sell bombards like we are currently unable to send war missions or raise city levies.

 

[Aabcehmu]

Of course, narratively speaking, a quest where the Ymaryn were the first to industrialize and have the first mover advantage that Britain had OTL would be pretty boring. It would basically be the Ymaryn doing whatever the hell they wanted, which would historically be farming and ironworking and ensuring sustainability and avoiding collapse, while the rest of the world scrambled to keep up. Which might be fun as a power fantasy, but it wouldn't be all that interesting as a quest. Not without a good enough writer to paper over the fundamental lack of conflict.

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I think that narrative conflict could be regained by reframing things to focus even more on the internal politics of the Ymaryn? While the Ymaryn nation as a whole would be the clear world leader and kind of unassailable, factions within the Ymaryn government and society would be less individually powerful and could have something to gain by interacting with other countries in order to gain an edge over one another. This would require abandoning the idea of the voters as being the overarching Spirit of the Ymaryn/the Melek, though.

Maybe something like 'You are the Shadow King of the Ymaryn, and the country is being pulled apart by internal forces that the Melek cannot or will not see. Can you keep the country from breaking apart or transforming into something abominable, without being dragged into the light yourself?'

 

[Oshha]

Do we have enough diplomatic contact with WW to do a standard spy network action (which requires it) on them? We don't have a nation specific action for them like we do with the BS.

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We sent a diplomatic contact to them last turn and diplomacy-wise, Western Wall counts as one of our Ymaryn provinces (if in rebellion). It isn't some foreign nation like the Pulska or Hellas that we currently don't have diplomatic relations with, it is a part of our own nation that is currently in revolt and as a result, we started off the quest with diplomatic relations with Western Wall like we did with all of the other breakaway Ymaryn provinces.

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To expand on this, on the very first turn, we could do diplomatic communication with all of the breakaway Ymaryn provinces as we started off with diplomatic contact with them while everyone else required us to take actions to not only discover that they existed, but to also open up diplomatic contact with them unless they came to us first.

Diplomatic Lord's Loyalty, Hathytta: Send proclamations and edicts endorsing and confirming all of the decisions made by the Governor of Hathytta for the duration of the crisis. You have no idea what those decisions actually are, but a show of even purely symbolic support may help them and make them more willing to rejoin the fold should you find your footing. (???%. 1 year. Possible +Hathytta Loyalty)

Honor of Elites, Western Wall: Demand the rebels surrender and swear fealty once again to their rightful lord! (70%. 1 year, +influence, Casus Belli if failed)

Honor of Elites, Greenshore: Demand the rebels surrender and swear fealty once again to their rightful lord! (70%. 1 year, +influence, Casus Belli if failed)

Honor of Elites, Tinshore: Demand the rebels surrender and swear fealty once again to their rightful lord! (70%. 1 year, +influence, Casus Belli if failed)

Rage Against The Steppes!: Demand the Black Sheep savages surrender and abandon their oppression of the people of the Thunder Plateau. (50%. 1 year. +Influence)

Who is at the gates exactly?: The Kingdom of The People is the weakest it has ever been, and you have almost no knowledge of what barbarian kingdoms surround you save the Highlanders. Are the Khem even still a power? (95%. 1 year. Overview of immediate neighbors. Possible -Influence)

Diplomatic Overview, Saffron Sea: You have no knowledge what barbarian powers are important in the realm of the Syffronites. In your current position of weakness that ignorance could be deadly. (95%, 1 year. Overview of Saffron and Saffron Sea powers. Possible -Influence.)

Diplomatic Overview, Monsoon Sea: You have no knowledge of what barbarian powers are important in the Monsoon Sea. In your current position of weakness that ignorance could be deadly. (95%, 1 year. Overview of Kus and Monsoon Sea powers. Possible -Influence.)

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[force200]

The Chinese experienced warring periods. I cannot help but think that maybe it slowed down their technological progress.

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Actually, China's technological slowdown happened under the Ming and Qing dynasties. All those warring periods happend much earlier.

 

[Aranfan]

Maybe something like 'You are the Shadow King of the Ymaryn, and the country is being pulled apart by internal forces that the Melek cannot or will not see. Can you keep the country from breaking apart or transforming into something abominable, without being dragged into the light yourself?'

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Spooks are not typically the ones who stop a country from going down a dark path.

 

[Aabcehmu]

Spooks are not typically the ones who stop a country from going down a dark path.

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The Ymaryn are a unique people. Or it could be some other internal faction, if that's too much of a stretch.

 

[Kiba]

Actually, China's technological slowdown happened under the Ming and Qing dynasties. All those warring periods happend much earlier.

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That doesn't prove that warring periods are crucible for technological advancement either. There's the old trope that periods like WW2 advance technologies(actually true, I guess). What people DON'T see is a shitton of people die, including intellectuals and inventors. Europe being set back and had to play second fiddle to the US and Russia.

Also there were literal rebellion in Qing dynasty in which million of people die. Not exactly a stable society either.

Then of course, the Brits had to add their own fire to the mix, selling opium and making the wrong kind of people rich.

 

[Pyro Hawk]

[X] Plan Oshha

Happy enough with this now that it's not seeking loans. That said, I do think that we're underestimating the potential rewards of Surveying Provinces gives. Admittedly, it is something where we'd want to invest two Influence per survey going by previous results. But considering a below average roll on two dice gave us a slight Income increase, and an above average roll meant that we've got massive coal reserves for whenever industrialisation hits? I think it's worth it.

Especially when we're trying to conserve our treasury as it both doesn't cost anything and gives the chance for Income increases. Which considering that I believe retaking the Thunder Plateau will give us -2 Income, Western Wall isn't likely to balance that out, and the Megaprojects we'd need to take to offset Thunder Plateau's Income penalty are all expensive is very good. Oh, and don't depend on selling Bombards to give us the Treasury needed for the Megaprojects. After all, each Megaproject takes a long time and there is a limited amount of bombards that we can successfully sell. Even if we're willing to destroy our reputation across Not!Europe or elsewhere.

 

[tenchifew]

[X] Plan Oshha

Happy enough with this now that it's not seeking loans. That said, I do think that we're underestimating the potential rewards of Surveying Provinces gives. Admittedly, it is something where we'd want to invest two Influence per survey going by previous results. But considering a below average roll on two dice gave us a slight Income increase, and an above average roll meant that we've got massive coal reserves for whenever industrialisation hits? I think it's worth it.

Especially when we're trying to conserve our treasury as it both doesn't cost anything and gives the chance for Income increases. Which considering that I believe retaking the Thunder Plateau will give us -2 Income, Western Wall isn't likely to balance that out, and the Megaprojects we'd need to take to offset Thunder Plateau's Income penalty are all expensive is very good. Oh, and don't depend on selling Bombards to give us the Treasury needed for the Megaprojects. After all, each Megaproject takes a long time and there is a limited amount of bombards that we can successfully sell. Even if we're willing to destroy our reputation across Not!Europe or elsewhere.

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I would very much like to go surveying - but as you already said, two influence seem like a far better idea than one for it and during the war turns does not seem like the right time.

 

[Kiba]

Especially when we're trying to conserve our treasury as it both doesn't cost anything and gives the chance for Income increases. Which considering that I believe retaking the Thunder Plateau will give us -2 Income, Western Wall isn't likely to balance that out, and the Megaprojects we'd need to take to offset Thunder Plateau's Income penalty are all expensive is very good. Oh, and don't depend on selling Bombards to give us the Treasury needed for the Megaprojects. After all, each Megaproject takes a long time and there is a limited amount of bombards that we can successfully sell. Even if we're willing to destroy our reputation across Not!Europe or elsewhere.

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If we're assuming we will be gaining control of WW, we will be gaining a breadbasket equal to Txolla.

 

[Fouredged Sword]

We are likely to hit a period of relative peace and internal focus after this war. We will habe a lot of work to do internally and income holes to patch, while at the same time have no real targets for ether offense or defenseive wars.

Surveys for resources, math reforms, and wagonways are the likely best ways to deal with things. The trick will be getting out of this war with enough income to actually do them despite the - 2 income from the Thunder Plateau.

 

[Pyro Hawk]

I would very much like to go surveying - but as you already said, two influence seem like a far better idea than one for it and during the war turns does not seem like the right time.

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Actually, during War Turns sounds like just a good a time as any other. Might even be better because it doesn't cost Treasury, gives us decent benefits and doesn't risk us getting pulled into other diplomatic matters when we're tied up with Western Wall and Thunder Plateau.

 

[Kiba]

We need to reduce prestige somehow. One of the best mechanism for that is loans and unfavorable trade agreements.

But mostly I preferred loans. since while they reduce our income, they raised our treasury level.

 

[LilyWitch]

[X] Plan Chimeraguard

 

[jamie96969]

[X] Plan Oshha

 

[KlinkerKing]

[X] Plan Oshha
-[X] Authority: Establish Spy Network: Establish a spy network in one of the places you have diplomatic contact with. (33%. 3 Years. Fails entirely if it fails once. Unlocks options. May be taken multiple times, but only with different targets.)
--[X] Western Wall
-[X] Influence & Influence: Create Sleeper Cells, Black Sheep: You have your hooks in the Black Sheep. Find people who are willing to join your cause when you go to liberate them. (???%. ? Years. ???)
-[X] Influence: Diplomatic Contact, Hellas: Who are the Hellas and what do they want? Besides Trelli. (???%. 1 Year.)
-[X] Influence: Sell Bombards, Kus Minors: Do any of the minor powers of Kus want bombards? (75%, 1 Year, Probable Profit)
-[X] Influence: Determine Internal Factions: Receive a dossier on the relevant internal factions of a polity you have diplomatic relations with. This will allow you to support or oppose their internal factions to be more favorable to your interests.
--[X] Black Sheep.
-[X] Personal: Relax with Family (-Stress)

 

[Fouredged Sword]

We need to reduce prestige somehow. One of the best mechanism for that is loans and unfavorable trade agreements.

But mostly I preferred loans. since while they reduce our income, they raised our treasury level.

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A loan every other turn would let us leave the war with basically our current treasury and -. 5 income, - 5 prestiege assuming the wars are done in 10 years.

I am worried about our income though. Eating a - 2 for absorbing the Thunder Plateau is going to be rough on top of whatever penalties we get from the levi en mass recovery period. The solutions to the Thunder Plateau problem takes 5 and 6+ treasury to finish respectively. I worry we crash our economy trying to administer all our lands post war if we don't steward our money carefully.

 

[Oshha]

I worry we crash our economy trying to administer all our lands post war if we don't steward our money carefully.

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Assuming that we don't have to pay back too many loans, we should be fine. Getting a -2 Income from Thunder Plateau is off-set by the Guild Industry and hopefully Western Wall should help off-set even further. Plus when the war is over, we can rent out our Banner Companies for money since they are mercenaries after all.

Basically, we shouldn't need to worry about crashing our economy so long as we take basic measures to prevent that.

 

[Fouredged Sword]

Assuming that we don't have to pay back too many loans, we should be fine. Getting a -2 Income from Thunder Plateau is off-set by the Guild Industry and hopefully Western Wall should help off-set even further. Plus when the war is over, we can rent out our Banner Companies for money since they are mercenaries after all.

Basically, we shouldn't need to worry about crashing our economy so long as we take basic measures to prevent that.

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Yeah, but I would love to have guild industry free to pay for both signal towers AND wagonways to Thunder Plateau so we can get rid of that - 2 income entirely.

Jumpstarting trains would be useful.

I want to be able to get within "spend actions to balance income" range so we sell bombards every other turn or so for a bit while we finish megaprojects that boost income.

 

[Kiba]

Don't forget that we have a smaller project: Wagonsway for Stonepen, for 0.1 income at the expense of -2 income. It also shaves off 15% off our timeline, which with 25 years is 22 years instead or 21 if @Aranfan decided to round up. According to my calculation, it will save us a treasury in the wagonway megaproject.

 

[Oshha]

expense of -2 income

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That would be -2 Treasury not -2 Income.