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Ymaryn Successor Quest (Paths of Civ AU)

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Chimeraguard said:
You know, in hindsight, we're really gonna regret any potential Prestige gain we get from extending the Sacred Warding to the Hung.


Actually, do we have diplomatic relations with the Black Sheep other than "Nomads on our land REEEEE!!!!"
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They replied to our ultimatum with a counter offer. We've spent several multi-year periods not fighting with them while having a really long border with them. Our ships sail past their coast etc. There must be contact even if it isn't terribly friendly.
 
Oshha said:
Given we can create sleeper cells in the Black Sheep, we should be able to figure out how their internal politics work and the QM hasn't said we can't do that action whilst we been discussing it.


I am not aware that there is a King of Kus.
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This is because I keep getting the names Khem and Kus mixed up in my head.

What should we get the new King of Khem for a coronation present?
 
[X] Plan Oshha
-[X] Authority: Establish Spy Network: Establish a spy network in one of the places you have diplomatic contact with. (33%. 3 Years. Fails entirely if it fails once. Unlocks options. May be taken multiple times, but only with different targets.)
--[X] Western Wall
-[X] Influence & Influence: Create Sleeper Cells, Black Sheep: You have your hooks in the Black Sheep. Find people who are willing to join your cause when you go to liberate them. (???%. ? Years. ???)
-[X] Influence: Diplomatic Contact, Hellas: Who are the Hellas and what do they want? Besides Trelli. (???%. 1 Year.)
-[X] Influence: Sell Bombards, Kus Minors: Do any of the minor powers of Kus want bombards? (75%, 1 Year, Probable Profit)
-[X] Influence: Determine Internal Factions: Receive a dossier on the relevant internal factions of a polity you have diplomatic relations with. This will allow you to support or oppose their internal factions to be more favorable to your interests.
--[X] Black Sheep.
-[X] Personal: Relax with Family (-Stress)

I want to infiltrate the Black Sheep with our agents and loyalists so that I want to stick an Authority on that action both to ensure it succeeds and that it succeeds in the shortest possible timeframe. Beyond that, I want to try and make diplomatic contact with Hellas and Pulska to fill out our diplo profiles further. I also want to try and seek a loan from Pamplona to get some Treasury and lower our prestige. I want to try selling some guns to the Kus Minors for the money so along with the loan, we got some spare money to do an Expensive action or two. Finally, I want to figure out the internal politics of the Black Sheep to try and make getting a peace deal easier while the personal action goes to reducing our king's stress.

Edit: After some Discord, I've been convinced that attempting to counter Western Wall's network (they almost certainly have one since they were almost able to assassinate our king and heir) before they can turn their spy success into battlefield success. So I put Authority on a spy network in Western Wall and then put the Influence used for our diplo actions on the Black Sheep Sleeper Cells. I've then decided that taking a loan can wait a turn as we aren't hurting for cash right now so I want to open up diplomatic relations with our neighbour and rival Hellas.
 
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[X] Plan Chimeraguard
-[X] Authority: Create Sleeper Cells, Black Sheep: You have your hooks in the Black Sheep. Find people who are willing to join your cause when you go to liberate them. (???%. ? Years. ???)
-[X] Influence: Diplomatic Contact, Hellas: Who are the Hellas and what do they want? Besides Trelli. (???%. 1 Year.)
-[X] Influence: Diplomatic Contact, Pulska: Who are the Pules and what do they want? (???%. 1 Year.)
-[X] Influence: Sell Bombards, Kus Minors: Do any of the minor powers of Kus want bombards? (75%, 1 Year, Probable Profit)
-[X] Influence: Survey Northern Core
-[X] Influence: Determine Internal Factions: Receive a dossier on the relevant internal factions of a polity you have diplomatic relations with. This will allow you to support or oppose their internal factions to be more favorable to your interests.
--[X] Black Sheep.
-[X] Personal: Relax with Family (-Stress)
 
[X] Plan Oshha

Not sure about the Loan action, on the other hand surveying while we are at war is also not optimal and the extra money would help...
 
I am sorry if it was answered already, but how exactly does loan work?

To be more clear, for how many turns do we take a hit in income?
Or is it permanent?
 
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@Kiba @tenchifew After some Discord discussion, I have been convinced that we should try to do something to counter the spy network that Western Wall almost certainly has since they were able to kill our heir and almost killed our king. So I shuffle around some actions to focus on Intrigue against both of our enemies while I have decided that we've got enough money that the loan can wait until next turn so I've replaced that action with opening up diplomatic contact with our neighbour and rival Hellas.
 
You know, now that I did some rereading about ymaryn society (any maybe watched a b it too manny whatifalthist videos), I really think that we should have taken the Black Sheep's offer. It would have caused some prolems, but it would also be the kick in the pants the ymaryn need to reform their society. As it is right now (completely dominated by Tradesman Guilds and Patricians with marginalized merchants) it would be a major barrier later on when we want to industiralize, as societies that are completely dominated by one or two groups of tend to stangle any beginning industrial revolutions in it's crib to preseve the dominance of said groups (if you already have most of the pie, you usually don't want it to become bigger, as that means that you portion might shrink. It's the same reason why monoplies are bad for innovation), especially it those societies also marginalize their merchants (the ones that ususally have the most spare money to invest into factories) or prective slavery (as it makes it cheaper to just buy a bunch of new slaves instead of investing in mechanisation, fortunatly not the case with the ymaryn). It's a pattern that appears again and again in OTL's history, ranging from ancient greece inventing computers and the steam engine and doing NOTING with them (a scoiety dominated by land- and slaveowning aristocracy), over early modern china (they had a major metalwoking boom that could have turned into an industrial revolution but was cracked down upon by the government as the confucian bureaucrat elite feared that would enable the merchants to better screw over the peasants and only they were allowed to do that) to the american south (a largely slavery-dominate economy whit the plantation-owning elite looking own upon industial endeavors as ungentlemanly). One of the reasons why europe managed to become so successfull was beacust the constant powerstruggle between the monarchs, church, local nobility and merchant-dominated cities prevented one group from having enough power to screw over all of society just to spite the others.
 
We are nowhere near close to having an industrial revolution. We don't have the technology capable of pulling that off and it is unlike we will have any tech like that for centuries. The industrial revolution is completely irrelevant in a decision of whether or not to destroy our government and economy alongside guaranteeing multiple future civil wars. I also doubt that a feudal society would be productive to furthering any sort of industrial revolution. Our current centralised, well-organised and wealthy bureaucracy is more conductive to making the industrial revolution come along sooner than an decentralised, disorganised and self-destructive feudal society.
 
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In that case, I don't have any major objects to Plan Oshha. Though, I wonder if it might be better to go establish contact with Polska instead of selling to Kus Minors. Given that they share a border with Western Wall, talking to them could be useful.

Actually, I'll just change my plan.

[X] Plan Chimeraguard
-[X] Authority: Establish Spy Network: Establish a spy network in one of the places you have diplomatic contact with. (33%. 3 Years. Fails entirely if it fails once. Unlocks options. May be taken multiple times, but only with different targets.)
--[X] Western Wall
-[X] Influence & Influence: Create Sleeper Cells, Black Sheep: You have your hooks in the Black Sheep. Find people who are willing to join your cause when you go to liberate them. (???%. ? Years. ???)
-[X] Influence: Diplomatic Contact, Hellas: Who are the Hellas and what do they want? Besides Trelli. (???%. 1 Year.)
-[X] Influence: Diplomatic Contact, Pulska: Who are the Pules and what do they want? (???%. 1 Year.)
-[X] Influence: Determine Internal Factions: Receive a dossier on the relevant internal factions of a polity you have diplomatic relations with. This will allow you to support or oppose their internal factions to be more favorable to your interests.
--[X] Black Sheep.
-[X] Personal: Relax with Family (-Stress)
 
Oshha said:
Our current centralised, well-organised and wealthy bureaucracy is more conductive to making the industrial revolution come along sooner than an decentralised, disorganised and self-destructive feudal society.
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Please reread the parts of my post about china and europe.
 
force200 said:
Please reread the parts of my post about china and europe.
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I will not unless you put your post into a coherent form. Unless it becomes readable, I'm not engaging with your rambling beyond the basic point that somehow accepting the Black Sheep's deal would have been good for us by helping make the industrial revolution easier.
 
Oshha said:
@Kiba @tenchifew After some Discord discussion, I have been convinced that we should try to do something to counter the spy network that Western Wall almost certainly has since they were able to kill our heir and almost killed our king. So I shuffle around some actions to focus on Intrigue against both of our enemies while I have decided that we've got enough money that the loan can wait until next turn so I've replaced that action with opening up diplomatic contact with our neighbour and rival Hellas.
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Yes, a diplomacy action sounds better.
We also might ok into delays in ship building there was a comment about it in the last update.
 
In terms of industrialization, the Ymaryn are crazy enough about iron (and by extension steel) that they are actually a pretty decent bet for first to industrialize. They would need to have some major breakthroughs in agriculture that would let their population skyrocket, but that is far from unlikely given how dedicated they are to agricultural investment and improvement. If any particular thing was to stop them from doing so it would be their commitment to environmentalism and sustainability. The Industrial Revolution involved exponentially increasing consumption of burnables. The Ymaryn are unwilling to consign all their trees to the forges and to dig up massive quantities of coal because coal mining is like the worst fucking thing for the environment.

Of course, narratively speaking, a quest where the Ymaryn were the first to industrialize and have the first mover advantage that Britain had OTL would be pretty boring. It would basically be the Ymaryn doing whatever the hell they wanted, which would historically be farming and ironworking and ensuring sustainability and avoiding collapse, while the rest of the world scrambled to keep up. Which might be fun as a power fantasy, but it wouldn't be all that interesting as a quest. Not without a good enough writer to paper over the fundamental lack of conflict.
 
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Reasons why I think accepting BS's offer is stupid.

1) There's no reason to expect feudalism's benefit to outweigh the hugely negative effect of civil war and destruction of our stability.

2) There's no reason for us to be first, only that we are supple and dynamic enough to react to the industrial revolution. It would be stupid to assume that the Guilds are going to be moribund enough to entirely scoff at some other countries's innovation.

3) There's also no reason for us to rush into an industrial revolution. Pollution hinders and increase instability for a country, canceling much of the industrial revolution's benefit.

4) We are not ruled by gentlemen scholar-bureaucrats who put great emphasis on learning poetry to pass exams above all else. Instead, we are ruled by elite nobility who considered administration, craftmaking, warfare, etc, as worthwhile fields of endeavor if not co-equal.

5) We love farming, and we wouldn't hesitate to adopt new technologies that make the endeavor even better.

6) We learned about Hubris from the Great Khan and that will forever remain a strong memory.

7) Being first is great, but in the end it is the turtle that wins the race, not the rabbit.
 
force200 said:
You know, now that I did some rereading about ymaryn society (any maybe watched a b it too manny whatifalthist videos), I really think that we should have taken the Black Sheep's offer. It would have caused some prolems, but it would also be the kick in the pants the ymaryn need to reform their society. As it is right now (completely dominated by Tradesman Guilds and Patricians with marginalized merchants) it would be a major barrier later on when we want to industiralize, as societies that are completely dominated by one or two groups of tend to stangle any beginning industrial revolutions in it's crib to preseve the dominance of said groups (if you already have most of the pie, you usually don't want it to become bigger, as that means that you portion might shrink. It's the same reason why monoplies are bad for innovation), especially it those societies also marginalize their merchants (the ones that ususally have the most spare money to invest into factories) or prective slavery (as it makes it cheaper to just buy a bunch of new slaves instead of investing in mechanisation, fortunatly not the case with the ymaryn). It's a pattern that appears again and again in OTL's history, ranging from ancient greece inventing computers and the steam engine and doing NOTING with them (a scoiety dominated by land- and slaveowning aristocracy), over early modern china (they had a major metalwoking boom that could have turned into an industrial revolution but was cracked down upon by the government as the confucian bureaucrat elite feared that would enable the merchants to better screw over the peasants and only they were allowed to do that) to the american south (a largely slavery-dominate economy whit the plantation-owning elite looking own upon industial endeavors as ungentlemanly). One of the reasons why europe managed to become so successfull was beacust the constant powerstruggle between the monarchs, church, local nobility and merchant-dominated cities prevented one group from having enough power to screw over all of society just to spite the others.
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1) I do not see how Feudalism is supposed to stop the domination of society problem. To me it seems like you'd just be replacing one ruler (urban patricians and guilds) with another (rural aristocrats and guilds). Worse even, because feudalism is a fundamentally agrarian way of organizing society, you create a powerstructure which is intrinsically opposed to industrialization and the existence of our large city levies.

2) Ancient Greece invented neither computers nor the steam engine. That is just nonsense that gets retold by cheap documentaries. The antykhera mechanism, though fancy, is just a complicated clock, and Hero's Aelopile was just a fancy toy (it was also invented in Alexandria in the first century AD, making it neither ancient nor Greece).
2a) The reason for the Great divergence between Europe and the rest of the world (and why industrialization happened first in Europe and not elsewhere) are far more contested and far more varied than that
2b) It's slave owners screwing over others because they were stupid. It's very simple economics. Slaves are (contrary to what you might think) not cheap nor particularly good at agriculture. So, all the investment capital in the South got eaten up by slavery, while agricultural production lagged behind the North.

3) European Feudalism died in the 15 century, when military forces were organized into larger fronts. By the time of the industrial revolution, the last vestiges of feudalism had long been eliminated. (Also, monarchs, churches, local nobility and merchants have screwed one another over constantly).
 
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@Oshha The gist is:
Chinese society until roughly the late 19th century was primarily dominated by a class of confucian bureaucrats, who did everything in their power to keep their main competition, the army and the merchants, from gaining sociatal power. This led to them using their position to prevent the beginnings of a possible industial revolution that china was experiencing somethime during the early modern period (I don't remember what exactly when) due to fear that it would allow the merchants to gain more power in society. Ancient greece and rome had a similar problem with land- and slaveowning aristocracy being the dominant social force. It's one of the reasons why the ancient greeks managed to invent things like the computer and the steam engine and ended up doing nothing with it.

As a contrast, europe being a disorganised and decentralized mess prevented a situation like that form happening and is one of the reasons why western civilization became so dominant.

For further info here are a couple of videos by a guy who's much better at explaining than me:



(explain how europe bing a mess tuned out to be beneficial for them)


(explains the hurdles that prevent a society from industrializing)
Unfortunatly I wasn't able to find his video where he mentions china's failed industrialisation though.
 
10ebbor10 said:
1) I do not see how Feudalism is supposed to stop the domination of society problem. To me it seems like you'd just be replacing one ruler (urban patricians and guilds) with another (rural aristocrats and guilds). Worse even, because feudalism is a fundamentally agrarian way of organizing society, you create a powerstructure which is intrinsically opposed to industrialization and the existence of our large city levies.
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The urban patricians woldn't just suddenly disappear, so there would be at least some competition for societal power.
10ebbor10 said:
2) Ancient Greece invented neither computers nor the steam engine. That is just nonsense that gets retold by cheap documentaries. The antykhera mechanism, though fancy, is just a complicated clock, and Hero's Aelopile was just a fancy toy (it was also invented in Alexandria in the first century AD, making it neither ancient nor Greece).
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1) Alexandria at the time was part of the overall classical civilzation.
2) Mechanical computers are a thing.
3) Hero's toys weren't the only contempotary inventions using steam power
10ebbor10 said:
3) European Feudalism died in the 15 century, when military forces were organized into larger fronts. By the time of the industrial revolution, the last vestiges of feudalism had long been eliminated.
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Yes, though it still layed the groundwork for the further development of european society.
 
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