- Location
- barking
thinking they have a rite to rule over all men?
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Westernesse: A Númenórean Colony Quest
- Thread starter Telamon
- Start date
Yeah, I think @Strange9's analysis really hits it on the head here.
When you look at it, even when we've tried quite hard not to be imperialist (by Númenórean standards), we've still done it in a way that casts ourselves as the saviours of Eriador? And we're trying to craft a sort of grand league of statelets and chiefdoms which yes, respects self-determination, but we are putting ourselves undeniably at the head of. It's notable that seeing themselves as saviours is how Númenórean empire started. Will we end up making the same mistakes? Is there even an escape from it?
It's also complicated, because it's not like being non-interventionist would have obviously made anything better. The Men of Sunlight would all be enslaved or dead in the tunnels of Mt. Gundabad, and the former serfs of Tharbad would still be being oppressed. There would be no alliance forming to oppose the looming shadow in the north. Even this turn's write-in with the Dwarves, which arguably is the Super Saiyan 3 form of our own saviour complex (and I think will likely fail), ultimately comes from a place of us seeing a car speeding towards a child, and wanting to push them out of the way in time.
The question is (I think), how does this tie into the Númenórean fear of death, or help us find an answer to what gnaws at our people's hearts? Maybe what the Númenóreans ultimately fear is a universe which is bigger than them, where they don't matter, where their story will be forgotten? This would mean that what we need to find is a sense of humility, both at one's limitations as fallible beings, but also humility before Eru. Perhaps what the Númenóreans find it most difficult to come to terms with is not really death as such, but a world which will continue without them.
This turn's write-in sort of grapples with this theme of humility a bit, in that we are very much hedging our bets against the probable likelihood of our failure. But it will still be extremely interesting to see play out in terms of Imrazôr coming to grips with his own limitations, given that he is very much riding on the "I want to be Extra Value Gandalf" train once again.
When you look at it, even when we've tried quite hard not to be imperialist (by Númenórean standards), we've still done it in a way that casts ourselves as the saviours of Eriador? And we're trying to craft a sort of grand league of statelets and chiefdoms which yes, respects self-determination, but we are putting ourselves undeniably at the head of. It's notable that seeing themselves as saviours is how Númenórean empire started. Will we end up making the same mistakes? Is there even an escape from it?
It's also complicated, because it's not like being non-interventionist would have obviously made anything better. The Men of Sunlight would all be enslaved or dead in the tunnels of Mt. Gundabad, and the former serfs of Tharbad would still be being oppressed. There would be no alliance forming to oppose the looming shadow in the north. Even this turn's write-in with the Dwarves, which arguably is the Super Saiyan 3 form of our own saviour complex (and I think will likely fail), ultimately comes from a place of us seeing a car speeding towards a child, and wanting to push them out of the way in time.
The question is (I think), how does this tie into the Númenórean fear of death, or help us find an answer to what gnaws at our people's hearts? Maybe what the Númenóreans ultimately fear is a universe which is bigger than them, where they don't matter, where their story will be forgotten? This would mean that what we need to find is a sense of humility, both at one's limitations as fallible beings, but also humility before Eru. Perhaps what the Númenóreans find it most difficult to come to terms with is not really death as such, but a world which will continue without them.
This turn's write-in sort of grapples with this theme of humility a bit, in that we are very much hedging our bets against the probable likelihood of our failure. But it will still be extremely interesting to see play out in terms of Imrazôr coming to grips with his own limitations, given that he is very much riding on the "I want to be Extra Value Gandalf" train once again.
- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- Him/He
I mean, while all of this is true I do feel it might mean putting ourselves under an essentially impossible standard to scrutinise it too much if that make sense? On both a Doylist and Watsonian sense.
On a Doylist sense building a league of free states and putting ourselves at its head is arguably about as benevolent an approach any politie having greater power ever had to its foreign policy in RL, and might even be the most benevolent option available practically speaking when, like us, an implacable, determined foe seeking to destroy us and our neighbors is looming in the background (without naming anything to not get into current affairs I feel that last point has resonance for our world too these days...). Moreover, we have reached that level of benevolence not even as an expy of a 21st century democracy but as a politie in a Dark Age/Middle-Age setting. That isn't nothing and it is worth noting that we are taking genuine risks here: I can't think our own King's Men are all that happy and we kinda have to hope nobody around the king back on Numenor is thinking about what we are doing too much....
On a Watsonian level the options we get are dictated by what is possible to get too mentally in a Numenorean cultural context, or indeed in any Ardean cultural context as we are arguably being even more respectful then the Eldars where to the Edains in the first age! On a more philosophical note, this is Arda marred, perfection does not exist and, back to practicalities, Gundabad is there so we have to do something...
So I say lets just be as good as we can be and accept the bounds our setting put on us.
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- Location
- Texas
Faramir said:
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hmmmmmmmmmm....
okay my sleep addled brain has no idea here though it is a very nice quote! My brain addled brain best guesses here is that ultimately they don't want things to change? for the glory of numeron to decay in anyway? perhaps futhermore going back to here past quotes/posts about death that they wish things to better than they are they alwasy striving for a better world a world filled for they rememeber arda unmarred they know the world does not sit right with them that is ulitmatley the source of all the discomfrot they will alwasy wish for a brighter a world, a kinder world the numerons seeminly have everyhting they could want but they still feel that discomfrt in there bones so they fixate on death thinking it will level that discomfrot but alas it will not? I dunno hope some other post there ideas about what the above means
okay my sleep addled brain has no idea here though it is a very nice quote! My brain addled brain best guesses here is that ultimately they don't want things to change? for the glory of numeron to decay in anyway? perhaps futhermore going back to here past quotes/posts about death that they wish things to better than they are they alwasy striving for a better world a world filled for they rememeber arda unmarred they know the world does not sit right with them that is ulitmatley the source of all the discomfrot they will alwasy wish for a brighter a world, a kinder world the numerons seeminly have everyhting they could want but they still feel that discomfrt in there bones so they fixate on death thinking it will level that discomfrot but alas it will not? I dunno hope some other post there ideas about what the above means
- Location
- Pee Pee Poo Poo
They're simply greedy for life, they live for centuries but want more. One way of fixing their fears is by extending our peoples lifespan which is gonna be difficult, but who knows we might do it, another way is to try and placate them in other ways, like building a hospital, so they can be healthier in general (as opposed to dying easily in the frontier), maybe even invite the house of death so they can be relieved in having proper funerals within their culture.
I think you guys are making this is more complicated than it has to be. They don't have the same quality of life and it's hitting them hard, build what they want. We don't need to solve it fully, or even all at once, we can soothe their fears by getting them healthcare.
I think you guys are making this is more complicated than it has to be. They don't have the same quality of life and it's hitting them hard, build what they want. We don't need to solve it fully, or even all at once, we can soothe their fears by getting them healthcare.
That's why I don't think we should head any sort of reformed grand league. We should be its ally and help lift it from above but treat them as equals. I do feel that we're on the path to do that. There's no shame in helping a friend back up to their feet after they've been knocked down. Elrond said told the original tower warden that he was not alone in the darkness and it's the same for us. By trading and speaking with the Middle Men as equals I feel that we can perhaps convince enough people to swing our way. I think the fact that we did an ethnography of their lineage might actually help us convince more Numenoreans to see our point of view, if only for here. They're distant kin, which matters more to some settlers than it does to Imrazor.
It's complicated and there will be a power imbalance unfortunately, but I believe being aware of it and taking steps to rectify it will help prevent the "benevolent" imperialism that leader of men would entail. We're trying to push from below and rally them together, rather than swaying them all to our banner.
Strange9
hdellaverson@gmail.com
- Location
- Los Angeles, CA
I'm gonna re-quote this and bold for emphasis:
Like I totally appreciate that the Houses of Life and Death both have positive aspects, but neither of them are going to fix Numenor's problems, and they both frankly exacerbate them (though they are, themselves, symptoms).
- Location
- Canada
Thinking that they are better than other men, and thereby implicitly deserve more than other men
Numenoreans are a people blessed, with a bountiful and blessed island, with a great and mighty empire, with wonders of knowledge and wisdom, with strength and stature, with long life and vigour
They have so much that the only thing they have to fear losing what they have, and to die is to pass on
It isn't right, it isn't fair, that they should die
That in the end, they will be laid in the earth like any other, to be eaten by the passing of time, to be rendered into dust, to be forgotten
The root of Numenor's evil is pride
That the Tall Men have so much that they feel entitled to have everything
They envy the Elves and Valar for having what they feel should be theirs
They resent efforts to befriend, advise and guide them through their troubles as patronising and two-faced
And one day Sauron is going to kneel down before them and reaffirm everything they believe, is going to climb to the highest strata of their kingdom just by telling them what they want to hear about themselves, and give them that little push over the edge
And they'll feel so secure in their power, yet so simultaneously afraid of losing their grip on it, that they'll be willing to literally invade heaven itself
Healthcare is a fine thing and all
But the absolute last thing that'll "fix" the Numenoreans is to actually reaffirm their belief that they can exert power over death itself and wrestle more time from it
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K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
- Location
- Belgium
- Pronouns
- He
Exactly. That's why I voted for "Doom unerring" instead of the hospital. Building some in the future is absolutely a good idea, but doing so rn would have send the message that men have a chance to live forever thanks to medicine. But it's not the case, and giving false hope to our people while reinforcing their wrong believes would be a terrible idea.
The problem is that building the hospital rn would be telling them that in the future we can hope to prevent death forever, which isn't true. We would soothe their fears by lying to them and giving them a false hope. It's better to make them understand asap that death is an inevitability, then build the hospitals later.
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- Location
- Lake Wobegon
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
So, two things. First, conditioning the provision of social services to the people on rightthink is ghoulish (I personally voted for Doom Unerring so we could act measuredly and in our own time and pace rather than in hasty reaction, but I trust the distinction between this and treating a cultural acceptance of death or renunciation of supremacism as a prerequisite is plain). Second, the question is moot, we made our decision and don't have the option to build a House of anything this turn.
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K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
- Location
- Belgium
- Pronouns
- He
In a vacuum, you would be right. But the Numenoreans thinking they could cheat death and immortality directly lead to the near complete extermination of their entire society. It's better to make them understand that death is inevitable, which is what Doom unerring does. Choosing life unending would have send the wrong message and tighten the risk of crashing into the same wall the the rest of Numenor.
The part I bolded is the problem. They would try to reach immortality and never would, creating bitterness and a fertile ground for Sauron's ideas to grow. The gains we would made now would be erased by the future consequences.
For now, but I doubt the option will never present itself again.
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- Location
- Lake Wobegon
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
As we have come to realize with the help of Elrond, while they last all our actions will be suffused with the selfsame prideful supremacism and envy of deathlessness, so this is not actually an argument against building a House of Life (or indeed any other action) in particular - to coin a phrase, there is no ethical action under Numenoreanism. But such a thoroughgoing social reformation will be the work of generations, and in the meantime, real men and women will have to continue to live.
- Location
- barking
We have to change how the nemenoreans think as a people before we can do anything about their fear of death since its a key part of their culture to want to live forever just like how some of them want to rule over the middle men. the only way to change that is through reform and education (or any other methods that I am not aware of)
K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
- Location
- Belgium
- Pronouns
- He
What part of what Elrond said means that whatever we do is unethical and wrong? And even if it's true, it doesn't mean that there's no actions worse than others.
Strange9
hdellaverson@gmail.com
- Location
- Los Angeles, CA
I'm sorry, but using a phrase designed to express the difficulties of trying to reform or rebel against an underlying economic system as an individual as a reason that a largely sovereign government can take whatever options it wants, no worries, is a little bit silly. Particularly when we, as a polity (not as Numenor, but as Tar Nilon) are literally settlers belonging to a massively imperialist/colonialism group.
Edit: "No ethical consumption under Numenoreanism" is a good argument for, say, an individual Numenorean to go to the House of Life if they're ill, or for engaging with their society at all despite how much wealth they extract from their colonies. It is not a good argument for or against government policy. Particularly not when the Faithful colonies almost certainly have healers of their own (and we haven't even checked).
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since he knows ic what consumse him what does Imrazôr think consume him and numeron?
- Location
- Texas
There are Houses of Life and Death in all the cities of the Tall Men. Two thousand years from the time of our quest, the last Ruling Steward of Gondor will burn himself alive in the House of the Dead in Minas Tirith, and his son Faramir will be saved from certain death in the Halls of Healing.
- Location
- Lake Wobegon
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Longer than that, surely? We're still in the Second Age, and the Third is more than three thousand years long.
- Location
- Texas
Well you see, time is relative in Arda.
Not that relative, though. It would be roughly 4,500 years or so.
omg it's hit me there giant man children that need to grow up. Man this is great and also completely fits with everything the great challenge of this quest will be to get them to grow up lol
edit: expanding on this they are literal man children with childish mindset but they ambition/pride the folly of men they view the world simple as there to play with which is why they get pissed when anything disrupts it that why they get pissed at death, evles cause they view it as disrupters to there little game they are npc. They view themselves as the literal great men of history wit the story being decided by them they are the protgainst and everything in there mind. They turedn away from the elves cause they did not treat them as the protgainst deserving of worship and everything. it just explains everything
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So would writing in some sort of construction project for like a roman bath + hospital + temple complex, crafting district (or like water powered milling/industry), military training and living district, or bones of a nice trade area be possible?
If we're not starving for raw materials or essentials and we're not bringing in foreign trade then don't we need to be value add somehow?
If we're not starving for raw materials or essentials and we're not bringing in foreign trade then don't we need to be value add somehow?
you prob want to ping @Telamon to see if they are okay but I think we need to upgrade a little bit more since we still don't have basic amenites needed to attract more coloniest from numerorn as a example
think of our little tyrant in the high tower he views himself as the protgainst of this story he views himself alone as the one to drive the story to save the little middle men from the cluthes of terror. Those middle men reisiting simple obstacles to overcome it comes across everywhere in the way he talks about he the quinstieall man child with delusion of granduer. His father before him? same deal that why elrdon cautioned he not alone he in a house with bright lights everywhere but that require recongizning the middle men not as npcs not as simeple chac for his enjoyment but real people which is why he was unable too recongize them as light equal to him for he views them as moth bassicly simple exist becuase there is the light of numeron. Again it explains why our little tyrant in the tower is like I saved you! I kept you safe and why the middle men says we are not children. It also explaisn why anytime we try to corrrect him and provide guidance simply see it as a child would some beat down of something Why elrond comments cut so so so deep it destroys the core of his philsiophy his entire world view. A world view will take a long time to go down but I am actully quite hopeful tbh? His journery across such vast breadth show him wow the world does not relove around me, there are place greater than me which challenges his entire world, the middle men not under his pruview are thriving there are people who never met him that why he silent the entire time for his in deep reflection which is the first step sorry for the rough grammer on my phone