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Westernesse: A Númenórean Colony Quest

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Also, there's exploration and exploration - ranging the lands and updating maps is different from ransacking ruins and mass battle-graves looking for essays of the Jewel-Smiths' craft, and there are other grades in between.
 
There is also another argument to consider - if we do not explore Eregion, then eventually the Shapers may send someone else to do it, or put increasing amounts of pressure on our colony to do so. Neither are great.

Therefore, the safest course might be to explore Eregion ourselves, then lie to the Shapers if we find any remnants of Ring-lore. (Perhaps fobbing them off with some mithril or other minor finds or artefacts, if there are any.) Then we can craft a Ring for ourselves in secret ensure that anything dangerous we find is safely destroyed, and the Shapers believe it is truly vanished from the world, and do not go looking.
 
Fezzes said:
I don't think we can afford to not explore Eregion. It's well and good for Galadriel to tut tut about the hubris and arrogance of Man in seeking things that should remain lost, but her authority goes nigh-unquestioned in her land, while we're a Shaper colony—who has, for some reason, called an inspection when they really don't have much actually Shaper-relevant to show for it—which was founded in part because they're interested in Eregion. I'd be surprised if there wasn't considerable political pressure on us to delve into it, especially since most of our reasoning for not doing so reads more or less as "The elves who are jealous of our ascent said it was scary so they could deprive us of more of their gifts, and I believed them" in the eyes of the people holding our reins.

I'm not about to go all "What is Aragorn's tax policy?" but to a certain extent Galadriel lives in a different world to us, and she doesn't wholly appreciate that we can't really avoid looking into Eregion without pissing off our sponsor, who is basically our life and death because the Venturers want us to go out screaming in agony. Or maybe she does appreciate that fact, but it still leaves us under nontrivial pressure to explore Eregion at some point regardless of what she says.
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Aragorn's tax policy?
 
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EVA-Saiyajin said:
Aragorn'a tax policy?
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Oh, it's a meme floating around from a while ago, sourced from an interview with George RR Martin where he more or less slags off Tolkien for dealing with heroic themes instead of writing the realpolitik in Game of Thrones.

GRRM said:
Ruling is hard. This was maybe my answer to Tolkien, whom, as much as I admire him, I do quibble with. Lord of the Rings had a very medieval philosophy: that if the king was a good man, the land would prosper. We look at real history and it's not that simple. Tolkien can say that Aragorn became king and reigned for a hundred years, and he was wise and good. But Tolkien doesn't ask the question: What was Aragorn's tax policy? Did he maintain a standing army? What did he do in times of flood and famine? And what about all these orcs? By the end of the war, Sauron is gone but all of the orcs aren't gone – they're in the mountains. Did Aragorn pursue a policy of systematic genocide and kill them? Even the little baby orcs, in their little orc cradles?
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Thus, people started mocking the absurdity of trying to apply that sort of question to Lord of the Rings:
 
The irony is that Tolkien probably understood feudal/pre-modern economics better than Martin did, but he just didn't put it front and center.
 
Admiral Skippy said:
There is also another argument to consider - if we do not explore Eregion, then eventually the Shapers may send someone else to do it, or put increasing amounts of pressure on our colony to do so. Neither are great.

Therefore, the safest course might be to explore Eregion ourselves, then lie to the Shapers if we find any remnants of Ring-lore. (Perhaps fobbing them off with some mithril or other minor finds or artefacts, if there are any.) Then we can craft a Ring for ourselves in secret ensure that anything dangerous we find is safely destroyed, and the Shapers believe it is truly vanished from the world, and do not go looking.
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I'd like to think we can make use of what lore and secrets we find to at least some extent. I wouldn't be, surprised I suppose, if following the Ring of Power creation manual as laid down by Annatar would leave us open to corruption, but I'm sure there are other things we can recover, relearn, and improve upon. I just don't like the idea of a decent portion of why we settled here (far from all, obviously, but still a noticeable one) being blocked off because of some twisted Tolkien philosophy (not accusing anyone of saying that!) of "that event went horrible, so eschew anything and everything associated with it"
 
My main concern about going Eregion is that we will pick up some lesser rings of powers and then our men won't be able to resit tempetion will pick them all up only give some back and we know have spread a bunch of evil rings throughout or colony and futher if we send some back to the shapers
 
Admiral Skippy said:
There is also another argument to consider - if we do not explore Eregion, then eventually the Shapers may send someone else to do it, or put increasing amounts of pressure on our colony to do so. Neither are great.

Therefore, the safest course might be to explore Eregion ourselves, then lie to the Shapers if we find any remnants of Ring-lore. (Perhaps fobbing them off with some mithril or other minor finds or artefacts, if there are any.) Then we can craft a Ring for ourselves in secret ensure that anything dangerous we find is safely destroyed, and the Shapers believe it is truly vanished from the world, and do not go looking.
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Not before expolring it and learning what we can from it. All knowledge is good knowledge, its the people that use it that are the problem. We are Shaper, not faithfull colony after all.
 
Yeangst said:
The irony is that Tolkien probably understood feudal/pre-modern economics better than Martin did, but he just didn't put it front and center.
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Including that taxes were more often paid in kind and labor than in money, even in Byzantium, unless you were a merchant. Alas, we see little of the port tolls of Pelargir, Dol Amroth, and Harlond.
 
Woltaire said:
My main concern about going Eregion is that we will pick up some lesser rings of powers and then our men won't be able to resit tempetion will pick them all up only give some back and we know have spread a bunch of evil rings throughout or colony and futher if we send some back to the shapers
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The lesser rings are nowhere near as seductive, powerful, intelligent, or magical as their betters. Think of it much like an artist's sketch compared to the final painting — both for the elves and for Sauron. The power the rings grant their bearers is less, the strength of Sauron's dominion over them is less, and their allure is not significantly improved over that of a normal golden ring, at least at first. They are not 'safe' (no ring of power is safe in these Dark Years of Middle-Earth) but it is not nearly so terrible an experience as one of the Great Rings.

EDIT: Like, they're safe enough that when Gandalf thought Bilbo had found a lesser Ring, he was more than happy to let him run around with it for a half century. At best, he figured he would get a little clingy and turn invisible to prank people (which is what happened anyway but that's due to Bilbo having the moral backbone and willpower of a king out of elder days, not Gandalf's assessment being on the money).
 
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Why Rings? Is there an IC metaphysical reason behind that form and shape of artifice? Is it related to how Morgoth's marring of Arda tied him forever to Arda, and made Arda his "ring"?
 
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then in that case I am fine with exploring we should still have a write in on if any rings are seen put them in designated bag or something collect them. Then we can decide what to do with them(prob destroy) since out men will be able to do that, these rings aren't that strong
 
EVA-Saiyajin said:
Why Rings? Is there an IC metaphysical reason behind that form and shape of artifice? Is it related to how Morgoth's marring of Arda tied him forever to Arda, and made Arda his "ring"?
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That's backwards, Arda is Morgoth's Ring by analogy to Sauron's better-known Ring. It's an analogy that exists purely for the ease of the reader.

But rings do have thematic resonance with ideas of lordship and kingship in Anglo-Saxondom.
 
Telamon said:
The lesser rings are nowhere near as seductive, powerful, intelligent, or magical as their betters. Think of it much like an artist's sketch compared to the final painting — both for the elves and for Sauron. The power the rings grant their bearers is less, the strength of Sauron's dominion over them is less, and their allure is not significantly improved over that of a normal golden ring, at least at first. They are not 'safe' (no ring of power is safe in these Dark Years of Middle-Earth) but it is not nearly so terrible an experience as one of the Great Rings.

EDIT: Like, they're safe enough that when Gandalf thought Bilbo had found a lesser Ring, he was more than happy to let him run around with it for a half century. At best, he figured he would get a little clingy and turn invisible to prank people (which is what happened anyway but that's due to Bilbo having the moral backbone and willpower of a king out of elder days, not Gandalf's assessment being on the money).
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Uh isn't there a pretty important difference between when Bilbo had the ring, and how things stand now in that Sauron has the One ring? Because while Sauron malice within the lesser rings is far smaller compared to the greater rings excluding the Three simply drawing his attention by being an obstacle in the North while wielding even a lesser ring would be a terrible thing.

Furthermore given how delicate relations are in the North a single poorly timed word might be all it takes for diplomatic attempts to fail, and that is well within what the malice of the lesser rings can do.

In theory it might be possible albeit far more difficult for Men to make a lesser ring free of the malice of Sauron, but it'll run right into the issue of doing so drawing the attention of Sauron as he will wish to bring it under the influence of his will like he does the Three.
 
Yun said:
Uh isn't there a pretty important difference between when Bilbo had the ring, and how things stand now in that Sauron has the One ring? Because while Sauron malice within the lesser rings is far smaller compared to the greater rings excluding the Three simply drawing his attention by being an obstacle in the North while wielding even a lesser ring would be a terrible thing.

Furthermore given how delicate relations are in the North a single poorly timed word might be all it takes for diplomatic attempts to fail, and that is well within what the malice of the lesser rings can do.

In theory it might be possible albeit far more difficult for Men to make a lesser ring free of the malice of Sauron, but it'll run right into the issue of doing so drawing the attention of Sauron as he will wish to bring it under the influence of his will like he does the Three.
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They are not 'safe' (no ring of power is safe in these Dark Years of Middle-Earth)
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There is a large gulf between 'will not enslave any who look upon it' and 'not dangerous', which is where the lesser rings lie.
 
Telamon said:
but that's due to Bilbo having the moral backbone and willpower of a king out of elder days
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I thought it was something to do with the One not being 'active' and looked-for by Sauron—as much as he ever wasn't looking for it anyway—and hobbits in general not having much in the way of grand desires and mighty ambitions for the One to tug on them with. I'm reminded of the absolute meme of a scene where the One basically just throws its hands up and says "fuck, fine, I guess I'll give you infinite gardens to tend, you're the Gardener Lord now if you fucking like gardening so much you hobbit piece of shit" and Sam just kind of shrugs it off because he doesn't see the point in having so many gardens: he couldn't tend them all!

Unless I'm missing your meaning and it relates to Tolkienic kingship being all about humility and lacking those kind of grand pretenses and ambitions, like Skippy mentioned and you portrayed with Gil-Galad. That's... also possible, thinking about it.
 
EVA-Saiyajin said:
Why Rings? Is there an IC metaphysical reason behind that form and shape of artifice? Is it related to how Morgoth's marring of Arda tied him forever to Arda, and made Arda his "ring"?
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....I mean. On the one hand, fiction etc.

On the other hand...
"When he told me it was an ancient gold ring, it felt like a gift from the underworld," Lundin told The Local. "It was my magnificent ring. I didn't want to give it up."
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Also, in Norse culture a king was expected to be "open-handed", that is, generous in giving gifts to his followers in reward for their service, to the point that a common epithet in the sagas for a great ruler is "ring-giver"...
 
Telamon said:
There is a large gulf between 'will not enslave any who look upon it' and 'not dangerous', which is where the lesser rings lie.
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Well that makes slaying a Nazgûl seem like more trouble than it is worth.

Admittedly Imrazor going on a quest to find a way to persuade a friend to take off one of the nine rings and save them from a miserable existence would be pretty fun. :V
 
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