K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
- Location
- Belgium
- Pronouns
- He
Isn't Galadriel supposed to live in Lorien? It has been a long time since I read the Silmarillon so I don't remember when she arrived there.
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Westernesse: A Númenórean Colony Quest
- Thread starter Telamon
- Start date
- Location
- ferreries
Not yet. Amroth still rules those forests and he will not pass to the West until near the second millennia of the Third Age.
Very excited to see this is back.
Interesting developments all around... Pelargir being friends is good, as is the Elves of Edhellond, but Lond Daer being a seat for the very worst of the King's Men is unexpected and troubling. Really wanted to go for a sort of northern alliance built between Târ Nîlon, Tharbad, and Lond Daer, and this really throws a spanner into the works. Which was perhaps some fraction of the King's object in doing so.
Although I also get the vibe that the other half of Galpazath being here is that he and his friends may have committed too many War Misdemeanours for even the King to ignore, and Lond Daer is a convenient place to stick him for a while. Cracking heads in the North and making any Elf-Friends or disloyal subjects there afraid is just a convenient bonus. I really fervently hope that our little colony is not prominent enough yet in the King's thinking that he specifically intended this to curb our ambitions.
By the way, the juxtaposition of Galpazath with the decayed mural of Tar-AldarionDoing a Colonialism founding Lond Daer looking down on him was really nice. A poetic statement of how far Númenor has fallen, but also, how the seeds of that decay were planted from the earliest days.
Interesting developments all around... Pelargir being friends is good, as is the Elves of Edhellond, but Lond Daer being a seat for the very worst of the King's Men is unexpected and troubling. Really wanted to go for a sort of northern alliance built between Târ Nîlon, Tharbad, and Lond Daer, and this really throws a spanner into the works. Which was perhaps some fraction of the King's object in doing so.
Although I also get the vibe that the other half of Galpazath being here is that he and his friends may have committed too many War Misdemeanours for even the King to ignore, and Lond Daer is a convenient place to stick him for a while. Cracking heads in the North and making any Elf-Friends or disloyal subjects there afraid is just a convenient bonus. I really fervently hope that our little colony is not prominent enough yet in the King's thinking that he specifically intended this to curb our ambitions.
By the way, the juxtaposition of Galpazath with the decayed mural of Tar-Aldarion
Yeah, but even now, we can't keep this balance any longer. For better or for worse we need to pick a side, especially if the king's man starts going after us for not being "patriotic" enough, as servants to the king and all. And we already have seen Peligair and Dol Amroth as it were. If they could handle themselves, just as being large navy bases, then why not use and our capacity to be a citywide foundry, and shipyard?
Well, Galadriel says we might be able to stay in the middle for about another century, perhaps two at the outside, if I recall her words in the last update.
That's not a long time to a Sea-Lord, but it's still a considerable time to secure our position, trade networks, and allies. Right now our colony is still a fledgling, with no hard shell, few claws or teeth, vulnerable. If we can secure this alliance with Tharbad and the local Middle Men, set up our trade networks, and build up the industry and defences that we have planned, rather than the vague chalk outlines that we have at the moment, then we are in a position to openly declare a faction.
Also, if we're being entirely honest, it's already pretty clear that we're tacitly extending friendly feelers to the Elves and aligning ourselves with the Faithful - Galpazath pretty much hints as much openly. But if even the fig leaf of neutrality confers some protection and keeps some doors open, then whilst it's still possible I think we should take it while we can get it.
That's not a long time to a Sea-Lord, but it's still a considerable time to secure our position, trade networks, and allies. Right now our colony is still a fledgling, with no hard shell, few claws or teeth, vulnerable. If we can secure this alliance with Tharbad and the local Middle Men, set up our trade networks, and build up the industry and defences that we have planned, rather than the vague chalk outlines that we have at the moment, then we are in a position to openly declare a faction.
Also, if we're being entirely honest, it's already pretty clear that we're tacitly extending friendly feelers to the Elves and aligning ourselves with the Faithful - Galpazath pretty much hints as much openly. But if even the fig leaf of neutrality confers some protection and keeps some doors open, then whilst it's still possible I think we should take it while we can get it.
- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- Him/He
I mean, I would argue that our position regarding the Middle-Men is basically uber-Faithful when it comes down to it, so it will affect how the King's Men vision of us, as it should since it make sense in the setting. More broadly speaking, I'd arguing that while taking a position that is very much in minority in the society in which the PC, whether its a person or an entity, evolve can open interesting potential storylines (and I obviously understand the attraction of picking options that better fit what we known to be morally right) but it also should come with extra challenges to reflect the fact that the PC is swimming against the tide, so to speak...
Mind you, nothing in this means that we should give up working on our relationship with the King's Men yet. On the contrary: they aren't going to like us but we don't need them to, we merely need a functionnal working relationship with them. The day will come when won't be able to maintain it without loosing our soul but we should do our best to make sure that such a day is as late as possible...
Strange9
hdellaverson@gmail.com
- Location
- Los Angeles, CA
While I essentially entirely agree with this, I'd like to add that I'm a little concerned that prolonged cultural contact with Numenor/the King's Men will sway at least some people in the colony towards continually more radical views. Like, as it stand right now, no one in the colony (I think...) is pro-blood orgy/cannibalism/human sacrifice, but as those who define themselves politically as being King's Men see and are exposed to that political group increasingly embracing that, they probably will too. It's difficult for me to see a way out of that particular trap that doesn't involve one of:
- Sectarian strife once the rifts between groups grow too large.
- Taking a strongly pro-faithful/anti-being-a-dick legal stance and inviting anyone trying to get into something sketchy to shove off (which probably has to be done relatively early for this to not spark 1).
- Making a serious effort to drive a wedge between the King's Men colonists we have (and their descendants) and the cultural currents they're going to be continually exposed to if we're a nexus of trade.
- Location
- UK
Well, given what ended up happening to Numenor, I'm not sure many would be staunch supporters of the King's Men. Sure, Sauron played the role of the tempter and deceiver excellently, but the attempted invasion of Valinor was just the logical conclusion of the philosophy of the King's Men, and their complete rejection of the Valar, their bitter jealousy of the Elves, and their desire for total domination over the entire world. The path they want to follow is one we know leads only towards damnation, and while the King's Men may not be there yet, there're already signs of the rot that will come to a head under Ar-Pharazon.
Now, I guess to a certain, limited extent you can separate the colonialism and imperialism of the King's Men from their rejection of the Valar and jealousy of the Elves (after all, humans wanting to conquer other humans doesn't mean they necessarily hate god), so there could be some debate over that, although IIRC we've already voted on that stuff and largely rejected it. Regardless, it's far from clear such a path actually has any measurable benefits for us. If you can get past pure ego and the obsession with power and map-painting, trade and cooperation deliver the same benefits without the downsides of war and bloodshed.
This is particularly true since our actual Numenorean population is quite limited, and probably will be for the foreseeable future, which makes it impractical to wage large wars or forcibly occupy and garrison large swathes of hostile territory. We simply don't have the manpower for that.
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I agreed, simply put even if we did try and have the arguments about wither or not to have such dialogues, they would be few and far in between what we, as a as of now small colony, can actually do or say in any meaning what so ever.
(I really hope this quest doesn't go into another migration till telamon gets up to righting again.
)
(I really hope this quest doesn't go into another migration till telamon gets up to righting again.
)
- Location
- Australia
The benefit, I would say, is hopefully to convince some of the more reasonable King's Men - those in our own city, as well as elsewhere - that we understand and are empathic to those of their concerns and goals that aren't colonialism, mass-murder, slavery, human sacrifice and cannibalism. It's probably super overly-ambitious, but what I'd like to do is create a sort of midway point political identity that rejects all the unsavory parts of the mainstream King's Men's positions, while at the same time rejecting the Faithful's adherence to and acceptance of certain gross, awful notions in Illuvatarian theology. If we can show the more moderate King's Men that yeah, we agree, dying of old age sucks, the Ban is stupid, and we are just as upset about this stuff as they are, we can hopefully convince them to at least stop taking out their anger at Eru's and the Valar's myriad injustices on people that are innocent of it. You could maybe argue that the Aman-dwelling Eldar are complicit in the Valar's BS, but at the very least the Elves of Middle Earth, and especially our fellow mortals, are absolutely blameless, and we should be uniting with them to create a utopia on Middle Earth and shove our glorious accomplishment up Manwe's pompous, blustery rear end.
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Pempelune
Fanfiction Deep State
This is completely absurd. Rejecting the Gift of Men is the heart of King's Men philosophy and if we agree with them on that we're a King's Man and that's all there is to it.
But it's all pointless anyway. None of the Valar, Melkor included, can do anything about Men's death, since that's a choice of Illuvatar. Allowing Men to set foot on Valinor won't make Men immortal, it will only make them more bitter.
Making Men fear their death is how Morgoth poisoned Men against Illuvatar, but it is a lie. Death in universe is not something to be feared and even if it was Morgoth (let alone Sauron) can't offer any solution.
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K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
- Location
- Belgium
- Pronouns
- He
It's not just theology, it's how the world is. There's no discussion to be had. Eru has decreed Men were mortals, and they are. And allowing humans in Aman would make them even more bitter and absolutely not help.
Yeah, if you could try and get the kings men to agree on some things while still shooting your own side is a horrible idea. The problem is, it's that one side has are ready gotten this far by actively disagreeing with the Valarie, so that doesn't really matter as the faithful would've have at least some point argued with that as well. Essentially, even if we did get them on those words and talk, it doesn't matter as it isn't a dressing the problem in the heart of the matters. As for the whole death thing, tolkien for all of his greatness as an author, made a very stupid decision with eru to make the story work.
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- Location
- Australia
I'm not saying we declare war on the Valar, or go on some fruitless quest for immortality, which, yeah, can't be achieved by humans because Eru is a scumbag. I'm just saying we acknowledge the King's Men's very legitimate grievance with the "gift" of men. I'm saying we try to find common ground with them where we can, not that we support their worst impulses.
The idea that humans only fear death because of Morgoth is patently ridiculous, and exactly the sort of Valar/Eru party line stuff I want to denounce. If I've got a wonderful, happy life, surrounded by friends and family, in a home that I love, it doesn't matter if whatever-Eru-has-in-store-for-mortals-after-death is a paradise that makes Valinor look like Mordor by comparison, I wouldn't want to be forcibly separated from that life, that home, and those people, and calling that forcible, painful separation a "gift" is cruel and insulting.
Also, the whole "we can't let mortals into Aman because it would make them bitter and resentful" thing is pretty morally suspect, if you ask me. Like, imagine you have an affluent gated community, and the owners say "Oh, we don't let those types in here - if they see what they can't have, it'd just make them uppity." That isn't a particularly convincing argument, from where I'm standing.
The idea that humans only fear death because of Morgoth is patently ridiculous, and exactly the sort of Valar/Eru party line stuff I want to denounce. If I've got a wonderful, happy life, surrounded by friends and family, in a home that I love, it doesn't matter if whatever-Eru-has-in-store-for-mortals-after-death is a paradise that makes Valinor look like Mordor by comparison, I wouldn't want to be forcibly separated from that life, that home, and those people, and calling that forcible, painful separation a "gift" is cruel and insulting.
Also, the whole "we can't let mortals into Aman because it would make them bitter and resentful" thing is pretty morally suspect, if you ask me. Like, imagine you have an affluent gated community, and the owners say "Oh, we don't let those types in here - if they see what they can't have, it'd just make them uppity." That isn't a particularly convincing argument, from where I'm standing.
- Location
- barking
I always toke the gift of death like how if your immortal, progress would stop because death no longer becomes a thing (like with buddism suffering is one of the steps towards nurvana i am def not explaining it to the best I can ( like for example how its the neumeroians lust for eternal life causes their suffering) and people would lose passion and any want for live (either like the elves in warhammer 40k or other long lived races that have no that become aphetic)
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Nope, it was to make estel of mankind kind or such. The idea of suffering and dying to help give meaning to life, is completely retarded, hence why so many people disagree with it, only problem is that he lumped them with the immortality seekers. The want to living and progress wouldn't stop, as tolkien himself thought of heaven, a place to do art, poetry, and everything nice without having any drawbacks, which makes no sense for his own world. It's like he answered part of the problem of evil, but since he only talked of part of it, he didn't answer the rest, and now it just looks completely retarded because of that. As for the pain of immortality, if you live in a imperfect than yes it would be painful, but if you lived on numenor without that than it would almost be a paradise without comparison, but alas with got a story that works well with out the whole one God thing, but than it gets factored in and everything gets cluttered in the mess.
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The bitterness is because they are in a greater paradise than before, but the immortality they cared for never came. Hence, why they would be bitter about it. As for the death thing, oh yeah I would agree with you, but the fact is that, even if we did agree about death, they still want to have immortality and to them, any chance at denying that is tantamount to murder, so it unfortunately won't work, because of the whole fear of death being evil and all that.
- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- Him/He
I do feel it is worth nothing that all the Morgot-worshiping and other side stuff only came pretty late, all things considered... At this point the evil of the King's Men is mostly what I'd call mundane evil: taking advantage of superior military and economic might to conquer and exploit others, as countless have done in both Arda and real life when they had the opportunity. There is grumble about the ban, envy for immortality and dislike for the Elves and the Valars but that is more or less it in term of more metaphysical stuff, so to speak...
Mind you, that still make the King's Men pretty unpleasant, to say the least, already but depending on one's take for the part of Middle-Earth history that haven't been explored, not engaging with people dealing in mundane evil might very well mean not engaging with most of Middle-Earth, and we are pretty small for that. Hell, even the Faithfuls are far from exempt of blame in that regard too, as their attitude toward the Middle-Men is can be better characterised as being less bad then the one of the King's Men, rather then better.
Mind you, that still make the King's Men pretty unpleasant, to say the least, already but depending on one's take for the part of Middle-Earth history that haven't been explored, not engaging with people dealing in mundane evil might very well mean not engaging with most of Middle-Earth, and we are pretty small for that. Hell, even the Faithfuls are far from exempt of blame in that regard too, as their attitude toward the Middle-Men is can be better characterised as being less bad then the one of the King's Men, rather then better.
Pempelune
Fanfiction Deep State
But war on the Valar is exactly where those grievances lead to. If you're unhappy with the Gift of Men you're going to be unhappy with Eru who granted it and the Valar who are His agents. The only thing your common ground would do is make King's Men ideology more widespread in the colony.
And again, in universe death is not something to be feared and it is canon that it is Melkor who introduced that. That's a part of the setting. Fearing death is surrendering to Melkor's influence.
As for your last point - your analogy does not work. This isn't the Valar refusing to let Men into the land of plenty or whatever - Numenor is in fact already a land of plenty. That's not what the King's Men are looking for, they already have it. What they want is immortality, which they will not find in Aman.
Now you can argue the Valar should let the Numenoreans dwell in Aman to see for themselves that Sauron lies and there is no immortality inherent to the Undying Lands, but the fact of the matter is that wanting to defy the Ban and reach Valinor is pointless. They will not find what they seek there, only bitter disappointment.
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I know it's what makes this whole quest is fascinating, and while it is a shame about the kings men, it is what it is. But, if you want to prevent the orgies, worship of morgoth, and the rest I would advice not letting Sauron to numenor, but well, we kinda can't at least, not where we are now.
KnightDisciple
Love God. Do Right. Fear No Man.
- Location
- Midwest, USA
Your objection to death predicates on the idea that death is the end, period, nothing-after. All Men go there, in time. The Elves are "immortal", but they are inextricably tied to Arda in particular. They can go no farther than Valinor. At least not until Dagor Daggorath is done and gone and everything is made new.
But yes, we get it, Religion Bad, God Bad, Christianity Bad, can this be the last time you hash this out please?