*whistles. The man knows how to make an offer. And if you dont mind me seeking further clarification. I was under the impression that his forces were extremely stretched, with barracks standing near empty. etc. Yet he has "the greatest Númenórean force for a thousand leagues." Is this talking purely military forces? Because I was under the impression we had more numenorians than Tharbad does, though we lack the surrounding middle men towns. Or is this purely military forces. As in yes we have more people, but his are soldiers. Or third option. We simply arn't within a thousand leagues of him. The enedwraith is large after all, i'm just not entirely sure if its that large

Speaking militarily. Tharbad has a core force of perhaps 800 (down from the original garrison of 5,000), but they are armed and armored with the best equipment the Númenórean Golden Age had to offer. They're 'reinforced' with several hundred Baradhrim, bringing their total muster to around 1,200 soldiers. While these Baradrim may not count as members of the garrison, many quite likely have Númenórean blood in the second or even first generation — they simply aren't counted among the garrison because they are not 'pure'.

That the Warden of Tharbad is not himself pure is an irony I doubt escapes him.
 
[] Plan Shapers and barraks
- [] Build A Barracks: Not just a clearing where the swords are kept, but a building made for soldiers to sleep. A necessity in transforming the militia into a viable City Guard.
- [] Build A Shaping Hall: A domed hall of cast stone, where the Shapers may plan, gather, and study. Most every colony has one. It would allow for a greater variety of construction projects, they assure you, and allow for several projects to be worked on at once. (Grows Shaper Influence)

--[] Ûrîphêl
- [] Explore Enedwaith: There is still much in the lands around your city that you do not know. Send searchers to find valuable natural resources or ancient treasures, and map your new home fully. A sizeable share of your people support doing this -- 3 Speakers are behind it.
-[] Scout Gundabad:
Beyond the Misty Mountains lies a mountain the dwarves mourn in their hearts. Evil stirs there now. Send rangers to scout the Mountain, and see what wakes in the north. A sizeable population of your people support doing this -- 4 Speakers are behind it.
--[] Barazîr
-[] Search For Signs of Gundabad's Influence:
There are whispers. Shadows in the dark. Shapes in the waters. Eyes in the forests. Evil awake in the lands of men. Orcs are about all Eriador, from the wide woods of Minhiriath to the ruins of Eregion. Seek them, and uncover their vile purpose. (Takes Two Turns)
-[] The Lord of the Tower:
At the close of your terse meeting, the Warden of Tharbad made you an offer: the tribute of all the lands south of the Gwathlo, which he currently holds, or claims to hold. Implicit in this offer was a desire to keep the affairs of Middle-Earth between those who rule on Middle-Earth. As is often said in the colonies of Númenór, "Êphal îdôn Yôzâyan, Êphalak îdôn ka-Bâr"-- Númenór is distant and the King is far away. You perceived something of his true heart in this discussion, and understand that you might have more leverage with the master of the ford than first believed.
-[] Accept his offer
-[] Send An Envoy To Rivendell:
Imladris, or Rivendell, is an elvish stronghold deep in the heartlands of Eriador. Founded and ruled by the Elf-Lord Elrond Halfelven, it serves as a bastion of wisdom and learning in these later days of the world, projecting Elvish might into all eastern Eriador. The elves of Rivendell are force to be reckoned with, and are great traders and loremasters besides. It would not be unwise to make their acquaintance. A very large portion of your people support doing this -- 6 Speakers are behind it. 1 is stringently opposed, representing the farmers.
-[] Ironbark:
In the deeps of the Iron Forest dwells an ent, an old thing with old eyes. He is no foe, not yet. But he is no friend of men, you do not think. Not anymore. Break words with him, and see if the strength of oak and yew might be bent in friendship. (requires hero)
--[] Imrazor
- [] The Land of the Ringmakers:
Eregion, to your north, was once one of the great Elvish realms until it's destruction by the Dark Lord in the War of the Elves and Sauron long ago. Here dwelt the elf-smiths whom the Enemy tricked into creating the Rings of Power, and amid the ruins of their halls and cities lie ancient artifacts from the glory days of the Elves. You send explorers and riders into this land to map it further. (2/6)
-[] Plan An Expedition
--[] Inzilbeth Seastrider
--[] (Special) (Requires Inzilbeth) Reunite the Crew of the Pillar: Inzilbeth's old crew have been sailing the rivers and serving as an impromptu city guard. Have them trade the sword for the seaspray. (Temporarily disbands the Seastriders)
--[] The Three Jewels: This route travels to the elvish harbors of Forlond, Harlond, and Mithlond, the 'Three Jewels' of the elvish realm of Lindon. (Costs 1 supplies)
--[] Diplomacy

With the orcs showing signs of organization i want to build a barracks as we plan to send the seastriders on expeditions. Building the shaping hall allows new construction options and its something that will help with the coming inspection. The shipbuilding option list that we lack wood to build ships so exploring the nearby area and talking to Ironbark is done first to secure a source of wood before we build a shipyard.
Visits to the elves might improve immigration as we get known as elf friends and unlock new opportunities.
 
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Hmm. What do we want to do with the Dwarves? It's an complicated situation.

We definitely need to start helping the longbeards at some point though for our long term goals.
 
[] Plan Connections and Journeys

[] Build A Ranging House: A place where your Rangers may rest their heads, gather supplies, and string their bows. It would allow for more extensive explorations.

[] Begin Construction on the Harbor: Begin using your stores of Númenórean Iron to build a great harbor that will stand as a wonder of the continent. (Requires Shaper Hero, will take 10 turns/six years, whichever comes first)

[] Search For Signs of Gundabad's Influence: There are whispers. Shadows in the dark. Shapes in the waters. Eyes in the forests. Evil awake in the lands of men. Orcs are about all Eriador, from the wide woods of Minhiriath to the ruins of Eregion. Seek them, and uncover their vile purpose. (Takes Two Turns)

[] Send An Envoy To Rivendell:
Imladris, or Rivendell, is an elvish stronghold deep in the heartlands of Eriador. Founded and ruled by the Elf-Lord Elrond Halfelven, it serves as a bastion of wisdom and learning in these later days of the world, projecting Elvish might into all eastern Eriador. The elves of Rivendell are force to be reckoned with, and are great traders and loremasters besides. It would not be unwise to make their acquaintance. A very large portion of your people support doing this -- 6 Speakers are behind it. 1 is stringently opposed, representing the farmers.

[] Explore Enedwaith: There is still much in the lands around your city that you do not know. Send searchers to find valuable natural resources or ancient treasures, and map your new home fully. A sizeable share of your people support doing this -- 3 Speakers are behind it.

[] (Special) Reach Out To The King: Send an envoy to the king, informing him of the tribute taken by the soldiers of Tharbad and their failure to pay it forward.


Learn the lay of the land, some furure development and a way to wash our hands on the matter of Tharbad. For I do not see a Man bewitched by a Ring to surrender his gains on word alone -even that of his King.
 
On the one hand I can see it framed as the Gate Guard being the chill laid out dude we like, while Urathil (or whatever her name was) is meant to seem like she has a stick up her ass and is way too arrogant.

But honestly, I feel the opposite. The Khazad-Dum dwarves seem far too arrogant to me, not even willing to meet out Envoy properly, giving us a QUEST just to have the chance of /maybe/ meeting their King. That's fine when you are just a dirty adventurer, but we're a bit beyond that, and the Black locks have been far more accommodating so far.

I'd suggest supporting the Blacklocks fully and to forget about attempting Diplomacy with Durin's Folk until THEY come to US. having them give us a quest just for the chance of an audience just seems so rude that I think following through would just damage out position honestly.
 
@Telamon
If we accept the deal would we be committing a crime against the King by not exposing Tharbad's not paying tribute to the king and accepting tribute that we were offered if we take the deal?
 
@Telamon
If we accept the deal would we be committing a crime against the King by not exposing Tharbad's not paying tribute to the king and accepting tribute that we were offered if we take the deal?
Technically yes, realistically... What the King doesn't know won't hurt him, and Numenor is /very/ far away. Not to mention we are of the opposing political faction to the King, our people certainly won't complain if we forget to pay our dues.

That said, we're also playing as Xenophile Egalitarian, so we won't be able to just subjugate the nearby middlemen without being hypocrites.
 
I was rereading the start of the quest and was reminded that we have a major debt to the Guild of Shapers that needs to be repaid over time. We also took the shipwright to setup a ship building industry at the cost of more debt to the Shapers. I think we need to talk with Ironbark and see if we can arrange for some form of logging, ideally one in which we also plant trees to replace the ones we logged, in essence tree farms. This will hopefully 1) appease Ironbark and 2) prevent Lond Dears fate of having no trees nearby to fuel their shipyards and any other project

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@Telamon do we know of tree farming or is that locked behind research?
 
Hmm. Do we have any idea what will happen if Imrazor report the Matter to the King?
 
Hmm. Do we have any idea what will happen if Imrazor report the Matter to the King?
The Lords of Tharbad face punishment for failing their duties and we earn some form of favor. Not very much I would assume - not in a matter this minor - but ever are Kings worried about underlings overstepping their bounds and eager to reward those who show loyalty, even if it perhaps only goes so far.
 
Not sure why most people are jumping to accept a bribe from the Tower.

If he can give to us, he can give back or not take anymore from his victims.

Organize a meeting between the Tower and the Middle Men, and hash out what the tribute should "rightly" be.
 
I was rereading the start of the quest and was reminded that we have a major debt to the Guild of Shapers that needs to be repaid over time. We also took the shipwright to setup a ship building industry at the cost of more debt to the Shapers. I think we need to talk with Ironbark and see if we can arrange for some form of logging, ideally one in which we also plant trees to replace the ones we logged, in essence tree farms. This will hopefully 1) appease Ironbark and 2) prevent Lond Dears fate of having no trees nearby to fuel their shipyards and any other project

edit
@Telamon do we know of tree farming or is that locked behind research?

The Númenórean approach to tree farming is that there are always more trees somewhere else.
On the one hand I can see it framed as the Gate Guard being the chill laid out dude we like, while Urathil (or whatever her name was) is meant to seem like she has a stick up her ass and is way too arrogant.

But honestly, I feel the opposite. The Khazad-Dum dwarves seem far too arrogant to me, not even willing to meet out Envoy properly, giving us a QUEST just to have the chance of /maybe/ meeting their King. That's fine when you are just a dirty adventurer, but we're a bit beyond that, and the Black locks have been far more accommodating so far.

I'd suggest supporting the Blacklocks fully and to forget about attempting Diplomacy with Durin's Folk until THEY come to US. having them give us a quest just for the chance of an audience just seems so rude that I think following through would just damage out position honestly.

Durin's Folk will likely never come to you. The Doors of Durin have been shut for a thousand years, and have not opened once in all that time. The Dwarves of Khazad-Dum were friends with exactly one other polity in the entirety of their history: the Elves of Eregion. When Eregion fell they shut their doors to all outsiders. The Longbeards have ever and always been a secretive and surly folk, and long hundreds of years have passed between the openings of their gates to even a single outsider. They have always been such, for the Dwarves keep to the Dwarves — not even their names they give freely, but rather adopt pretended names in Mannish tongues for what few journeys they must make to the outside world.

To put it very succinctly: attempting to outwait Durin's Folk (or any of the Khazad) is a fool's game. They are more stubborn than the stone in which they dwell.

Think of it less as arrogance and more lack of care — the Dwarves have never bothered with the dealings of those who are not dwarves. What care have the sons of the stone for what happens in the sunlit lands? They are content in their mountain, and all who would deal with them must go out of their way to do so, save perhaps those simple men from whom they buy their food. Their friendship is bitterly won and bitterly given — but once it is gained, it will hold for as long as the mountains stand.

Food for thought: The Dwarves did not fight Sauron because they cared about the Dark Lord or sought to keep Middle-Earth free. They have never cared about these things, or if they did, never enough to send more than a token force. They opened their gates and fought him with the fullness of their strength because he attacked their friends.
 
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Not sure why most people are jumping to accept a bribe from the Tower.

If he can give to us, he can give back or not take anymore from his victims.

Organize a meeting between the Tower and the Middle Men, and hash out what the tribute should "rightly" be.

I agree, changing the tribute into taxes agreed upon by everyone and solving old conflicts throught weregild seem to be the best option, and the most appropriate for one called the Wise.
 
yeah the situation in the tower is bad, while reporting him to the king might got us some favour we are going the elven path which would make us unfavourable in the eyes of the king and accepting the bribe might anger the middle men and I am not sure if making them talk with each other will work out . For the dwarfs its to be expected of isolationists like the durins folk to not want to meet with us.
 
Yeah, fair, we gotta do some sort of write-in to address the thing with Tharbad, just accepting the thing with tribute won't really solve that much wrt treatment of locals, if I understand the terms he offered correctly.
Gonna try to act like a middleman/peacemaker between, uh, Tharbad and everyone they robbed? That sounds very fun.
 
Hey guys, new poster to this quest, figured I'd chime in with my thoughts on the dwarf situation. Long story short, I think we should at least make an attempt at neutrality; this might anger the Blacklocks, but I'm hoping we can turn their thoughts to a future campaign to retake Gundabad, and the aid we might provide thereto.

What do you guys think of something to the effect of:

From Imrazôr, Belrubên's heir and Zainabeth's son, Sea-Lord of Târ Nîlon, to the lady Vâr, daughter of Vâr, son of Vâr, son of Vâr, of the Blacklock dwarves, greetings!

Here would I normally occupy many lines with flowery formality, with praise of what little we know of the deeds of your people, and with vague and general promises of friendship, but among the Men of the West, it is reputed that the Dwarves are a folk who value forthrightness and plain speech, and from the report of the lady Inzilbeth, I have been given no reason to suspect the Blacklocks to be otherwise. With that understanding, then, I will describe my position to you plainly, and trust to your wisdom and pragmatism to take my words in the spirit of good-will in which they are offered:

As a newcomer to Eriador, I wish friendship between my people and all of our neighbors (save the servants of the Enemy of all free folk), and the strife between the Blacklocks and the Longbeards of Khazad-dûm seems, to my understanding, a dispute in which none but the sons and daughters of Durin have, or indeed should have, any part or influence. I would not presume to deny or undervalue your claim, or the legitimacy of your cause, but nor do I wish to invite strife between my city and the King of Khazad-dûm by offering open and direct aid to an army that assails him. For my part, I would wish that the matter could be resolved peacefully, and to the satisfaction of both Dwarven kindreds, and that together we could flourish in peace and friendship, to the betterment of all our people.

While I must thus, for now, regretfully deny your request of aid and supply, another matter that the lady Inzilbeth spoke of gives me hope that, in the future, we may yet find common cause: I am given to understand that you hold a keen interest in the mountain and Dwarven realm known to me as Gundabad. Rumor has come even to us, newly come as we are to these lands, of the orcs and fouler things that occupy that ancient hold of your people; in those fell creatures, I deem, your people and mine share a common enemy. Should the day come, as I hope it soon may, that your current cause is settled to your satisfaction, and the Blacklock and Longbeard dwarves find themselves at peace, you may rest assured that you will find me far less constrained in my ability to provide aid. Indeed, in the cause of restoring rightful Dwarven rule to Gundabad - and thereby securing a friend for a neighbor in place of a foe, I would be as enthusiastic an ally as could be asked for.

Whatever the future may hold for either of us, I wish you well. May your people thrive and prosper!

This doesn't necessarily need to be an action we take, so much as a diplomatic position we hold, should the matter come up in the future. I'm worried that, by the constraints of the quest format, we might lose out on some nuance like this from time to time - not taking the action to give aid to the Blacklocks shouldn't mean we completely snub them. Plus, more pragmatically, more supplies for us and our precious, precious naval missions!
 
Personally, I'm feeling pretty partial to our fellow numenoreans in Tharbad. There simply seems to be a lot more to gain from being friends with Tharbad, than with the middle men between us. I don't want to consider what it would do to our reputation to be seen taking the side of anyone over fellow numenoreans.

That doesn't mean we should take the deal, as that would probably cause some sort of resentment, as they basically had to bribe us with hush money. Instead helping Tharbad institute a proper system of taxation instead of tribute, as someone mentioned, seems to be the best solution. We shouldn't do anything that weakens Tharbad, considering they *are* between us and Gundabad.

Perhaps utilizing the middle men against Gundabad, working together in a war, would be the best way to gain their cooperation.

For the dwarven situation I feel much more divided. In absolute terms, khazad-dum could offer far more than the blacklokcs, but the problem is that they aren't willing to give very easily, and in the time it would take to go out of our way to appease them, we could probably strike up a very good rapport with the other dwarves.

Again, I think we should side with the blacklocks, not in the war per se, but perhaps trying to redirect them towards Gundabad, reclaiming Var's bones, and thus earning inalienable friendship and trust. Additionally, they don't currently have a home, so convincing them to settle in Tar-Nilon would be far easier than dragging dwarves out of Moria.
 
Frankly, I would take The longbeards over blacklocks any time. Longbeard will require us to earn there friendship but what of it? Nothing good comes without effort and investment. They are also far more relevant to our long term goals of getting rich through trade and getting new knowledge for the Shapers.
 
I propose helping to reconcile the middle men with Tharbad and helping both come to terms by assisting both Tharbad and the middle men we can have reliable allies that can give control of most of Eriador. In addition I am partial to the Longbeards as the sons of Durin and agree with the idea of befriending them. They probably have a wealth of knowledge that can benedit the settlement. On the matter of elves establishing relations with Elrond and Gil-Galad are a priority. If we could help both the Longbeards, Tharbad and the middle men and befriend Elrond we can all team up and raze Gundabad to the ground.
 
Honestly fuck Thurbad and imperialism. And fuck making any decision to support them without listening to the stories of the actual oppressed people in this situation. All the information we get from the Numenoreans is incredibly unreliable.

Obviously, we can't march on Thurbad, and calling down the king on them would just make everything worse for everyone. But agreeing to anything with them sticks in my craw and (more importantly) would naturally piss off all our neighbors who we intend to have good relations with. Think about it from their perspective! They go to the new Numenorean prepared to submit, get a small hope spot, and then they find out that we made a deal with Thurbad to divide the land between us?
 
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Honestly fuck Thurbad and imperialism. And fuck making any decision to support them without listening to the stories of the actual oppressed people in this situation. All the information we get from the Numenoreans is incredibly unreliable.

Obviously, we can't march on Thurbad, and calling down the king on them would just make everything worse for everyone. But agreeing to anything with them sticks in my craw and (more importantly) would naturally piss off all our neighbors who we intend to have good relations with. Think about it from their perspective! They go to the new Numenorean prepared to submit, get a small hope spot, and then they find out that we made a deal with Thurbad to divide the land between us?
I wasn't suggesting agree with them I wanted to help stop their oppression of the middle men and make it so we all get along. Hail Men of the West!
 
I wasn't suggesting agree with them I wanted to help stop their oppression of the middle men and make it so we all get along. Hail Men of the West!
Sorry if I was a bit vehement, but I can't see how we're going to get along. The system of their society is fundamentally a wealth extraction machine built on the backs of the oppressed and supported by their virulent racism. Ours isn't going to oppress the neighbors at all and also we've made efforts to limit the racism. We are natural enemies, ideologically speaking.
 
Maybe the warden is but if we show the people of Tharbad the benefits of working together with the middle men instead of against them we can bring them around to our way of thinking.
 
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