I'll just steal that to include in my plan, if you don't mind. I think there's enough of Minases in the world without us adding one more.

It is a very open question of whether getting 40% more starting population will increase our economy enough that a debt with more than ten time increase will be worth it.
By that logic are you going to argue we should cut costs and go down to one 1 boat, since apparently starting population doesn't have a big impact on our overall growth and economy?

Again, it's worth bearing in mind that the Man of Gold thought they could pay enough money to cover the cost of the ships or the shipwright, and make enough from trade and lumber to turn a healthy profit in only 50 years.
 
What an interesting update!

The Lady Shaper definitely seems like a worthy option if we're committed to getting a strong start in our crafts and industries. We could become a small fully-fledged armoury or manufactory from the outset, although who will actually be buying our goods is an open question. If we want to befriend the Dwarves quickly, it strikes me that ensuring we have a strong surplus of anything other than manufactured goods might also be quite helpful.

The sons of Durin are likely to need the products of our artisans less than almost anyone in Middle Earth, for obvious reasons. This is not to say there will be no trade in jewellery or suchlike, or they might not be interested in our finest crafts. But they are going to be less inclined than most other trade partners, because they have an abundance of their own excellent goods without shipping costs, and considerable pride in them.

But wheat, pork, beef, wine, beer, good timber, and probably textiles and any number of other raw goods - the Dwarves love these and often rely on trade to get them in sufficient quantities. So we may paradoxically want slightly more farmers and less smiths, if we want to befriend the Dwarves early on. However our best farmers are also rather xenophobic, so this is something of Catch-22.

Alternately, we might sell our manufactured goods to the Middle Men, in exchange for their honey, wool, wine, mutton and so on, and then trade that to the Dwarves along with our best-quality, of course. Arrangements like that were not uncommon, but it would take a bit more groundwork. It's something to give a bit of thought to.
 
By that logic are you going to argue we should cut costs and go down to one 1 boat, since apparently starting population doesn't have a big impact on our overall growth and economy?

Again, it's worth bearing in mind that the Man of Gold thought they could pay enough money to cover the cost of the ships or the shipwright, and make enough from trade and lumber to turn a healthy profit in only 50 years.

Bear in mind that he is one of the Pharazarai, the Men of Gold, and as such is a member of a vast and powerful merchant consortium that has it's fingers in every single corner of the empire, devoted fairly much entirely to turning Middle-earth's resources into coin. Their ability to capitalize on trade and make a profit off of, well, anything is exponentially greater than your own, by several orders of magnitude.
 
By that logic are you going to argue we should cut costs and go down to one 1 boat, since apparently starting population doesn't have a big impact on our overall growth and economy?

Again, it's worth bearing in mind that the Man of Gold thought they could pay enough money to cover the cost of the ships or the shipwright, and make enough from trade and lumber to turn a healthy profit in only 50 years.
Original ten ships don't come with the debt we will need to pay, and thus give a much better return for the population they will bring.

To add to the Telamon's comment higher, the means by which Pharazarai would get that return would also most probably would not be very conductive to our long term live here. I would very much prefer not to uproot every tree for hundreds of miles around for sale.

But should we get that debt, I imagine the Guild of Shapers will want to see us starting to pay it off sooner than later, and thus there could be time constrains on us to start becoming really profitable, which in turn could mean we would have to pass up on long term opportunities for bigger profit for short-term return.
 
Ûrîphêl is a hard person to know. Fiendishly clever and prevailingly intelligent, she frowns on most pasttimes of Númenorean society, preferring a night in her study to socializing or dancing. One of the youngest ever accepted into the Houses of Learning, she demands perfection from everyone and anyone around her, including herself. Three of her apprentices are said to have cracked under the strain. She is exacting, demanding, precise, humorless. She is really the sort of person you should hate, and for a time you did. In younger, bolder days (like your fifties) you might have called her a rival.

But now, after a century, you both understand each other all too well. She has devoted her life singularly to the pursuit of knowledge, and there is nothing more to be learned here amid these decrepit old men. There is a fire in her heart that burns to see new places and new things, to do new things. Yes, you understand her all too well, and you do not think you would call her a friend, no — but not an enemy either.

Ah.

She's the waifu.
 
[X] Plan Unintended Waifu Plan
-[] Hyarnustar
--[] Gather a sizeable amount of colonists from here. (2 Ships)
-[] Rómenna
--[] Gather a sizeable amount of colonists from here. (2 Ships)
-[] Forostar
--[] Gather a sizeable amount of colonists from here. (2 Ships)
-[] Andustar
--[] Gather a large amount of colonists from here. (3 Ships)
-[] Hyarrostar
--[] Gather a few colonists from here. (1 Ship)
-[] The Shapers
-[] Númenórean Iron
-[] The Captain
-[] The Lady Shaper
-[] Angrenlond, the Iron Haven (Elvish)


Well, I pretty much laid out my argumentation out higher, so it's time to vote.
Approval vote:
[X] Plan Shipping
Why do you want to get the Captain when we won't have many ships, and also won't have the ability to make any more good ones?
 
Why do you want to get the Captain when we won't have many ships, and also won't have the ability to make any more good ones?

Because us refusing to go on seas does not mean our enemies won't.
We aint defeating a hugeass armada, but with 10 and Captain, we can defeat ourselves from a raid. Or protect a small merchant convoy.
 
Why do you want to get the Captain when we won't have many ships, and also won't have the ability to make any more good ones?

Why are you making such a big deal out of 5 ships? That's nothing. 15 ships is still a paltry amount, and hardly any better than 10 ships.

We are also taking two ships filled with mariners. From the City of Shipwrights.
 
Why are you making such a big deal out of 5 ships? That's nothing. 15 ships is still a paltry amount, and hardly any better than 10 ships.

We are also taking two ships filled with mariners. From the City of Shipwrights.
It's simply not logical to use one of our two companion slots to get a naval leader when nothing else we're doing represents a significant investment in a navy at all. It's a waste. It would make a lot more sense to get a skilled commander for our armies, like the Knight, the Last Lord, or even the Twins, as we actually have plenty of men for an army.

In terms of the importance of a "paltry" extra five ships, I believe that starting with a larger population will have enormous dividends and is definitely worth the cost. 15 Ships is 50% more than 10. It may be "paltry", but it represents an overwhelming improvement nonetheless. If you got a payrise of 50%, would you dismiss it as "paltry" just because you were low paid? Its importance simply can't be ignored.

Yeah, under that plan we might have two ships filled with colonists who are skilled sailors. But the fact they are from the "City of Shipwrights" does not mean that they themselves are "Shipwrights". They don't know how to design, build, and engineer Numenorean ships. They might be good at building them, but that's only when there's an actual Shipwright to tell them what to do. Are you going to say that someone who works as a scaffolder or a bricklayer on a building site has the skills of an architect or construction engineer? At the end of the day, they can't build us good ships.

Because us refusing to go on seas does not mean our enemies won't.
We aint defeating a hugeass armada, but with 10 and Captain, we can defeat ourselves from a raid. Or protect a small merchant convoy.
My point is that if we aren't investing in a strong Navy, it doesn't make sense to get a naval commander. If we're going to be focused on landward expansion and development, it would make much more sense to get us a better military commander. Wasting a companion slot on someone who could make a brilliant Admiral is pretty pointless if we aren't actually going to give them ships.

Without a proper Shipwright we have no way to construct Numenorean ships, or to fully repair the ones we currently have, which apparently are four centuries old and at risk of sinking. With more ships that might be ameliorated slightly by the strength of numbers. However, without it we essentially have a rump of a navy, and only a single ship under the Captain that's actually ready for combat or long and precarious voyages. Given time, we'll even lose that, as if the Captain's ship is ever badly damaged we won't be able to properly repair it either.

This is an inevitable recipe for catastrophic attrition that will make the investment in the Captain pointless. Yeah, we can't ignore the sea, but this half-hearted attitude to investing in a navy is a really bad idea. We'd be better off with a companion we could actually use to the full and properly leverage the advantages of
 
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In terms of the importance of a "paltry" extra five ships, I believe that starting with a larger population will have enormous dividends and is definitely worth the cost. 15 Ships is 50% more than 10. It may be "paltry", but it represents an overwhelming improvement nonetheless. If you got a payrise of 50%, would you dismiss it as "paltry" just because you were low paid? Its importance simply can't be ignored.

Yeah, under that plan we might have two ships filled with colonists who are skilled sailors. But the fact they are from the "City of Shipwrights" does not mean that they themselves are "Shipwrights". They don't know how to design, build, and engineer Numenorean ships. They might be good at building them, but that's only when there's an actual Shipwright to tell them what to do. Are you going to say that someone who works as a scaffolder or a bricklayer on a building site has the skills of an architect or construction engineer? At the end of the day, they can't build us good ships.

The latter argument is more apt than the former, but neither are really comparable. We're talking about ships here, not buildings. That's what the Shapers are for.

Wasting a companion slot on someone who could make a brilliant Admiral is pretty pointless if we aren't actually going to give them ships.

I'm really not sure where you got the idea that she would be the Admiral of our supposed fleet of warships from.

She's retired, and getting on in age. She goes on solo journeys now to find and explore new lands. Which is what we are doing now.
 
Anyway, figured I'd change my vote. I still think that Ships + Shipwright + Lady Shaper would be the best route for us, so I'll still vote for my plan, but I'm also going to make a plan for a budget version which seems more agreeable to everyone else.

This is pretty similar to another plan, "Lore of the past, Hope for the Future". However, it rectifies what I see as the glaring issues with its demographic makeup, which seem happy to lose certain skills altogether. If we keep a population of people who are good sailors and so on, at least we have a chance of developing the skilled techniques used by official Shipwrights, even if it takes centuries. If we get rid of them, we lose any sort of meaningful naval tradition and they're gone forever.

[X] Plan: Affordable Tech
-[X] Hyarnustar:
--[X] Gather a sizeable amount of colonists from here. (2 Ships)

-[X] Rómenna

--[X] Gather a sizeable amount of colonists from here. (2 Ships)

-[X] Forostar:

--[X] Gather a few colonists from here. (1 Ship)

-[X] Andustar:

--[X] Gather a large amount of colonists from here. (3 Ships)

-[X] Mittalmar:

--[X] Gather a few colonists from here. (1 Ship)

-[X] Hyarrostar:

--[X] Gather a few colonists from here. (1 Ship)

-[X] The Shapers

-[X] Númenórean Iron

-[X] Tongues of Fire

-[X] The Knight

-[X] The Lady Shaper

-[X] Minas Angren, The Tower Of Iron


I'm also going to vote for my original plan as well.

[X] Plan: Flame of the West atop a Tower of Iron

-[X] Hyarnustar:
--[X] Gather a sizeable amount of colonists from here. (2 Ships)

-[X] Rómenna

--[X] Gather a sizeable amount of colonists from here. (2 Ships)

-[X] Forostar:

--[X] Gather a sizeable amount of colonists from here. (2 Ships)

-[X] Andustar:

--[X] Gather a large amount of colonists from here. (3 Ships)

-[X] Mittalmar:

--[X] Gather a sizeable amount of colonists from here. (2 Ships)

-[X] Hyarrostar:

--[X] Gather a large amount of colonists from here. (3 Ships)

-[X] Númenórean Iron

-[X] Ships

-[X] Shipwright

-[X] The Knight

-[X] The Lady Shaper

-[X] Minas Angren, The Tower Of Iron
 
The latter argument is more apt than the former, but neither are really comparable. We're talking about ships here, not buildings. That's what the Shapers are for.



I'm really not sure where you got the idea that she would be the Admiral of our supposed fleet of warships from.

She's retired, and getting on in age. She goes on solo journeys now to find and explore new lands. Which is what we are doing now.
Are you being facetious? Building boats is complicated - comparing that to a construction job is an entirely appropriate analogy. If they aren't comparable then explain how.

As for being an "Admiral" - she's an incredibly experienced naval leader, even if she's previously only been a captain. If we were going to have anyone lead our ships or train our crews, it would be her.
 
Are you being facetious? Building boats is complicated - comparing that to a construction job is an entirely appropriate analogy. If they aren't comparable then explain how.

As for being an "Admiral" - she's an incredibly experienced naval leader, even if she's previously only been a captain. If we were going to have anyone lead our ships or train our crews, it would be her.

No? One trade being more difficult than the other doesn't make the second trade any less difficult. It's a more appropriate analogy, yes, which I've already said.

And again, why does she have to lead war ships? It seems reasonable to me that she could just as well begin training our own incarnation of the Guild of Venturers.
 
[X] Plan Unintended Waifu Plan
[x] Lore of the past, Hope for the Future
I like both of these plans. One thing that isn't yet clear to me, though, is how much of hand battles with Sauron/various other hostile forces will play in our colony. If we expect to be doing a lot of fighting, we probably want more in the vein of tongues of fire and martial specializations. However, since we're near the coast it doesn't seem obvious to me that this will be a problem.
 
No? One trade being more difficult than the other doesn't make the second trade any less difficult. It's a more appropriate analogy, yes, which I've already said.

And again, why does she have to lead war ships? It seems reasonable to me that she could just as well begin training our own incarnation of the Guild of Venturers.
I never said that the skills of sailors or carpenters whatever weren't difficult - the point I was making was that they lacked the skills of actual professional Numenorean Shipwrights. I was pretty unambiguous about that, and I clarified it across several different comments. I'm sorry if I was unclear, but I honestly don't really understand how you possibly be misunderstanding my point.

As for why would she lead war ships? When I first questioned why a plan would go for her, the point was raised that our colony might be attacked from the sea, or that our merchat shipping might be targeted, and that it was thus necessary to get the captain in order for her to protect us. When I suggested she could be an admiral, or could train our crews for battle, I was only responding to a point which had already been made by others.

It's also a bit contradictory that you say she could "begin training our incarnation of the Guild of Venturers". The plan you're arguing in favour of was championed by people who dismissed my suggestion of getting more ships or the shipwright, on the grounds that if we wanted to naval stuff and exploration we should have gone with the Guild of Venturers, rather than the Guild of Shapers. By suggesting we should actually be trying to set up our Guild of Venturers, you're actually arguing against your own side here.

My other criticisms also still apply: why do you want to invest in setting up a knock-off Guild of Venturers which will be inferior in every way? If you aren't willing to pay the costs needed to make it worthwhile and effective, then why bother investing anything at all? Just settle with the default ten ships and be done with it, and invest our discretionary resources in something on land that we can use and which will be effective.

So, yeah, like I said I'm really not sure if you're being serious or not here. It feels like you're being contrary for the sake of it.
 
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[X] Plan: Water Hates Technology, So Opt Out
-[X] Hyarnustar:
--[X] Gather a large amount of colonists from here. (3 Ships)
-[X] Forostar:

--[X] Gather a large amount of colonists from here. (3 Ships)
-[X] Andustar:

--[X] Gather a great amount of colonists from here. (5 ships)
-[X] Hyarrostar:

--[X] Gather a large amount of colonists from here. (3 Ships)
-[X] The Shapers
-[X] Númenórean Iron
-[X] Tongues of Fire
-[X] The Lady Shaper
-[X] The Man of Gold

--[X] Ships
-[X] Minas Angren, The Tower Of Iron


We can outsource all the headaches that trying to get ahead through sea-trade when our rival/enemies are so deeply entrenched will bring to the Man of Gold while we get ourselves set up farther inland. The end goal is to not need to rely on sea-trade to survive (it won't always be there), relegating it to a helpful source of profit instead of the lifeblood of the colony.

Also, the Hyarrostar and Hyarnustar colonists will be invaluable for dealing with land-based threats and problems; a healthy population of them from the start is essential.

Approval voting:
[x] Lore of the past, Hope for the Future
 
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Question.

Wouldn't this be Lond Angren? Like Lond Daer up north?

Because Lond Angren on the Angren rolls a lot less pretty off the tongue.

No, see the Sindarin name for Isengard: Angrenost.


You've misread my post. I'm responding directly to your previous statement about the boat builders and construction workers comparison.

As to me contradicting the plan I'm voting for? Not at all. The Guild of Venturers is unequivocally against us, and the purpose of us founding a new city is to ensure that the Númenóreans live on past Ar-Pharazôn's reign.
 
Why are the two leading plans using an elvish name for our city? We are trying to avoid attention which is why the family name was Adunaic.

As it is while unintended waifu looks interesting I think it is missing out by not grabbing the extra ships for more pop or the shipwright to build more ships and take advantage of picking the captain.

For me what I want in a plan is picking the Lady Shaper. Also no Tongues of Fire because those rely on Harad materials and seem like something we can work on acquiring later if we find a local source to power them as otherwise they will be useless to us.

Also need some colonists from Hyarrostar (woodsmen) and some from Andustar (scholars, Shapers and Faithful).

Like: Rómenna (Mariners for a naval tradition)
Extra Ships (bigger starting colony pop and more ships for a trade fleet/costal patrol) or the Shipwright (more ship production to fend off pirates and conduct our own trade).

[X] Plan Of Shapers, Ships and Shipping
-[X] Rómenna
--[X] Gather a large amount of colonists from here. (3 Ships)
-[X] Forostar
--[X] Gather a sizeable amount of colonists from here. (2 Ships)
-[X] Andustar
--[X] Gather a great amount of colonists from here. (5 ships)
-[X] Mittalmar
--[X] Gather a few colonists from here. (1 Ship)
-[X] Hyarrostar
--[X] Gather a large amount of colonists from here. (3 Ships)
-[X] Númenórean Iron
-[X] Ships
-[X] Shipwright
-[X] The Captain
-[X] The Lady Shaper

[X] Târ Nîlon, the City Under The Stars (Adunaic)


Okay so using 14/14 ships unless we can use the Captain for more people. Ships and shipwright is going to be a heavy debt, on the flip side if we can start ship production here we can potential pass those on to the shaper guild for any future colonies they try to help pay down the debt as well as serve as a repair facility and production for other Numenor colonies. In addition the benefit of being able to raise our own defense fleet and trade fleet meaning we need not rely on others to convey materials and products back to Numenor and the Shaper guild.

Maxing out faithful which also should grab us more scholars and Shapers for the colony as well as warriors. After that the woodsmen and seafarers are the two biggest regions, the woodsmen to explore the forests around us and guard any lumber camps we establish and the mariners to man our defense and trade fleets along with a fishing fleet to feed us. Mittalmar is 1 ship so we have a bit more warriors and some farmers as well so we can do some farming for food at least. Finally Forostar is 2 ships for miners and workers though they dislike us at first.

For companions the Lady Shaper would really help us push new and lost knowledge so that we both can long term preserve knowledge and shorter term produce goods not found any where else to help pay down our debts. In addition she brings additional shapers and the combo projects the two of us could get up to would be interesting.

The captain is a two-fer, she both gives us a naval commander to build any fleet around and she provides a connection the venture guild as she is well regarded and liked by them (well she is that way for most if not all of numenor) and a connection to the venture guild to help smooth future issues and avoid them interfering with us too much would be useful (see the 10 ships we got saddled with and the lack of a shipwright except for one who has retired).

For purchases Stone Iron for city walls and buildings to make our home a well defended fortress (see Minas Tirith), extra ships to bolster our initial numbers (a 40% pop increase!) and expand our initial fleet and the shipwright to both build more ships and hopefully train new shipwrights in our colony.

For naval short term having our own trade fleets allows us to better manage trade and not rely on others to deliver goods and tithes it also allows us to assemble fishing fleets to gather food and defense fleets to patrol our waters and escort our trade fleets. And we are ideally situated to be a major trade node so smuggling patrol is a thing as well. Long term it hopefully means the ability to continue to produce Numenor ships so that after the fall Umbar and the other areas from which corsair nations form can be prevented from launching sea raids against us and any allies.
 
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We should really be prepared for Sauron trying to corrupt numenor and become as independent from them as possible and to make sure to stockpile as many rare nemenorian resources as possible.
 
[X] Plan Unintended Waifu Plan
[X] Plan: Water Hates Technology, So Opt Out
 
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