BP aren't that expensive when we're not relying on our inadequate flagship manufactory. And I am worried about vortex scenarios more than minor daemons.
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Vox Vitae: Warhammer AI quest
- Thread starter Neablis
- Start date
- Mature Sci-Fi
I mean yeah, we could also find other past religions. Vita notes that other holy symbols also work to annoy Bongo just not as well. I do not think we would be using any Chaos symbols though unless we go with the bonkers Word Bearers theory that a whole bunch of Old Earth Gods were the Chaos gods in disguise.
- Location
- Somewhere on Earth
Emphasis on were. Exponential though Denva's industrial growth may be, it was explicit that our boon for renting BP when we returned would be a chunk, not the entirety, of their production. If we get back to Denva and they've increased their output to five times the amount so we can borrow 20% without any loss, great, but if it's a worse ratio than that then we might end up having to spend a couple actions more than we otherwise would have to to finish up the refits. And yeah, I think that's significant enough to argue for. Why not economise BP if we can? I don't think it's fair to dismiss my point for being a minor optimisation as if every other research people are pushing for are somehow vital to do right this minute.
I mean, right now there's a lot of opinions, many of which I disagree with, about what is urgent but some plans are pretty dominated by "stuff to use the very same turn" right now.
Our Denva boon, I believe, is the one-shot big draw. That means if we're using it to do anything really significant, we'd be spending those BP on building more BP that we can build up. Spending the one-shot boon directly on refitting would be wrong.
BP when we're making an effort grow exponentially, so the value of saving "product" BP is low. Mobile refitting is much more interesting for the mobility than for the BP sums, I think. But if the refit isn't going to be done before we get back, that doesn't pay out.
- Location
- A dark lair
- Pronouns
- He/Him/They
Researching the basic stealth stuff isn't for modules, it's so we can learn more from the DEldar ship and for sensors. Sensors and stealth are intertwined to a degree.
- Location
- Somewhere on Earth
I said 'as if they're vital to do right this turn', not 'we will use it this turn', and the cramming tech that would let us start maximising the repair bay's function is 100 RP and would also start being used this very same turn. This argument doesn't go anywhere.
What? If you want to grow a system exponentially, then every point of starter value, and every point that can be reinvested, is incredibly important. And the refit is incremental, every turn we put something into it we save a little bit of BP we could use elsewhere in a later construction spree. This isn't some kind of complex hypothetical. Hell, the stealth techs people are focused on won't even be usable for the purposes of analysing the Drukhari ship until after we refit the Spark almost entirely to fit the reverse engineering bay, and yet this is the point that you want to argue isn't that meaningful?
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Refitting spark isn't starter value for exponential factory building, unless you are proposing to put the freed space into onboard manufacturing. And even then it would only be significant if the build out isn't done in Denva.
And no, I don't want to argue that the stealth research is better. I can disagree with more than one priority at a time! (I don't dislike the stealth as prep for Drukhari research, but we need a lab too...)
- Location
- Somewhere on Earth
Yeah I know we need the lab, that's why I'm arguing for the cramming techs, so we can get to that sooner if we don't go back to Denva for a while. The stealth as prep for the Drukhari research is literally meaningless until we do the cramming first, so why not that? If it only saves an action, that means we're an action ahead, if it only saves half an action, then that's half an action to do something fun! To share toys with Denva, to make a couple more system monitors! We literally aren't losing anything by putting this a little up the priority list, so why is this so relevant to argue against?
Please stop trying to present disagreeing with your prioritization for the upcoming vote something that requires a special justification. It's just weird.
- Location
- Sydney,Australia
Honestly I was never enthusiastic about giving Denva all our manufactories and shipyards unfortunately without warp comms there was no real alternative but once we get warp comms next time we get to Denva or better yet an uninhabited system we can just start building a home base which can be an emergency fallback with defences and ships to cover it.
- Location
- Somewhere on Earth
Do we have automated manufactorums yet? I'm pretty sure we'd need at least FTL comms for that, potentially our own custom made AI.
Sure, but we're turns away from going back to Denva (at least if my preferred option wins), and Immaterium Understandings looks good to do soon.
Some of us (it's me I'm the one) also think we should stealth our ship so there's a chance we can get into a system and spot trouble before it spots us.
Cramming is pointless until we know what we want to cram in, what it costs, and how good it is. Meanwhile stealth techs allow us to unlock better sensors and the drukhari ship right now.
Could have done Mothballing. I argued for it way back when.
Or we could plop some stealthy void manufactories down in an asteroid belt.
There's tech for automated maufactories we can plop down and leave making stuff. There's just no guarantee someone (or chaos) won't subvert them while we're away without warp comms and/or something like personality checking routines.
We would need not only automated manufactorums but at least one tech beyond to be able to build a self-expanding factory. Probably more than one tech beyond for it to be able to both self-expand and do anything actually useful.
This isn't true - cramming lets us refit to cram down the parts we're already using, making the space available for when we do know what we want to cram in.
- Location
- Somewhere on Earth
The drukhari ship isn't unlocked by the stealth techs, it's unlocked by building the advanced reverse engineering bay. If you want that in the ship so we can reverse engineer tech like the ship, drukhari weapons and future equivalently advanced tech without compromising the ship's effectiveness, we will need the cramming techs. Well, first we need to actually research the blueprint in the first place:
Then build it, then do the Drukhari ship. The stealth techs by this point are cheap enough we could more or less do them at any point in this process.
- Location
- Sydney,Australia
With warp comms we can spend construction actions to build a manufacturing base auto manufactureing is only needed so we don't have to spend actions at all.
Yes, with a gamechanging tech an uncertain distance down the tree. But that isn't "just seed, then come back in 15 turns", that's 'spend actions making the factory grow by remote control'.
MrRobot
In doubt there's always the Sun!
it's not really AI there's one research we need to do that automate manufactorums as long they are set to produce one thing. A sec.
edit: here.
probably need a follow up research trough.
For that not really. we just would need to get to the system and order the factories to do something else really
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Not necessarily. Even the lowest auto manufactory could theoretically be pumping out things like stealth modules, guns, and so on which we could install on ships. One or two techs ahead should allow for automanufactories that make ships.
True. Guess that's what's happening next round.
Getting the stealth techs unlocks it in that it's best researched after them, but you do have a point.
Yeah, which is the point. In a game where all we have each turn is four actions, anything that doesn't spend that resource is great.
Not so uncertain; we have two techs that explicitly call it out:
So behind three techs.
That's not what the tech you quoted says.
An autonomous unattended self-expanding factory needs:
- ability to build installations.
- flexibility so that it is able to produce products other than more of itself.
- CP independence so we can in fact leave it unattended (I forgot this part).
All of those are follow-up techs.
Updates!
[] Plan: Shopping Spree
-[][FREE] Fix all Psychic Shield damage
-[][FREE] Reconfigure one Manufactory and two Light Lances into a Warp Lab
-[] Research x3
--[] Basic Spaceship Stealth (50 RP)
--[] Improved Passive Stealth (50 RP)
--[] Basic Active Stealth (75 RP)
--[] Basic Psychic Weapons (150 RP)
--[] Basic Pyromantic Understanding (100 RP)
--[] Faith is my Shield? (75 RP)
--[] Improved Gellar Fields (90 RP)
--[] Scrapcode Immunity (100 RP)
--[] Overflow: Psychic Tripwires (25 RP)
--[] Overflow2: Improved Armor Articulation (50 RP)
--[] Overflow3: Machine Spirit Chaos Resistance (100 RP)
-[] Explore: Vorthryn
-[] Victan: Passive Diplomacy & Espionage
-[] Anexa: Faith is My Shield?
-[] Tech-Priests: Improved Gellar Fields
-[] Cia: Active Improvement
-[] Cia looks: white and green armour, after Vita, with golden filigree, after Anexa. And some decorative scorching, after Cia.
[] Plan: Gate Snooping
-[][FREE] Fix all Psychic Shield damage
-[][FREE] Reconfigure one Manufactory and two Light Lances into a Warp Lab
-[] Research x3
--[] Basic Spaceship Stealth (50 RP)
--[] Improved Passive Stealth (50 RP)
--[] Basic Active Stealth (75 RP)
--[] Basic Psychic Weapons (150 RP)
--[] Basic Pyromantic Understanding (100 RP)
--[] Faith is my Shield? (75 RP)
--[] Better Sensors are Just Physics (200 RP)
--[] Overflow: Scrapcode Immunity (100 RP)
--[] Overflow2: Improved Gellar Fields (90 RP)
--[] Overflow3: Psychic Tripwires (25 RP)
-[] Explore: Scan the Gate from orbit. If nothing comes through & no tripwires are detected, do light, passive scanning with a probe disguised as a rock (with internal mechanisms set to self-destruct as nonviolently as we can if tampered with). If caught/confronted, explain we were recallibrating our Gellar Fields for travel and just hanging near Xylarys's most likely exit point.
-[] Victan: Passive Diplomacy & Espionage//Covering our butts if detected at the Gate
-[] Anexa: Faith is My Shield?
-[] Tech-Priests: Better Sensors are Just Physics
-[] Cia: Active Improvement
-[] Cia looks: white and green armour, after Vita, with golden filigree, after Anexa. And some decorative scorching, after Cia.
I was thinking something like Defiant, from Worm:
But with a different colour scheme.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
It is, yes. But it's also far more expensive to get since it has all those prerequisites, so that's why I swapped it for empathy at range in my spitball.
Low emissions systems is a 1/10th hull cost equipment that counts towards cramming; I don't think full ship stealth is something we're going to refit anytime soon.
I mean, we could try? But if it's passive-only we'd have to actually pick the thing up at some point. Or it could be point-to-point only transmission, I suppose, but we're starting to get to the point where BP would have to be spent making it.
I'm not inclined to push our luck at this point anyways - the craftworld eldar are legitimately our best diplomatic prospect outside of Denva.
Warp lab is one of the dangerous labs that would best not be put on our ship, IMO. And even if we put it on our ship, we have to pay for psychic shielding separately. Granted, at 500 BP the shielding for this lab would have even more Max HP than the oubliette, so perhaps the danger of having it on our ship is something that can be re-evaluated if we're able to... afford...
...that'd be 8100 BP to fully build that shielding before refit surcharges even if we weren't using the repair bay, holy shit. 1620 HP.
Uh.
A-anyways, one of the big perks to going back to Denva is that we have a ready-made shielded location where we can build the lab. Thinking on it, if we unlock warp comms before we leave, maybe we could even continue using the lab there while we travel? Huh.
If we use a boon from passing over our new techs to upgrade the manufacturing boon to a permanent share, then rather than blowing ours early to build it, we could just take 650 BP to supplement the 350 BP on our ship right now to finish the lab - that should avoid disrupting their industrial build-up, I think.
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avatar11792
Et Sic Incipit
- Location
- Planet Earth, North America
- Location
- Boston