Vox Vitae: Warhammer AI quest

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BeepSmile said:
Personally, since OMC is so critical to them making best use of what Vita's leaving behind (if I've read the update correctly), I don't think that we need to spend a request on this. They'll put a fair bit of work into regardless, imo.
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the main benefit of doing the request, Is that we get the results of there research.

Also still against gaining any new C Crew from here. I want some non-humans for Crew. since with the navigator, thats basically locked in as one, that means 4/7 of those slots are already taken.
 
One additional thing I think we should do before we leave is research the abacus manufacturing process, unless we want to commit to coming back to Denva in a few turns with it. Otherwise they're pretty much stuck in system (not completely so, but they'll have no navigator so they need to slow jump anywhere)
 
Still want large scale machine spirits... They're not going to be able to control nearly all the stuff we leave behind, though, so we probably need mothballing, too. Hmm...
 
edofthesquid said:
One additional thing I think we should do before we leave is research the abacus manufacturing process, unless we want to commit to coming back to Denva in a few turns with it. Otherwise they're pretty much stuck in system (not completely so, but they'll have no navigator so they need to slow jump anywhere)
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We have already committed to coming back, we did not give them any warp tech, because we do not trust it without testing in modern conditions.
 
edofthesquid said:
One additional thing I think we should do before we leave is research the abacus manufacturing process, unless we want to commit to coming back to Denva in a few turns with it. Otherwise they're pretty much stuck in system (not completely so, but they'll have no navigator so they need to slow jump anywhere)
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We didn't give them warp drives, so that they would build tall instead of trying to explore/expand and run into necrons/daemons/whatever
 
Neablis said:
Improved Gellar Fields (100 RP)
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Do this. There is no excuse not to, if we're jumping into hell, I want the best shielding possible.

Also:
-[] Large-scale Void Manufacturing (100 RP) Unlike ground factories, which have to deal with gravity and atmosphere, there's little stopping you from just... scaling up the principles of void manufacturing. Besides the annoying spaghetti of logistics, but that's a solvable problem. (Allows you to design large void manufactories that are more efficient, improves the manufactories on your ships to be 1/5 instead of 1/10 production. Potential for other void-based platform technologies).

Necessary in the long run. If we can boost the manufactories to 1:1, 1:2, or 1:3 prod, we can build a couple pure production ships and take our production with us, like we're Battlestar Galactica, or some shit. Will benefit Denva as well.
 
We already done this system lot of aid

We should focus on getting ready for leaving in 1 to 2 turns

Improved gellar field,implemente machine spirits into our psy shields and make psy shield production cheaper

Also,jesus christ bongo really brings down the demonology tree costs
 
I don't care who the IRS sends how much it discounts demonology research, I'm not paying my taxes keeping a scrapcode generator around.

I'm going to put together a plan that yeets Bongo into the sun and uses the freed up actions on other things.
 
As some people have already pointed out, dedicating one last action to ensure Denva stays as egalitarian as it is is the kind of thing that makes or breaks a society. They've already got a good foundation but it's probably best to hammer that in now rather than finding out it's all degenerated into petty squabbles and oligarchies when we come back.

I'll vote for any plan that includes Denva: Unification.
 
armentho said:
We already done this system lot of aid

We should focus on getting ready for leaving in 1 to 2 turns

Improved gellar field,implemente machine spirits into our psy shields and make psy shield production cheaper

Also,jesus christ bongo really brings down the demonology tree costs
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I think we need to leave this turn, the GM has done everything but sound a bullhorn with 'Wayfarer' on the side.

As for demonology, yeah that comes with being a daemon. For most things research goes smoother if you have the object of study in hand. :V
 
10ebbor10 said:
For a very simple reason. if Denva descends into eugenics, then it doesn't need genetic engineering to do so. Every historical expression of eugenics, every caste system, every instance of discrimination precedes genetic engineering.

If Denva descends into eugenics and we have given them gene-engineering tech, then they might use that to sterilize the undesirables. If they descend into eugenics and we didn't give them the technology, they'll just use chemicals, or mandatory anti-conception, or regular bullets. The effect is the same, the technology is irrelevant
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I don't understand the issue with uplifting all of humanity, removing human defects with technology, and improving on the human baseline in all senses of the word, in longevity, in intelligence, and so forth. These are all positive things that will help them develop and survive in an extremely hostile universe, wherein the slightest most precious of edges must be applied, and holding the entire species back 'because could be bad in the worst case' seems foolish. Even without it, large-scale high-level genetics is absolutely crucial to have any tool to detect and deal with genestealer cults, and given that we're next to a Tyranid splinter fleet, that is a real risk that they'll have to deal with.

Really, we're trusting them with most of our tech base, if you have so little faith in them as a society to not suddenly go megahitler, why the fuck are we even giving them anything? Even the automation and manufacturing tech can be used to make an army of robots to enforce a regime's will. Juvenant can be used to make a Cauldron-esque eternal shadowy caste system (but in this case, may be for their benefit). And so forth.

Fundamentally, whether or not Denva, in the long run, becomes a technocratic semi-heirarchal empire, a Star Trek-esque democratic Federation, or whatever else is ultimately up to their society, so long as they don't become the Imperium v2. Neither democracy nor capitalism have exactly proved themselves to be the best prevailing ideologies, so I'm not married to them (the latter has been responsible for more death, destruction, slavery, ecological devestation, corruption, and so forth than communism ever could, and the former mutated into an oligarchy near globally in a relatively short period of time).

Really, keeping them ignorant 'for their own good' is foolish in a immensely hostile universe.
 
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[ ]Bye Denva see you in 20(ish) years
-[ ] 2xReaserch 400RP
--[] Blueprint
100RP Assembler Factory Ship (2,925 BP, 100 CP), Frigate, 100 RP, 100 CP, Hull 1000 BP, 2200x600 meters, Engines: 7 gravities for 225 BP, Shields: medium for 150 BP, Armor: medium for 150 BP, Warp Drive (100 BP), Void Abacus (100 BP), Psychic Shielding (200 BP), Manufactory (1,000 BP)
= (100RP) = (Complete 300RP left)
--[ ] Abacus Manufacturing (100 RP) = (Complete 200RP left)
--[ ] Industrial Organic-Machine Control (150RP - 60 Anexa RP) = (Complete 110RP Left)
--[ ] Further Scrapcode Research (100 RP) = (complete 10RP left)
--[ ] Okay, maybe there's a point to medical school (20/50 RP) = (+10, 30/50 RP)
-[ ] construction
--[ ] repair bay (1000 RBP)
---[ ] Psy shields (-100 RBP)
--[ ] Flagship Refits: 2,300BP, 200CP -100 BP cap
---[ ] Drop 2x Manufactories, 1x Captive Holding Cells.500 BP, 100CP Warp Research Lab 3 Slots build use 1800BP for 180 Psy shield
--[ ]2x Assembler Factory Ship cost: 5,850 BP –200CP +200BP cap
--[ ] upgrade
---[ ] 26 Ground manufactories into Machine Spirit Manufactory cost: 520 BP, +780CP
-[ ] Explore: Ascalon
-[] Anexa active Action: Research Industrial Organic-Machine Control
-[] Victan passive action: Counterespionage & Alliance-building
-[] Cia Passive Psyker improvement
-[ ] Denva: Technology Request: Walkers This is a path that you know exists and one that would be an amazing force multiplier for both yourself and Denva due to numbers you can field a small walker can be equipped with better void shields and heavier weapons than anything heavy tanks can handle on top of that a walker can handle rougher terrain (also as Anexa reminds you AI is called Abominable intelligence and the Men of Iron are figures of terror so maybe Denva not having armies of combat robots would be a smarter Idea)
-[ ] Denva: Crew: Tech-priests more hands to handle research or even just a dedicated team for turning ideas into functioning blueprints anything to handle the slog that is currently drowning you and Anexa
-[] Yes
Denva is an egalitarian and overall decent place, and they can use this research to generally become a happier, healthier and more productive society. You just need to trust them to use it properly.
-[ ]scrapcode: destroy. It's time for the useful pain in your processers to go and get the worst sunburn in the galaxy

Ok so I'm doing some weird shit with everything this turn mostly because I want to get some more options open and get us out of the system so to start with research the assembler and Abacus for a support ship to help with any building we need on the move 100BP will help solve any manufacturing problems we have is a good seed for a manufactory base and when we get Large-scale Void Manufacturing it'll become 200 a ship then industrial OMC so that we can transfer all this manufactory stuff over finally I think we can tank a scrapcode turn with our 200 point vault if nothing else bongo is getting sent back to hell and I hope it hates the sunburn.

On to construction psy shield auto repair and on the flagship getting that warp lab and securing it is necessary i also want to get 2 of the assembler ships I'm getting the blueprint researched for and then use the rest on turning 26 ground manufacturies into machine spirit ones to free up 780CP

With Denva I want a tech preist crew and for them to research and use walkers as their main combat unit.


edit: forgot the BP cap increase of ship manufactory is the build cost divided by 10.
 
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Cookiesndip said:
I don't understand the issue with uplifting all of humanity, removing human defects with technology, and improving on the human baseline in all senses of the word, in longevity, in intelligence, and so forth. These are all positive things that will help them develop and survive in an extremely hostile universe, wherein the slightest most precious of edges must be applied, and holding the entire species back 'because could be bad in the worst case' seems foolish. Even without it, large-scale high-level genetics is absolutely crucial to have any tool to detect deal with genestealer cults, and given that we're next to a Tyranid splinter fleet, that is a real risk that they'll have to deal with.

Really, we're trusting them with most of our tech base, if you have so little faith in them as a society to not suddenly go megahitler, why the fuck are we even giving them anything? Even the automation and manufacturing tech can be used to make an army of robots to enforce a regime's will. Juvenant can be used to make a Cauldron-esque eternal shadowy caste system (but in this case, may be for their benefit).

Fundamentally, whether or not Denva, in the long run, becomes a technocratic semi-heirarchal empire, a Star Trek-esque Federation, or whatever else is ultimately up to their society, so long as they don't become the Imperium v2. Democracy nor capitalism have exactly proved themselves to be the best prevailing ideologies (the latter has been responsible for more death, destruction, slavery, ecological devestation, corruption, and so forth than communism ever could, and the former mutated into an oligarchy in a relatively short period of time).

Really, keeping them ignorant 'for their own good' is foolish.
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Democracy has at no point mutated into an oligarchy, there elements of oligarchy have always been there. In the developed world they are more prominent now than 50 years ago, but they are still considerably less prominent than they were 100 years ago nevermind 150 years ago.

This is a bit of a pet peeve of mine, but it is actually relevant to Denva, a democracy that emerged 200 odd years ago out of a rebellion against theocratic super-fascism which now has to deal with the pressures of an immortal elite of about a 100 or so from our starship and automation at an unimaginable scale. They will no doubt have moments of regression as much as progress. But becoming the Imperium is going to be nigh impossible since the Imperium can only be as hideously evil as it is because of how enormous it is and because of all the ways smaller systems adapt to the insanity of the center in an almost Darwinian motion. The Imperium can only function as much as it does from the inertia of its present circumstances.
 
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michaell8000 said:
]Bye Denva see you in 20(ish) years
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Each frigate is only 100 prod. It's not worth it without additional research to make manufactory ships far more productive.

-[] Large-scale Void Manufacturing (100 RP) Unlike ground factories, which have to deal with gravity and atmosphere, there's little stopping you from just... scaling up the principles of void manufacturing. Besides the annoying spaghetti of logistics, but that's a solvable problem. (Allows you to design large void manufactories that are more efficient, improves the manufactories on your ships to be 1/5 instead of 1/10 production. Potential for other void-based platform technologies).

As a bare minimum, but I'd prefer 1:3 at least.
 
Cookiesndip said:
Each frigate is only 100 prod. It's not worth it without additional research to make manufactory ships far more productive.

-[] Large-scale Void Manufacturing (100 RP) Unlike ground factories, which have to deal with gravity and atmosphere, there's little stopping you from just... scaling up the principles of void manufacturing. Besides the annoying spaghetti of logistics, but that's a solvable problem. (Allows you to design large void manufactories that are more efficient, improves the manufactories on your ships to be 1/5 instead of 1/10 production. Potential for other void-based platform technologies).

As a bare minimum, but I'd prefer 1:3 at least.
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Fuck me🤦‍♂️ right forgot that's build cost not cap ugh problem is we do need bigger amount issue with that is I already squeeze all the RP I could so we only have the space for a frigate blueprint.
 
Neablis said:

What two boons do you request of Denva? (Part of plan vote)

One for the technology transfer, another for the Aerithon installations. If you come back with more gifts in the future you'll be able to pick from this list again. You're allowed to pick the same thing twice, and that will be synergistic and direct their development to some extent. If you pick manufacturing twice they'll have more manufacturing when you return, etc. Redeeming a boon will also be a free action, or part of a larger action.
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Neablis said:
-[] Denva (Write in)
This can be anything, and can significantly effect how their culture develops. You could ask them to start building a space elevator, or to start a culture of asteroid mining, or uplift the Vellkar, etc.
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Alright, you can probably guess what my proposed boon write-in is:

-[] Denva: "Be for others as I have been for you."
Denva has been thrown a light, a hope - a future, from a time and peace not truly known since the Long Night, mourned forever lost. Not through their strength of will or pious character or heroic effort, but because they were seen, cold and huddled around dying embers, by one with the compassion and courage not to hoard and safeguard Her flame, but to risk it to the cruel, cold winds of a not merely uncaring but malicious universe, so that She may light their kindling and share in the warmth, the security, the industry - the promise of change and better tomorrows - that the fire of progress so long ago stolen from the gods for all humankind brings.
All around there are those alike and unlike in mind, body and soul, who huddle around embers weaker against harsh winds colder than Denva had ever known. Those with even a hundredth of a flicker of a spark jealously grasp their fading lights for themselves, their kin and creed as did the Mechanicus of old, heedless of the blizzard swallowing all around them, and in time themselves.
All She would ask is that when they come across those strangers and familiar kin in the cold, shepherding embers both great and small - that they would share their light and warmth - to do unto them as She did for you.
And in this way, perhaps the galaxy can come to know light again.
(Encourages ethos of info-technological sharing, education and uplift with other civilisations where possible, Xenos and human, strange and familiar, to give them the same chance and trust to change their own fates, for better and for worse, as Vita gave to human Denvans - starting with their closest neighbours, the Vellkar, but looking further beyond as well.)

I've tried to design this request so that:
- It gives a useful trait (spreading and encouraging techno-industrial progress, aid, uplift and improvement in neighbouring civilisations and nations that are not ontologically hostile to Denva's continued existence),
- Will be impactful beyond the immediately applicable use case (uplifting the Vellkar),
- Leaving space for aided/uplifted civilisation the chance/ability to have some self-determination and control over their destiny (by giving them the tools and knowledge without strong imperatives or commands, following our example in helping Denva) and thus hopefully avoiding more paternalistic/imperialist overtures that could come with such efforts,
- Balanced by the focus/specialisation of the trait as well as lack of selectivity (while they would still have limits and criteria which would wax and wane, generally they would err on the side of providing more tech and material aid than less), which I'd argue is thematically fitting the idea they are following our example, daring to empower others with gifts and bounty of science and industry, to believe in the good people can do and the responsibility they can uphold, not fear how they might fall short.

They would rather burn their hand than never risk reaching out to try.

@Neablis, would this proposal work, or is it too open-ended, confusingly worded, etc.? Also, thanks for the great chapter!

As always, everyone interested feel free to use all or part of this proposal or rework it in any way you'd like. I'm going to go to sleep now but I'll read and try to respond to any suggestions or questions in the morning.
 
10ebbor10 said:
So, what we're doing here is we're rendering 99% of society economically obsolete, and allowing power to be concentrated into a tiny, tiny, group of people.
A tiny, tiny group of people who will be motivated to keep the others out of their circle, because the more people they let in, the more people will need to be mortal.
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We could always ask Denva to unite and throw "No Gods, No Masters" at them as a principle. Maybe adapted to "No Kings, No Masters" if we really want to keep the "God in the Throne" option open.

Personally, I think we want to ask them to develop machine spirit technology and to unify like that. Then we give them that extra help and ask for the military alliance because egads that's going to be a problem.
 
Hm.
Neablis said:
-[] Scrapcode-resistant Psychic shielding (100 RP) You understand how scrapcode attacks psychic shielding better, and can tune your shields to be more resistant to attacks from scrapcode (Gives your shields improved defense against scrapcode, may unlock techs for even further improved defenses, or broadened defenses against specific entities)
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Hey @Neablis , would this apply automatically to our existing shields? "Gives your shields" seems to imply the former, but I'd like to be sure.

If it's not automatic, what kind of price range are we looking at for refits? Does it increase the price of new construction?
 
Ok for Denva doing specific tech research why is everyone looking at base technology stuff that we might want to research ourselves like machine spirits do we really want to stop researching it? no because we have Anexa instead i think we want them to research a replacement in an area that if we're not careful could cause all sorts of problems ground infantry.

Armies of troops that dissolve when killed? The smart will be asking very pointed questions that have answers that will cause panic right now we don't want panic from the imperium Nihlus because that will pull armies from critical battle zones to attack us lose-lose even if we win not to mention other factions opinions on AI

A Knight Walker turns a group of engineers and a soldier into a company it's not something we are planning on researching anytime soon.
 
Can we help out the local xenos before leaving? Can we help them abd leave in the same turn?


By gelp i mean give them a safe way to communicate, and an alibi if the imperium checks up again.


With alibi i mean "evidence that they are abhumans, or a biologis project. Definitly not xenos, no way.
 
LightLan said:
Probably depends on the roll when we research it?
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He can still say what those outcomes are though. I'm comparing it to "Machine Spirit Shipboard Manufactories (100 RP)", which based on the factory manufacturing spirit tech we just got will probably require refits to use. If we can apply scrapcode resistance in some way this turn, I think we should - and with it being 100RP, Bongo research being 100RP, and efficient shields being part of the Denva military starter pack rather than being for the scrapcode generator specifically, that stays in Alectai's 200RP limit.

I just need to know the details of how it applies first to make any needed adjustments.
 
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