Traveller, The Rise of Empire: A Naval Design, Procurement and Command Quest
- Thread starter 4WheelSword
- Start date
- Original Art Quest Sci-Fi
On our ship sheets missiles are listed under ammunition, while supplies are listed under cargo. I'm pretty sure it's possible to carry missiles in spaces designated for cargo, but for each missile transported there's less, say, fresh chocolate bars for crews to snack on. It might become an issue if operate far from Home and don't account for it.Missiles are supplies.
4WheelSword
The original N-body Problem
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- It/She/They
The FSS has 80 tons of ships supplies (enough to supply an interstellar cruiser for 8 months) and four-hundred additional tons of storage.
I wouldn't worry about it's utility as a logs ship.
I wouldn't worry about it's utility as a logs ship.
Can you comment on how a fight between the two Escort designs might go? Or is that getting too involved with the voting process for a QM?
If nothing else, showing a typical combat encounter between these two ships would be really helpful for understanding the combat system better. Since rolls are generally not shown to us during the quest, the system can be difficult to grasp for people not familiar with Traveller.
Missiles are supplies.
We won't be having our logistics ship rearming in the middle of combat, and it would take time to have the escort leave formation, form up with the logistics ship, rearm, and then travel back to the combat zone.
Coyote Niff
the most transbian obligate scavenger on the 'net!
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- Misery!
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- She/Her
Why do multiple modern NATO states field both strike fighters and cruise missile bombers, even though both fire long-range guided air-to-ground missiles? Because the type of craft matters-how long it can fly, where it can go, how much it can carry-just as much as their common munitions.
Those NATO strike fighters and bombers are way different in size and weight, they are thus very different craft as you rightly point out. But here you are proposing one missile escort craft with a weight of 500 tonnes, and another of 850 tonnes. That is way less of a weight and size difference than in those NATO planes.
How would you differentiate the two with only 350 tonnes of difference to work with? What capability would the Bodkin have, that the lighter craft would lack?
- Location
- Here, there, everywhere.
[X] Operation Tempest's End
I support it because it puts more tonnage in the system, we need the monitor to act as a hard counter to the Dreadrocks if they are completely in play. Also I think its prudent to ask if we still have any hulls in the Junta and Dynasty shipyards.
I also don't understand the obsession with multi role ships, we needed a ship designed to swat fighters down and its what we got.
I support it because it puts more tonnage in the system, we need the monitor to act as a hard counter to the Dreadrocks if they are completely in play. Also I think its prudent to ask if we still have any hulls in the Junta and Dynasty shipyards.
I also don't understand the obsession with multi role ships, we needed a ship designed to swat fighters down and its what we got.
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Multi-roles make a fair bit of sense due to a lack of hulls and the way Jump time makes it a pain in the ass to reinforce. But we aren't trying to design a general purpose patrol vessel, we're trying to make as good of a PD-Screen ship as we can so there's no reason to shove as much stuff as we can into it if that's just going to make it worse at it's actual job.
Night
Widow Null
- Location
- Hoff
To do one thing only and well is to be useless at everything else. The first time you get clapped by a threat you're not armed for is the beginning of multi-role design appreciation.
[X]OPLAN: Bowshot
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4WheelSword
The original N-body Problem
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- It/She/They
I think... Hmm. I'm gonna say not this time (especially because it's late) but if you remind me on later comparisons, I will try to give an estimate of... combat effectiveness.
The funny thing is, I completely agree with this statement, but I am voting for the opposite design. The way I see it, the Sloop does not one thing only, but three things well: point defense, scouting and patrolling. And even purely in combat, it is a versatile ship that may lack punching power but more than makes up for that in speed, range and defenses. It is damned hard to actually hit and pin down, which allows it do several roles such as anti-fighter duty, missile defense and hit-and-run tactics. It's a good design, with clear strengths.
It's honestly fascinating that we can all make similar arguments and say we have the same priorities, yet come to completely opposite conclusions.
Doubloon
Quelle horreur!
So, in addition to whatever this clusterfuck in S'Taxu is, there are a lot of pots we have left on the backburner. I'm gonna try to summarize those for the benefit of the playerbase so we don't just forget to follow up on them.
MANDATES
If anyone can think of more things to add to this list, post a reply, please.
MANDATES
- Develop an FLF carrier. We have an assault shuttle, now we just need a boat to put it in. We may also want to develop a fighter carrier capability, either standalone or as a part of the FLF carrier.
- Select and develop site(s) for mining. We are asked to provide security. The most promising sites would seem to be Heimdall (asteroid belt, two gas giants with moons) and Shambhala (a ton of asteroid belts). However...
- Hermosa is within two jumps of Heimdall. The Nova Refugians have told us they are authoritarian, technologically advanced, and "well-developed." Whatever that means. It could be that Hermosa is merely the fringe of a larger empire, who knows.
- The implication is that any mining bases we build in Heimdall or Shambhala should be accompanied by a well-manned fleet base, to provide defense.
- It may be in our interest to send a full expedition of discovery once the diplomatic courier is done. It may be a better idea to simply squat in Heimdall, hope they don't show up, and tell them to go away if they do.
- Speaking of Nova Refugio, we should figure out a policy to take with them. Trade partners? Protectorate status? Do we offer them humanitarian aid? To protect them from the Hermosans, as a carrot for any of the above options or ones unstated?
- We have committed to building a station near (02, -01) for trade and diplomacy with the Aslan. Should this be a civilian installation, or do we develop this as a fleet base?
- It seems like we could learn a lot about fighting from them. The GM has already heard us out on my "get military advisors" idea, it just hasn't fired off yet. They could be valuable allies, or perhaps a source of mercenaries.
- Also in Nova Refugio, there's an anomalous planet (described in update 4-5) with a very dense atmosphere. We have designed a shuttle variant capable of withstanding the pressure, but I don't know that it has been built. We have yet to explore it.
- The Society for Interplanetary Science is building a research station to learn about the pre-industrial society on Shambhala-7. In addition to what we might learn (same system as the data cache??) it seems unwise to not have defenses patrolling there.
- The prison moon in (02, -03) which I am tentatively calling "Piranesi." Who built it? Who's being held there, and why? How did automated beacons hack our systems to give us the heads up? Does that mean they share a computer architecture with us? It certainly suggests we share a language.
- We still know very little about our own origins (the plague, the slowboat colony ship) or the origins of the people in S'Taxu and Xyri. What's up with that?
If anyone can think of more things to add to this list, post a reply, please.
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[X] Operation Tempest's End
We possibly fucked-up in S'Taxu, as we did not make much effort to learn about the factions there beyond the initial diplomacy. Having a better understanding of what they (each and all of them) want, what grudges they bear, how centralized they are and so on would possibly let us anticipate the crisis and ideally preempt it.
While Xyri seems to be much less volatile, it could still pay to send there more diplomats and possibly spies. Xyri should still have some advanced technology - maybe we could steal a bit (or less agressively, find a more willing seller)? Or at least, be more aware of who could be a dangerous dumbass in that system and what they can do.
Similarly the Aslan - their society is definitely not a monolith. It's important to learn how many Tao'(s) are in the systems that we know about, and what are their dispositions. Which ones are likely to seek expansion or war? Which ones could be in precarious position and could offer us better trade deal? How many more ahriy's are around there, how many more Aslan worlds?
Yeah. We should build the Deep Diver for 4-5, if the SIS haven't yet (with the help of civilian industries). We should also send a Deep Diver (or few of them) to Shambala-7, to spy at Shambalans from under the water. We also should put modern sensors on the Deep Divers.
We also should design a courier/aviso ship, that would be carrying news (and spies, and mail, and whatnot) between Home, S'Taxu/Xyri, and our stations (including the possible SIS one). We already need some regular courier network, between factional conflicts in neighbour systems, Hermosa, Aslan, and potential prison planet owners. Too many possible flare-ups that should be watched for.
We possibly fucked-up in S'Taxu, as we did not make much effort to learn about the factions there beyond the initial diplomacy. Having a better understanding of what they (each and all of them) want, what grudges they bear, how centralized they are and so on would possibly let us anticipate the crisis and ideally preempt it.
While Xyri seems to be much less volatile, it could still pay to send there more diplomats and possibly spies. Xyri should still have some advanced technology - maybe we could steal a bit (or less agressively, find a more willing seller)? Or at least, be more aware of who could be a dangerous dumbass in that system and what they can do.
Similarly the Aslan - their society is definitely not a monolith. It's important to learn how many Tao'(s) are in the systems that we know about, and what are their dispositions. Which ones are likely to seek expansion or war? Which ones could be in precarious position and could offer us better trade deal? How many more ahriy's are around there, how many more Aslan worlds?
Yeah. We should build the Deep Diver for 4-5, if the SIS haven't yet (with the help of civilian industries). We should also send a Deep Diver (or few of them) to Shambala-7, to spy at Shambalans from under the water. We also should put modern sensors on the Deep Divers.
We also should design a courier/aviso ship, that would be carrying news (and spies, and mail, and whatnot) between Home, S'Taxu/Xyri, and our stations (including the possible SIS one). We already need some regular courier network, between factional conflicts in neighbour systems, Hermosa, Aslan, and potential prison planet owners. Too many possible flare-ups that should be watched for.
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Doubloon
Quelle horreur!
Maybe? I'm honestly not sure. On one hand, @4WheelSword has been a little tight-lipped about information. We have an embassy on Xyri and I can still name the things we know about them on one hand.
On the other hand, maybe this came as a surprise even to our contacts. We have a strong enough relationship with the PMC to let their industry into our design process. Did nothing seem amiss?
In either case, I know where our diplomacy ship is getting its first posting.
I believe @Rat King has also expressed a desire for a courier service. It's a good idea! Maybe we could fold in some cargo capacity, make it a merchant marine thing?
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5-8: Rethinking S'Taxu
4WheelSword
The original N-body Problem
- Pronouns
- It/She/They
Which of the above ships would the HSWS accept into service: The PMCA Frigate
We will respond by: Sending a force to ensure peace is re-established in S'Taxu.
The Escort
The PMCA Frigate design - or, from hereon out, the Frigate, Fast Escort - has been selected with some rather major modifications. First, the twin missile barbettes have been combined into a far more tonnage-hungry bay that occupies the forwards sections of the ship. This give it four additional tubes and the internal magazine of the bay increases the total combat load of the frigate to almost 400 missiles. Along with this the ship gains fast drives, a larger power plant, additional fuel to maintain the ships range, a reduced crew section that requires double-bunks and an infirmary for three that relies on at least one crew member being trained in first aid.
Fleet Assemblage
For the second time since the establishment of the Home Space Warfare Service, a fleet assembles at the 100D limit in preparation for departure for S'Taxu. This time it is seven ships, and this time it includes the most dangerous ship ever built by Home. The HSWS Caturix will lead a formation of four Interstellar Cruisers including the block II HSWS Ninurta, all supported by the Flotilla Supply Ship HSLS Lakapati and the Deep Space Surveyor HSWS Tishtrya operating as a courier.
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Three Weeks ago, HSWS Sakumo
"All stations report general quarters, Captain."
"Thank you. Scan, keep me looped in, I don't want an ugly surprise." The commander of the Interstellar Cruiser HSWS Sakumo, Captain Abdülkadir Nacar, sucks on a half empty packet of caff and narrows his eyes at the tac board. "Where are the reports from the-"
"Captain, we have missile launches on the track."
"Put it on the board. Turrets, weapons free. What've we got, scan."
"Multiple stations are launching, surface launches detected as well."
"Hmm," He grumbles, scratching at a fresh growth of stubble, "vectors?"
"Multiple intercept courses with the Sakumo, Sir."
"Figured. Comm, tell the Pallas we're engaged, nuclear launches detected. Time for them to get going."
"Copy." She switches channels on her set, "Warning Red, Warning Red. We have detected multiple missile launches against the surface and ourselves. Sensors report roman candles. Pallas you are advised to follow Scram procedures. Sakumo is defending."
The first salvo sweeps in, turrets picking off missiles, scan officer fooling two with EWAR tricks, but the last two slide through the defence net and slam into the forwards sections of the ship. Radiological alarms scream through the Sakumo's compartments and the DamCon team races through hatches to seal fuel leaks and close hull breaches. Another salvo appears and again a pair of missiles slide through the network and crack open a bulkhead. Two of the cruisers particle cannons track a station 8,000 kilometres away and split it apart with paired beams of concentrated protons.
A third cluster of missiles streak in towards the ship, more this time, a heavier density of firepower as multiple stations combine their launchers to see off the deadly threat in their midst. Another station is ripped in two by particle cannons before seven missiles ripple their explosions along the flank of the cruiser.
"Report!"
"Jump Drive off-line. Hull ruptured frames 4 and 7. Bay 2 is offline, turret 2, 5 also offline. Multiple reports of causalities."
"Conn, give me full speed out of orbit. Gunners-"
Another series of explosions rock the cruiser, sending her tumbling before her drives can bring her back under control. She sets a course out of orbit, trailing debris and fuel behind her, and her plates quickly push her away from the nearby planet. The XO, standing in for a wounded Captain, sets a course for the gas giant labelled S'Taxu-6 and hopes the ship isn't too badly to make it.
Operation Bowshot
The Home Space Warfare Service force arrives in the system in the following order; The DSS HSWS Tishtrya arrives first, a vanguard for the other ships. She is trailed by the HSWS Sekhmet by two hours, and the HSWS Apedemak by another two hours. They settle in to wait for the others, observing the inner system on long range scans the whole time. It takes six hours for the HSWS Caturix and the HSWS Ninurta to slide into the system, and another two for the last of the cruisers and the HSLS Lakapati to enter the formation. Finally assembling some twelve hours after first penetration, the fleet group breaks radio silence and makes contact with several elements that have been trying to ping them ever since the Tishtrya entered the system.
The first contact is with HSWS Sakumo which has retreated far further than the sixth planet. She is deep in Junta space, docked with a civilian yard. Contact is made with her executive officer who delivers the following report:
"Senior Lieutenant Ulviye Terzi, acting captain of the HSWS Sakumo. The People's Military Council have offered us refuge and safety over the past three weeks after combat left our ship incapable of safe jump travel. We came under fire from Dynast nuclear weapons platforms without warning or trespass. We understand the PMCS Indefatigable now has control of the main worlds orbitals and we can only assume our watch crews are dead or captured. We have eleven souls aboard and another four in a PMC medical facility. A list of the dead will be transmitted along with this message. We're... I'm glad you're here."
Second contact is made with the PMCS Indefatigable, a massive rock almost the size of the HSWS Caturix, in orbit around S'Taxu-4. The orbitals are littered with the wreckage of nuclear weapon stations and several identifiable armour plates from an HSWS cruiser. The surface of the planet is dark with ash clouds - it would appear the nuclear weapons were not limited to space.
"Inbound HSWS force, please identify. We've had a bit of trouble here and we'd like to know if you're coming in guns hot or if we can stand down our crew. I think my XO would really like to get some sleep."
A second message arrives after reassurances are given that the flotilla hasn't come looking for a fight unless given one.
"Glad to have you here then. Everything's a bit of a mess. We have aid and recovery teams on the surface but nuclear weapons and city-domes don't exactly mix well. The perpetrators are in the brig, if you want to know - the last few members of the chambrestrongs are aboard the Indefatigable and under heavy guard. Oh, and we have a couple of your station crews as well. Only seven of them I'm afraid. They volunteered to help on the surface. We can have them with you in a day or so."
A third message is received not from a ship, but from a repeater satellite deep in the system, orbiting remarkably close to the main star. It reads:
"-are nothing more than victims of this same attack. There is no more reason for the rightful rules to destroy their own system as there is for an entire people to commit suicide. The Junta hopes that we will find ourselves confused in this and turn against each other. Hold, my people, Hold and you will find yourselves on the side of justice. We are nothing-" Message repeats.
The HSWS Tishtrya takes all this information, collates it into a massive docket of papers, and slips back into jump space to return for Home. Meanwhile, the flotilla settles in for the difficult job of search, rescue and aid - though a pair of cruisers heads for the outer system to check on the Sakumo in person. Better safe than sorry, after all.
There is a great deal to understand and review here, but one thing is obvious to the Citizens Council - the Chambrestrong Dynasty will not enjoy a fair trial in S'Taxu. The HSWS must find a way to have them transferred to Home while investigations are ongoing. How will this be achieved?
[ ] Appeal to the PMC's leaders to have them moved out of S'Taxu until further notice.
[ ] Board the Indefatigable under false pretences and break them out.
[ ] Board the Indefatigable by force and break them out.
[ ] Other - write in.
We clearly need to reappraise our approach to peace in S'Taxu. What is the advice or recommendations of the HSWS?
[ ] We should withdraw from the system and cease cooperation with the PMC.
[ ] We should seize control of the system while the enemy is weakened and distracted.
[ ] We should improve cooperation and bring them closer into cooperation with Home.
[ ] Other - write in.
Any other comments on ongoing operations or operations that should be conducted in S'Taxy should be added here. You can get as deep into it or as light on information as you need:
[ ] Write in.
Please present any votes as a plan. Voting opens at
Oh, well, no more Chambrestrong Dynasty then. I stand corrected.
Welp. What's the scale of the destruction?
At this point, where's the need for that? Could as well do a Nuremberg trial analogue.
All-in-all, our watchdogs had the worst performance. None of them got a message out to us or prevented the launches. As such, we've failed in our duties as enforcers of the peace deal.
EDIT: Two potential inconsistencies. First, why was the Junta asteroid ship moving to cross the demarcation line? Second, our cruiser was fighting stations, but what about the four boats we've built for the Dynasts? Why haven't they picked off HSWS Sakumo while it was limping away from orbit?
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KleverKil'Vanya
Ortillery Operator
It kinda feels like all the negotiations were pointless, nothing helped and we had assets tied down for nothing, should have just shot at the start it seems.
The negotiations turned out rather well, it's just that afterwards we went with the 'Just Junta' option, which the Dynasts apparently read as us spurring them and decided to end it all.
EDIT: Anyways, aside from all other actions:
Any other comments on ongoing operations or operations that should be conducted in S'Taxy should be added here. You can get as deep into it or as light on information as you need:
[ ] Write in: Work on information flow within the HSWS. Ambiguous reports are useless at best and harmful at worst.
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Rat King
Izutsumi-pilled
I think it was always going to end like this unless the dynasts got everything they wanted. They were never who we should have backed or dealt with in the first place. But that's on the Council. The Junta, in the end, always had more to offer us. And apparently they now want to give nuclear butchers a "fair trial". Utter nonsense.
For the future the only real option is closer cooperation; attempting conquest now is both repugnant and likely to end badly.
We can appeal to them but I doubt that they'll hand them over. I am not going to order our spacers to die trying to break a bunch of war criminals out so the Council can feel better.
For the future the only real option is closer cooperation; attempting conquest now is both repugnant and likely to end badly.
We can appeal to them but I doubt that they'll hand them over. I am not going to order our spacers to die trying to break a bunch of war criminals out so the Council can feel better.
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[ ] Write-in: Create a Naval Intelligence Arm. Our information gathering is clearly deficient, and we cannot rely on Citizen COuncil to do it too, as the situation shows.
[ ] Write-in: Hire a lot of SIS people in intelligence arm, task them with getting more info on Shambala-7 and on Aslan. We are more interested in potential threats, obviously, but any info on Aslan is welcome.
[ ] Write-in: at this point we cannot trust noone on the S'Taxu situation. It is highly possible that a sort of coup happened inside the Chambestrong force. We need to get as many Chambestrong personnel as possible, and we should get our own sailors, including the ones that are supposedly on planet. Both groups should be interrogated. We need to learn what exactly had happened, why the Junta's asteroid ship was moving to S'Taxu exactly when the missiles were launched, and who gave the order to launch. Without thorough investigation we cannot make any good decision on this situation.
To clarify, we should not give anyone to Citizen Council. If our own investigation would show that Chambestrong are guilty and are behind the atatck, we should give them to S'Taxians. If they are not and this is some sort of "coup went wrong" or anything more complicated, we should decide what to do then.
I do not trust enough the Junta guys to just accept their evidence without investigating first.
[ ] Write-in: Hire a lot of SIS people in intelligence arm, task them with getting more info on Shambala-7 and on Aslan. We are more interested in potential threats, obviously, but any info on Aslan is welcome.
[ ] Write-in: at this point we cannot trust noone on the S'Taxu situation. It is highly possible that a sort of coup happened inside the Chambestrong force. We need to get as many Chambestrong personnel as possible, and we should get our own sailors, including the ones that are supposedly on planet. Both groups should be interrogated. We need to learn what exactly had happened, why the Junta's asteroid ship was moving to S'Taxu exactly when the missiles were launched, and who gave the order to launch. Without thorough investigation we cannot make any good decision on this situation.
To clarify, we should not give anyone to Citizen Council. If our own investigation would show that Chambestrong are guilty and are behind the atatck, we should give them to S'Taxians. If they are not and this is some sort of "coup went wrong" or anything more complicated, we should decide what to do then.
I do not trust enough the Junta guys to just accept their evidence without investigating first.
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Yeah I agree with the others. The Dynasts were always the wrong choice, we never got as much out of that alliance as we gave. Let them rot for all I care.
That said, we should be sure we understand the whole story, which would require at least getting to interrigate the surviving Dynasts. I don't understand why they suddenly became suicidal or desperate enough to do this.
That said, we should be sure we understand the whole story, which would require at least getting to interrigate the surviving Dynasts. I don't understand why they suddenly became suicidal or desperate enough to do this.
Rat King
Izutsumi-pilled
The repeater message around the main star might indicate other options. Either an internal schism with some die-hards deciding to take everyone down with them, with many of the other Dynasts not on-board or just as surprised.
Or the whole thing was a junta false flag, but I don't know if I necessarily buy that, either. We do need more information, though. As much as we can get. We need access to the surviving weapons crew and our surviving watchdog personnel.
Or the whole thing was a junta false flag, but I don't know if I necessarily buy that, either. We do need more information, though. As much as we can get. We need access to the surviving weapons crew and our surviving watchdog personnel.
The information is key here. Even if junta's false flag is not what happened, we need to investigate and rule that out. Otherwise we would have at least a faction inside our Citizen Council (who clearly like Chambestrongs and don't like Junta) who would be riding the "there was never an investigation, it was a false flag to take out the lawful rulers" horse, and would obstruct us in future. At the very least we need to safeguard ourselves against the dumbasses in our own Council (and safeguard the Council against themselves, possibly).
That's talking purely "pragmatically" here, without moral considerations (and moral considerations demand that we investigate first too)