Mmm, could be an option to put into heavier fighter then, to make it a bit of a sprinter when necessary.
Traveller, The Rise of Empire: A Naval Design, Procurement and Command Quest
- Thread starter 4WheelSword
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Mmm, could be an option to put into heavier fighter then, to make it a bit of a sprinter when necessary.
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To be honest I worked out the math that for 28 tons you can get 3 missile barbettes firing 4 missiles each volley for a total of 12 missiles per volley from a magazine of 120 missiles. Other than some laser turrets for point defense I don't think any armed landing vehicle needs more than that, I mean it's not like we're gonna send these things in without fleet cover. Anything that needs more than 120 ortillary missiles to soften it up can be dealt with by the fleet.
Night
Widow Null
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- Hoff
Do we even really have an idea of how we want the FLF to function? That would presumably inform our choices on the lander. Right now it is probably better to conceive of them as a raiding force, since we can't very well deliver decisive amounts of forces to the ground, but that may not be what we require or desire in the future either.
As it is, briefly put: fewer larger landing craft allow the delivery of an immediately coherent force that can more quickly organize and advance on its objectives, but they also come with less mobility in both the strictly heavier-to-maneuver sense but also in the sense of tactical mobility; they can land fewer places, they require more recon of the ground to determine its suitability, and they will find it more difficult in most cases to land against the enemy's will. Yet they also bring in artillery and mechanized units needed for sustained, heavy combat much more easily.
By contrast many relatively small landing craft deliver a less coherent force but are more mobile and also raise the possibility of a Little Groups of Paratroopers effect in which you have squads and even fire teams essentially running around engaging the enemy on their own initiative and blowing up targets of opportunity, creating chaos and obscuring your objectives of which you'll probably still get most. But the smaller craft demand higher training standards for both rapidly forming up and moving out and for the aggression needed to invoke LGP. They also have more trouble landing artillery and mechanized units, either at all or in a coherent way.
As it is, briefly put: fewer larger landing craft allow the delivery of an immediately coherent force that can more quickly organize and advance on its objectives, but they also come with less mobility in both the strictly heavier-to-maneuver sense but also in the sense of tactical mobility; they can land fewer places, they require more recon of the ground to determine its suitability, and they will find it more difficult in most cases to land against the enemy's will. Yet they also bring in artillery and mechanized units needed for sustained, heavy combat much more easily.
By contrast many relatively small landing craft deliver a less coherent force but are more mobile and also raise the possibility of a Little Groups of Paratroopers effect in which you have squads and even fire teams essentially running around engaging the enemy on their own initiative and blowing up targets of opportunity, creating chaos and obscuring your objectives of which you'll probably still get most. But the smaller craft demand higher training standards for both rapidly forming up and moving out and for the aggression needed to invoke LGP. They also have more trouble landing artillery and mechanized units, either at all or in a coherent way.
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- Location
- Australia
Question, do we know where the slow-boat flotilla/fleet's next colonisation target was planned to be when they departed home (as I'd assume they did some scouting astronomy while in the Home system for the most promising colony candidates), or where our particular slow-boat group previously settled, or has that knowledge been lost/corrupted with passage and upheavals of time?
Assuming they haven't received, developed or found significantly faster methods of slower-than-light (STL) propulsion or FTL jump-drives, could we retrace their "footsteps" to find and make contact with the colonies they have founded in the intervening centuries, and eventually trace their likely current position, "leapfrog" or "catch-up" to them with our scouting missions, and make contact and establish relations with them?
Additionally, could we use records of where colonies were previously founded to more effectively find human polities with our current knowledge (assuming they survived/still exist)?
Apologies if this has been answered/discussed before and I missed it, and thank you @4WheelSword for the wonderful question and any answers you can provide.
Doubloon
Quelle horreur!
Clearly, we've got to do a raid on the prison planet and free the incarcerated population. No gods! No masters! It's time for a...
...
But for real, who even knows? We're doing it because we're being asked to. Self-justifying, eh?
As for form factor, the 40-50 ton range seems perfectly adequate for landing companies. Bigger ships feel like too big an investment, space paratroopers (while technically possible with grav-packs) have most of the deep flaws that regular paratroopers do.
...
But for real, who even knows? We're doing it because we're being asked to. Self-justifying, eh?
As for form factor, the 40-50 ton range seems perfectly adequate for landing companies. Bigger ships feel like too big an investment, space paratroopers (while technically possible with grav-packs) have most of the deep flaws that regular paratroopers do.
4WheelSword
The original N-body Problem
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V much a corrupted with time situation. At some point, with enough time and scouting, I imagine you will find evidence of the ships path, which is exciting!
5-7: Roman Candles
4WheelSword
The original N-body Problem
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Please select two of the following choices: BMF's submission & PMCA's submission.
Select up to two of the following concepts of which a prototype will be produced for the Service: A 50-ton FLF assault ship & A 40-ton multi-role fighter-bomber streamlined for intra-atmospheric FLF support.
Noted for later: Attempt to contract the services of Aslan military advisors. The Service needs to know more about how fighter craft are practically used, and we know no better teachers than these curious aliens.
Sloops and Frigates
Two full design proposals are drawn up, one by a engineering team from S'Taxu and one from the local Bearings Machinery Firm. They are:
- The Bearings Machinery Firm 500-ton Escort and Patrol Sloop. Utilising a small hull studded with anti-fighter and anti-munition turrets, it is intended to be an absurdly fast, dangerous combatant that can't quite punch above its weight class (or even under it most of the time). However, what it lacks in anti-ship firepower it makes up for with being one of the most comfortable ships the Navy would ever produce. An internal Biosphere, an oversized mess, a functional library space and a full stateroom for every crew member would make it positively opulent compared to many of its larger siblings elsewhere in the fleet.
- The PMCA group's submission is a guided missile frigate which they hope can be reconfigured as a torpedo boat as and when the technology allows for it. As it is, the ship retains an armament of three laser turrets for shooting down fighters and incoming ordnance, while also being able to dispense eight missiles at a time. Virtual gunner programs allow the three gunnery crew to split their work between missile targeting and point-defence more effectively, and an over-sized reactor ensures that even if the plant is damaged the ship will still be able to operate at full strength for some time.
Which of the above ships would the HSWS accept into service:
[ ] The BMF Sloop
[ ] The PMCA Frigate
Prototyping
Two new small craft are being constructed deep in the factories and hangers that litter the surface of Home. The first is a 50-ton assault boat, a simplification of the 90-ton boarding shuttle that has been in use thus far. Retaining all the capabilities of its larger sibling, the 50-ton design is capable of controlled and un-controlled re-entry, as well as powered flight through the atmosphere and the void. Its cargo of 45 FLF infantry is not to be sniffed at either.
The 40-ton fighter is slightly more complex. A crew of two will pilot this massive machine, protected against the ravages of space with heat shielding and thick titanium-steel armour panelling. A fixed anti-ship missile launcher is fixed forwards, capable of engaging small targets and even large warships to deadly effect. A turreted beam laser protects the fighter from below and behind, defending against both surface AA batteries and pursuing interceptors. A 4,000 kilogram internal weapons bay allows for the mounting of air-to-ground sub-starship missiles, bombs and other ordnance that can be used in a ground strike role.
These two prototypes should fly somewhere around 09y00m00w, giving the HSWS plenty of time to argue over designing a ship that will be capable of carrying these remarkable machines.
What Could Possibly Go Wrong
S'Taxu System, Fourth Orbital
"Peoples Military Council Ship, this is the HSWS Pallas, you are not authorised to enter the inner system, please cease your present course."
-- A delay of several hours is logged.
"PMCS Indefatigable, you are still on course to breach the demarcation line, cease your present course and return to the outer system"
-- A second delay, shorter this time, is logged.
"Sakumo, this is Pallas. An out-system bandit is moving in, sending track."
"Tally that, Pallas, thank-you. One of their big boys is rolling in."
"Think the Dynasts have spotted it yet?"
"I guess we'll see in the next couple hours. Stand ready."
-- A delay of several hours is logged.
"Pallas, Sakumo, sending recorded Dynast traffic, please advise"
-- Recording plays 'All you scut-merchants and cowards, you sailors in your pretty uniforms and your ugly ships, you wanted peace and you had it and you've thrown it away. Now you will see the error of your ways, now you will live with the consequences of your actions!"
"Get a flash from the station units and keep an eye on the dynast boats, Sakumo. Looks like things are heating up."
"Copy, Pallas." Channel Switches "HSWS Sakumo to all station-side HSWS units, squawk flash and update." HSWS Ships beat to quarters, assuming combat readiness.
-- A delay is logged, of minutes rather than hours.
"Warning Red, Warning Red. We have detected multiple missile launches against the surface and ourselves. Sensors report roman candles. Pallas you are advised to follow Scram procedures. Sakumo is defending."
-- HSWS Pallas receives log-dump from HSWS Sakumo as she prepares her jump drive and manoeuvres to the 100D limit. Long range sensors report multiple nuclear detonations, though the resolution levels fail to capture whether the bursts are atmospheric or vacuum. HSWS Pallas translates out of system before anything more can be learned.
"That was a week ago. Whatever has happened in the last week we can't possibly know, but someone in the inner system was tossing nukes around." Captain Solmaz Kaya, Commanding officer of the HSWS Pallas, finishes their report.
"Thank-you, Captain. You can leave." The Captain salutes crisply, turns on their heel and marches out of the committee room. "Well, folks, it looks like the cold war got hot. What are we doing to do?"
We will respond by:
[ ] Sending a force to ensure peace is re-established in S'Taxu. What ships?
[ ] Sending a scout to see what is happening after two weeks.
[ ] Ignore their petty squabbling. We have more important matters to attend to. Which?
[ ] Write-in.
Huh. Bearings went overboard with crew comforts there. That said, with 100 days of operation time, it makes an excellent long-term scout while still providing the point defense capabilities that we required. No to mention, with the war sparking in S'taxu, there's no real choice but to go for Home-based design. Bearings is the clear winner.
Roman candles? I don't know that term, what are those?
Seems to me that some ambitious Junta commander took matters into his own hands. It overall doesn't look as if the whole Junta is behind the attack. It still changes little for us, as we must intervene according to our doctrine.
This is of course too little, since HSWS Sakumo is in immediate danger.
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Night
Widow Null
- Location
- Hoff
I note that it's ambiguous who launched. The Dynast transmission is consistent with somebody about to throw a self-destructive fit.
I don't think we have a choice but to send whatever isn't needed for home defense. Promises were made, guarantees given. There are other powers beyond the PMC and Dynasts those were made to.
I don't think we have a choice but to send whatever isn't needed for home defense. Promises were made, guarantees given. There are other powers beyond the PMC and Dynasts those were made to.
[ ] The PMCA Frigate
This seems like the better design to me. Only a reduction of a single laser turret compared to the other design but it actually comes with an offensive punch with it's missiles.
[ ] Sending a force to ensure peace is re-established in S'Taxu. What ships?
I think it's time for our Monitor to have it's first deployment, with a suitable escort. We need to overawe and dominate whatever conflict is currently happening.
This seems like the better design to me. Only a reduction of a single laser turret compared to the other design but it actually comes with an offensive punch with it's missiles.
[ ] Sending a force to ensure peace is re-established in S'Taxu. What ships?
I think it's time for our Monitor to have it's first deployment, with a suitable escort. We need to overawe and dominate whatever conflict is currently happening.
It's the PMCS Indefatigable that crossed the demarcation line. It's one of the Junta's asteroid ships. Plus notice the transmission said, 'you wanted peace and you had it and you've thrown it away'. It was the Junta that had us broker the peace deal in S'taxu. I can see it being a rogue Junta officer, but I can't see the nukes belonging to other factions.
Yes. The Monitor, all the ICs that aren't occupied in Xyri or elsewhere, the non-flotilla DSS to serve as an observer for the conflict, plus an FSS to fuel the Monitor.
No sandcasters though. S'taxu's favourite weapons are missiles, so those guys neglected to install defences against beam weapons.
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4WheelSword
The original N-body Problem
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Vote opens at 1500BST, I forgot to include that.
Brevity code for nuclear tipped missiles.
Can't we just do a write-in and tell Bearings to tone back the crew comforts and use the weight for adding missiles or more jump fuel instead? Seriously, those staterooms are using 50 tons of space, while the missiles in the other design only use 30 tons?
Actually, both designs give staterooms for the whole crew? Is this something that is actually needed? You'd think the lower-ranks at least could sleep in bunk beds.
Note that the Bearings design is much faster. I really prefer it for the speed.
Night
Widow Null
- Location
- Hoff
"You wanted peace and you've thrown it away" is something you say as a threat, and a justification for going for your gun. The PMC ship did not transmit at any point, and the dialogue specifically says "someone" when it talks about who was throwing nukes.
The Dynasts have been noted to have an orbital-based nuclear arsenal in the past, and it came up during the treaty. I doubt they went full Operation Spoilsport and nuked their own planet, but they could, and it was what kept the PMC's heavies away from the planet before. We have to deal with capabilities until we actually know intentions. Both sides were capable.
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It didn't contact us, it could've spoken with the Dynasts. Plus, we control Dynasts launch capabilities as per the peace deal. Granted, it might be that the Dynasts installed their agent as a commander of one of the asteroid ships and attacked themselves to provoke a reaction from us, but that I don't consider that probable. We'll need to send an intervention taskforce and assert peace regardless what happened.
I'll do that. Except, the original vote called for lasers, so I'll have that.
[ ] Plan Operation Tempest's End
-[ ] Sending a force to ensure peace is re-established in S'Taxu. What ships?
--[ ] 1x Monitor, 5x IC, 1x FSS, 1x DSS
---[ ] FSS remains in S'taxu until the Monitor can be safely refuelled and basic intel about the war can be received from HSWS Sakumo or gathered. It then jumps back to Home with news.
---[ ] Primary objective is remove threats to S'Taxu-4. Secondary objectives is link up with HSWS Sakumo and assess the scale of the damage to S'Taxu-4 to prepare for the relief effort. Tertiary objective is to secure S'taxu yards from being destroyed.
-[ ] The BMF Sloop
--[ ] With modifications. Remove the biosphere & libraries. Add a main laser weapon. If able, add drop tanks to provide for 2+2 range.
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I'm otherwise ok with this, but have a few questions. What is meant with "main laser weapon"? A fifth turret? Anything larger than that, there is not enough power for.
Also, why are you removing the libraries as well? They use no power, and the tonnage is not needed. If anything, I'd replace the library with an infirmary or even space for some marines/prisoners, since we intend this to double as a patrol craft.
Yes, the power plant would need to be expanded accordingly.
I think just the common areas are fine? It serves a similar purpose and we don't want the small frigate to become the most desireable posting in our fleet. But I can make it a conditional cut, if more space is needed.
BTW, what would be the best designation for the class? Interstellar Patrol Frigate?
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Is that possible? I thought it was already as big as can be for that size of ship, Bearings was said to have really put efforts into that.
I was not thinking about crew comforts, but about using the weight for something useful for patrol missions. Maybe of allowing it to carry marines/space border guards or to provide medical care in border areas? It's going to be our smallest, fastest jump-capable ship, so letting it be used as a "space ambulance" would not be a terrible idea in my opinion.
That said, can this ship dock with other ships in space or enter planetary orbits? Ship-to-ship docking capability at least would be highly desireable for a patrol craft role.
4WheelSword
The original N-body Problem
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The power plant can get a bit bigger, but i'm concerned bout what it would power. The only larger energy weapons is a particle beam, and we could probably fit a bay but that's not a laser.
Wiadi
Uncompromising Radical Leftist
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- Something Clever
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@4WheelSword just to be clear, to the extent of our knowledge, did the Dynasts have any remaining independent access to orbital missile platforms? My understanding was that the peace deal left us operating those, but I'd like to confirm.
Interstellar Interdiction Frigate/Sloop?
Bearings is 100% the ship we should take, with a couple of caveats. Mainly that the library and biosphere should be swapped out for a brig/infirmary/boarding equipment/barracks space or some combination there-of. The assault shuttle looks like a regular combat taxi, no comment. The 40-ton Fighter Bomber I think is going to suck in its fighter role. It doesn't really have the speed to intercept any other fighters and It may even suffer in atmo against ground side defenses. And lastly our response should be with military force, definitely the Monitor, FSS, and a few cruisers. The real question is how many cruisers are seen as acceptable to send and how many to keep back with the two destroyers.
Night
Widow Null
- Location
- Hoff
Those stations were shared, between several powers, and as they didn't report combat readiness to the Pallas we don't know if they reached it. This also leaves aside the Dynasts being fully capable of still manufacturing ground-based silos. For that matter, the argument the PMC ship communicated with the Dynasts and we didn't copy it but we did copy the transmission of the Dynasts to the ship is...a little sketchy on its face.
There has always been an element of petulance to the Dynast's descriptions of the situation, and now is no different. Even their reaction of "you've thrown peace away" here was honestly extremist, escalatory, and final for what was, at that point, a border violation. We really can't rule out that it's boiled over and somebody's decided "once and for all".